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Post by fuglyville on Jul 7, 2016 18:35:36 GMT -6
If antis are removed from juries, then it is pros that are letting these scumbags off light. That's all I was saying. Actually, if a juror believes death is the appropriate punishment for murder in all circumstances, as true pros do, he can't get on a capital jury, either. Another reason to repeal the Eighth Amendment. I'd say that's a pretty good reason to keep the 8th amendment. The DP is never necessary, and in a lot of cases it's even less of a necessity.
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Post by fuglyville on Jul 7, 2016 18:33:30 GMT -6
You and Whitediamonds are not even close to equal. After all she didn't enter this forum to argue her point with a lie, as you did and what a horrendous lie you arrived with. That's right fugly, you have clouded your whole debate from the very beginning with a terrible terrible lie. Not just one lie but many many lies. Now go away. You are totally irrelevant. You have no evidence to back up your statement that I lied, yet you seem to cling to it. Like a comfort blanket?
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 29, 2016 18:04:18 GMT -6
A jury has - in the U.S., at least - a given right to find a defendant not guilty, even if they find guilt proven beyond reasonable doubt. But: They're not informed about this and the judge has no duty to let them know. How is this not a bigger issue?
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 29, 2016 17:54:32 GMT -6
Not if they just made a dopey decision while under the influence. Only someone with an abandoned or malignant heart would decide to BE under the influence. Hang them in the public square, draw, quarter and flay them alive. The 8th Amendment might have something to say about that, but it seems that you only care about the laws you like.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 29, 2016 17:52:18 GMT -6
Before an execution, most inmates are put on death watch - ostensibly to "protect" the inmate from suicide. When the inmate is reasonably sure that he or she will die anyway - wouldn't it be easier to let them pass away on their own terms? The death watch process is invasive, resource-intensive and - I'd say - unnecessary. If inmates have a high degree of suicidal ideation, they should be treated for that - not caged like an animal under 24-hour surveillance.
Yes, suicidal inmates are a huge problem - but for the inmate, it's better to pass away on one's own terms than to suffer through the spectacle of an execution.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 8, 2016 5:29:47 GMT -6
If that is so, than no laws or justice should be applied to any crime or sentencing. Again you left out the important pro's of the DP position, not a surprise. But seeing as you have ignored the equally important cons of the DP position, I guess that makes us equals
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:53:53 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. An important advantage of the death penalty is that is that it helps murderers recognized the significance of their crimes and helps them to focus on their need to save their souls. Even anti-DP crusader Helen Prejean recognized this advantage. Murderers about to be executed have sometimes alluded to that benefit. The fact that people who are about to die reconsider their way of life and their actions are a well-known fact, but hardly evidence in favour of killing them. If rehabilitation was the goal, this would be of paramount importance - but as long as people like you wants them to die, I fail to see how this matters.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:50:48 GMT -6
The drain on public funds caused by the devotion to murderers is not reduced by eliminating the death penalty. Almost all resources currently expended on preventing the just execution of murderers would immediately be transferred to getting convicted murderers back on the street as quickly as possible. Even before the abolition of the DP, anti-DP crusaders are deeply involved in the elimination of life without parole, referring to LWOP as "the other death penalty." At least one anti-DP crusader has admitted that LWOP was always a fraud, intended only to ease the transition from the DP to early release of murderers. An unattributed quote from an anti-DP crusader is hardly evidence for anything - and the slippery slope argument is an awful one.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:48:02 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!! An important advantage of the death penalty is that it prevents murderers from killing again. The U.S. has a disgusting rate of reoffending, despite being true fans of the DP. Statistics from other countries are significant evidence that avoiding reoffending without the death penalty is perfectly possible.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:45:33 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!!! The most important benefit of the death penalty is that it demonstrates a quest (however weak) for justice. Justice is not fixed and decided - it could mean whatever you want it to mean, and your definition of justice is no more valid than anyone elses. The opinion that the death penalty equals justice is still merely an opinion. Even if it does give you the feeling of justice, that's not necessarily a valid reason - justice for the sake of justice alone is not a worthy goal.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:42:00 GMT -6
The toll on people involved in the judicial process is higher when there is no death penalty for murder. That is because they still face the same negative consequences during the initial trial and then have to face it again at every parole hearing. As long as LWOP is an alternative, there's no parole hearings - and without the death penalty, you're free from the very real suffering the execution causes for those directly involved in it; guards, executioners and the friends and relatives of the inmate.
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Post by fuglyville on May 28, 2016 10:34:39 GMT -6
Cons: The death penalty doesn't deter further murders It's a huge drain on limited public funds Innocent people have been executed before and will be executed again It's a huge toll on those involved in the process. It's incredibly biased against African-Americans and the poor.
Pros: Apparently, watching other people die makes some people happy
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 22, 2015 18:02:20 GMT -6
Given that people have ended up with barking, I guess we can conclude that the death penalty is as pointless as this discussion. Oh fugly, you screwed up nasty little scumpal. The DP isn't pointless. This thread is. who started it anway? That's right it was you. Thread and fugly completely pointless. In the long run, we're all pointless and tiny disturbances - so let's make the best of it while we can PS: I've missed you too
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 21, 2015 15:28:15 GMT -6
Given that people have ended up with barking, I guess we can conclude that the death penalty is as pointless as this discussion.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 19, 2015 18:05:55 GMT -6
Seriously, though - if you're going to kill someone, the least you could do is to give them some good beer. Their refusal was uncalled for.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 11, 2015 16:23:03 GMT -6
Think about this. It's none of your dam business. You live in Norway, nothing we do here affects you at all. Now to the questions you have decided to put upon us. They have to take extraordinary measures because of the likes of you. None of this would be happening if it wasn't for radical antis doing whatever they can to fu(k the system up. Like I said before, CREATE A SITUATION AND THEN BYTCH ABOUT THE SITUATION YOU CREATED." IOW, it's people like you that have created all of this crap. SO STFU. Is seeing people murdered and absolutely no consequences for the ones that murder, REALLY THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU AND WHY? Is it because your panties get wet over murderers??? Is seeing innocent people murdered really all that awesome? Is your agenda that important that innocent people are brutally murdered? Btw, if you would get your way and the DP would be outlawed. The first horrendous murder, the people would be voting the DP back in. Get it, we can do that here. We are not controlled by the UN or the EU or whatever other idiots are controlling you. I guess I'm part fascinated, and part scared by how people such as yourself can balance being intelligent and decent people with being cruel, vicious, heartless monsters. And yes, the U.S. is its own boss - which is why it's one of the most thoroughly *screwed*-up countries in the history of mankind.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 11, 2015 13:09:26 GMT -6
States has turned to extraordinary measures for the sake of killing people. Considering the amount of better things those funds could have been used for - such as preventing crime from happening in the first place - is it really worth it? Is seeing people die really that awesome?
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 11, 2015 13:04:32 GMT -6
There is one vital difference - policemen, firefighters and doctors actually serve an important purpose in society; that's more than you could say for an executioner. And no, they should not. Why? The execution is not a given, natural consequence of their actions - an execution is a willed act, both by society and those who carry it out. Yes, there are still some states whose laws condone the death penalty - but those laws are made by people, and they can be changed by people. Those who keep the death penalty on the books, those who dole out death sentences, those who confirm them and those that carry it out - they are all part of the responsibility. [/quote] Are you suggesting that corrections officers do not serve an important purpose to society ? I consider that corrections officers play a vital role in society, they protect us from those who have and may do us further harm. I see prisons and the treatment of offenders as a vital role of any society. The judicial system and law would in my view be entirely worthless if there were no prisons or correction institutions. Do you not see that there is a direct correlation between law, corrections institutions and corrections officers ? Execution is a direct consequence of actions taken by individuals - it is for this reason that, for example thieves are not executed. Further, it is a punishment attributed by an enacted and well known statute; are you of the opinion that the general populace does not know that there is a potential punishment by execution in certain states ? The actions of murderers, their actions, not the actions of society lead directly to the enactment of the law in effect. It is a direct consequence, to consider otherwise is somewhat perverse. To respond to your statement, I agree with you that an execution is willed, it is in fact a deliberate act, however, it is willed by the society where the law is in effect not by the corrections officers involved, do you accept this or are you suggesting that an execution is carried out at the will of the officers involved in the execution event themselves ? I fundamentally agree with your position that laws are made by people, that is certainly true. Do you accept that people make up society ? It is not possible for one individual (to my knowledge) to for example enact a law which would then be enacted, for example, could I enact a law which would result in the introduction of executions for shoplifters ? So the society who has enacted the law is ultimately responsible for the sentence - you seem to now accept that the society who has chosen to enact the punishment of execution is in fact responsible, not the individual corrections officers concerned or have I misunderstood you ? As whitediamonds pointed out, you have not responded to my final question - it would be polite to do so - so I will repeat it here in the hope you will respond - In terms of your view, don't you think that the condemned murderers due to their actions should "own" the guilt subsequently created, i.e. by society and by anyone required by the society they serve to conduct executions ? Do you accept that condemned murderers create many many victims as a result of their actions ? [/quote] I tried to answer your question, but perhaps I should have been clearer: No, I do not. Is that clear enough for you? To your other statements: Correctional officers are important for society and common welfare, their participation in carrying out executions are most definitely not - and by enabling those executions to take place, they share in the responsibility. Executions are nor necessary, nor do they improve common welfare, nor do they improve the security of the common, nor do they deter further murderers... Need I go on?
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 11, 2015 5:25:28 GMT -6
So what ? You don't care that the basis of the position is fatally flawed ? For example, soldiers, policemen, firefighters, doctors all face situations where they hold the life/fate of others in their hands. Are you suggesting that they would feel no guilt for decisions or actions they took during the course of their duties ? Are you trying to suggest that somehow law enforcement or corrections officers should be immune to their involvement ? It would be very worrying if such officers were required to have the moral character of an amoeba. In terms of your view, don't you think that the condemned murderers due to their actions should "own" the guilt subsequently created, i.e. by society and by anyone required by the society they serve to conduct executions ? Do you accept that condemned murderers create many many victims as a result of their actions ? There is one vital difference - policemen, firefighters and doctors actually serve an important purpose in society; that's more than you could say for an executioner. And no, they should not. Why? The execution is not a given, natural consequence of their actions - an execution is a willed act, both by society and those who carry it out. Yes, there are still some states whose laws condone the death penalty - but those laws are made by people, and they can be changed by people. Those who keep the death penalty on the books, those who dole out death sentences, those who confirm them and those that carry it out - they are all part of the responsibility.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 10, 2015 5:06:26 GMT -6
And why is the death penalty any worse than all the other forms of killing happening around the world on an hourly basis? If it's no worse, why do the executioners feel so guilty? Everyone who deals out death as a job - executioners, soldiers, certain police officers - feels guilt occasionally, and they should. When you make your living killing people, feeling guilty is a good thing - it means that you still have a functioning moral compass.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 9, 2015 8:23:33 GMT -6
Obviously I do! "Held accountable for their deeds", that to me doesn't sound at all like, subject to public scrutiny as you define it. Do you at least agree to abide by fugly's own words, when he tells you what he meant? Bernard stated what I was trying to say, just a bit more eloquently and precise.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 7, 2015 14:45:24 GMT -6
Yes they should when it is illegal. Whether it's illegal or not. Something being legal, doesn't mean it's right or moral - both slavery and the Holocaust was perfectly legal according to the laws of that time and place, but they're still tragedies. Point being: If you do horrible things in accordance with the laws of the land, they're still horrible things - and while you can't be prosecuted, you should still be held responsible for your actions by the people. If you can't deal with it, you shouldn't do horrible things - it's really pretty simple.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 7, 2015 14:39:02 GMT -6
In this day & age, Turkey today, public opinion now supports reintroducing the DP. Look it up easy to find. They also want to be part of the EU and that is never going to happen if they have a death penalty. There are some good things about the EU - this is one of them.
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Post by fuglyville on Nov 6, 2015 6:22:28 GMT -6
When you make your living killing people, you can't expect to be loved. And for the U.S., the veil of secrecy around the executioner is a major problem - just as everyone else involved in the judicial process(judges, district attorneys, wardens), they should be held responsible for their deeds.
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Post by fuglyville on Oct 25, 2015 9:15:31 GMT -6
There are dangerous and unstable elements in the Black Lives Matter movement, just as there are dangerous and unstable elements in the police. If this is to be solved without further bloodshed, the police have to acknowledge that there are significant racism issues and take significant measures to deal with this - just like the BlackLivesMatter movement have to clear up their acts and support constructive change rather than hate. Long story short: Both sides have their issues, and both are to blame. So if you're in trouble, call an angry Negro? If you're in trouble, the police should be of assistance - not making stuff worse. When the police is a bigger threat than criminals, something's wrong - and their guilt-tripping hardly helps.
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Post by fuglyville on Oct 25, 2015 9:07:55 GMT -6
Why Benard, you really have no patience. articles.baltimoresun.com/keyword/innocence-projectHere's one for you! I'm not suggesting anything, but they are very hidden due to the innocence project announcing every victory and swamping the web. Did you know in most states death penalty attorney's are paid big bucks to take these cases? So a 15 year old girl, that's ok Benard? The innocence project frames a mentally disabled man to free a murderer- that's ok Benard? I'll tell you this, I'm researching this in a way that can't be stopped, and I'm going to publicize both the victims and the amounts the defense attorneys made. You know how you define a scumbag? They lie, even if that means a 15 year old girl gets raped and brutally murdered. I can't wait to get the dollar amount the defense attorney's were paid in this one! I can tell you from the other cases I've researched it's usually around 500k. Please be patient Benard, more to come- promise. Your link leads to a menu page, not to a specific case. I assume that you wanted to present this case, however: articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-02-29/news/bs-md-ci-parrish-closings-20120229_1_innocence-project-bridget-shepherd-opening-statements Despite taking so long to present the first link, you appear to have rushed. The victim is a 15 year old boy. And the answer is no. Not ok. You were supposed to bring 12 cases of inmates exonerated of murder and consequently released from death row by the innocence project. This is a case where the murderer was not exonerated. He was retried, pled Alford, was consequently found guilty but was released after time served. And he wasn't on death row. So 0/12. Next. Don't hold your breath - I'm guessing this'll take some time. And rocky1 - for having no evidence at all for your statements, you're quite the optimist.
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Post by fuglyville on Oct 16, 2015 17:54:16 GMT -6
Well - until you provide citations, don't expect to be taken seriously. I could say you were a horse, and that would be just as true as your statement about the 12 cases. Fugly, why don't you supply proof of your dearly beloved? provide citations please.. That's right you don't have any. Therefore, no one take fugly the scumpal seriously. Btw, rocky did say to give him some time. Let's see we have given you like 4 years and still nothing. Like I said no one take fugly seriously, My bad it's been 5 years. The fact that you still cling to that as Linus to his blanket, says more about you than anything else - and it still doesn't make rocky1's statements any truer.
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Post by fuglyville on Oct 15, 2015 17:21:10 GMT -6
Patience Benard, I work for a living. Let's savor this, shall we! But you just stated you didn't have a position? Hmm, you sound very ADP here? Or did you lie again? Let's start with the overall facts, I'll give you the 12 cases when I want to, you don't demand anything from me. The ADP claim only about 1% of murderers murder again when released, is that your position, please don't say you don't have a position, I don't like liars, no one does. So be honest, your adamant ADP. Well - until you provide citations, don't expect to be taken seriously. I could say you were a horse, and that would be just as true as your statement about the 12 cases.
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Post by fuglyville on Oct 12, 2015 6:13:49 GMT -6
Yes, that link shows those freed murdered again, it was a link to the UK. I provided links to the US where due to paroled, technicalities, even exonerated, escapes, freed, etc, go on to murder yet again. I provided a fair balance with my links, US, UK. Lets not forget that the murders continue on by those already in prison too. Do you really need another or more links to prove that is factual? When one is already inside for murder* what ever his sentence, they only add more yrs to their time"" is justice? Come on " lets get real if it only brings the sentence to 150 yrs now, for murder again? Insane logic !!! If we keep them alone away from the general population inside, anit's will scream that is cruel & unusual treatment too? Insane logic yet again................ You were asked to provide a link backing up the claim, made by rocky and repeated by you, that the innocence project had caused the release of 12 people from death row who went on to commit murder. Since then, you have provided a baffling array of links from all around the world on people who were released a the end of their sentence, or released on appeal. But not the link you were asked to provide. Rocky, meanwhile, is aggressively trying to take the conversation elsewhere. I'd prefer it if you either backed up your claim, if you can, or say that you can't, if you can't. That's the way to have an honest discussion. ^ What he said - the burden of evidence, lies on the one who makes a statement. And when old cripples are executed - which happens, every now and then - I can't really see how they could possibly kill again.
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Post by fuglyville on Oct 10, 2015 13:23:35 GMT -6
I can speak from experience that many inmates sentenced death are active killers, Alfredo Prieto had escaped once, stabbed another prisoner, and was caught plotting the movements of a young gaurd for a possible assault. That's fact, that's one recent example. Considering ADP advocates were petitioning the Supreme Court to allow him access to the general population, claiming isolation was torture, you can bet there would have been more victims. In addition, the innocence project has gotten many off death row on technicalities, to date, and this was last year, the count was over a dozen murdered again when released. I know this, Alfredo Prieto will never again call my mother and brag about raping and killing her daughter, he will never again taunt the sanguist family with gang graffiti, and he will never stab another prisoner. That's just plain reality and fact. Solid proof the death penalty stops future suffering, and brings closure and justice to both society and grieving families. And, those let out of DR on technicalities, were not exonerated of the crime. Then over a dozen murdered when released !!! *citation needed* In other words: Do you have a source for your statement that released murderers kill again?
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