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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 16, 2009 0:40:13 GMT -6
And where they truly innocent? Or is this a case of what goes around comes around and a justice was served in a rather circuitous way?
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Post by Lauren on Mar 16, 2009 6:53:13 GMT -6
Wayne Felker may have been an innocent person who had been executed. However, since he was executed in '96, I think we have come a long way in DNA since then.
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Post by Tim S on Mar 16, 2009 8:16:58 GMT -6
If someone was proved to innocent after being executed, then it would mean the end of the dp. So therefore such proof is hardly likely to be forthcoming.
Then of course the question depends on what time-span you mean, because nobody can surely not aknowledge that hundreds of slaves were executed for being black or a slave while innocent.
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mst3k4evur
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 16, 2009 8:27:23 GMT -6
Wayne Felker may have been an innocent person who had been executed. However, since he was executed in '96, I think we have come a long way in DNA since then. Given Felker's criminal record, a 12 year sentence for rape, I can't consider him an innocent or undeserving of death. He simply got executed for the wrong crime.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 16, 2009 9:02:07 GMT -6
Wayne Felker may have been an innocent person who had been executed. However, since he was executed in '96, I think we have come a long way in DNA since then. Given Felker's criminal record, a 12 year sentence for rape, I can't consider him an innocent or undeserving of death. He simply got executed for the wrong crime. Despite his crime not being one that merited execution at the time? How strange!
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Post by Californian on Mar 16, 2009 9:13:32 GMT -6
Despite his crime not being one that merited execution at the time? How strange! Occasionally, justice is rough instead of perfect.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 9:22:36 GMT -6
If someone was proved to innocent after being executed, then it would mean the end of the dp. So therefore such proof is hardly likely to be forthcoming. Then of course the question depends on what time-span you mean, because nobody can surely not aknowledge that hundreds of slaves were executed for being black or a slave while innocent. Won't happen. They'll rationalize it by saying "he could have killed somebody...that way we'll make sure he doesn't"...
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 16, 2009 9:38:57 GMT -6
Despite his crime not being one that merited execution at the time? How strange! Occasionally, justice is rough instead of perfect. But it cannot be construed as legal justice in any sense of the word.
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Post by Californian on Mar 16, 2009 9:48:26 GMT -6
Occasionally, justice is rough instead of perfect. But it cannot be construed as legal justice in any sense of the word. I think that occasionally, it can. It doesn't bother me a bit that they whacked the guy.
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Mar 16, 2009 12:21:58 GMT -6
I agree, Agaveman. Post-Furman. I still giggle when anti's mention rodger coleman...
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 16, 2009 12:46:22 GMT -6
Given Felker's criminal record, a 12 year sentence for rape, I can't consider him an innocent or undeserving of death. He simply got executed for the wrong crime. Despite his crime not being one that merited execution at the time? How strange! Wrong. Rape should be and was a capital crime at the time he committed the rape for which he was imprisoned. Rape remained a capital crime in the state of Georgia until the 1977 Coker v Georgia decision. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coker_v._Georgia
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 14:07:51 GMT -6
It's a huge factor which finished the UK DP. For example Derek Bentley and Timothy Evans both were granted posthumous pardons. Their was considerable disquiet about the hangings of Ruth Ellis and James Hanratty too. It probably arose from the police being under excessive pressure to secure convictions at any expense. The abolition of the UK DP was before the time I remember but my Dad told me abolition resulted from too many doubtful convictions
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Mar 16, 2009 16:35:24 GMT -6
Given Felker's criminal record, a 12 year sentence for rape, I can't consider him an innocent or undeserving of death. He simply got executed for the wrong crime. Despite his crime not being one that merited execution at the time? How strange! Rape is still a capital crime in many states, and even if it was not a capital offense in his particular state, so what? He is scum no matter which angle you look at it.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 18:10:24 GMT -6
Soldiers deserting was a major problem during WWII. Both sides tried and executed people of deserting. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think 40 or so were executed by the US for deserting.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 18:47:14 GMT -6
So, piecing the responses (thus far) of pros together, here's the bottom line:
So long as we don't execute a 'real' innocent, who cares whether or not he/she committed the crime they're being executed for. Eh.... And, we all know no one who lands on DR could possibly not be deserving of death ~ even if they are innocent, because ultimately, even if innocent, they're not. Dirtbag anyway, so meh. Justice served regardless. Right?
............ K.
Though, I'm not entirely sure how such an execution is supposed to be justice for a murder victim who the executee didn't kill. Nor am I sure what 'closure' those MVS would get from it.
Still, it's not about them. Not really about murder victims. Not really about MVS. Not even really about justice.
It's about feeling oh, so much safer.
And, I sure feel much safer knowing the dirtbag who actually was considered worst of the worst ~~~~~ remains at large.
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 16, 2009 19:02:10 GMT -6
So, piecing the responses (thus far) of pros together, here's the bottom line: So long as we don't execute a 'real' innocent, who cares whether or not he/she committed the crime they're being executed for. Eh.... And, we all know no one who lands on DR could possibly not be deserving of death ~ even if they are innocent, because ultimately, even if innocent, they're not. Dirtbag anyway, so meh. Justice served regardless. Right? ............ K. Though, I'm not entirely sure how such an execution is supposed to be justice for a murder victim who the executee didn't kill. Nor am I sure what 'closure' those MVS would get from it. Still, it's not about them. Not really about murder victims. Not really about MVS. Not even really about justice. It's about feeling oh, so much safer. And, I sure feel much safer knowing the dirtbag who actually was considered worst of the worst ~~~~~ remains at large. Care to point out a time when a person who definitely did not commit commit the crime was executed leading to the situation you describe?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 19:42:40 GMT -6
So, piecing the responses (thus far) of pros together, here's the bottom line: So long as we don't execute a 'real' innocent, who cares whether or not he/she committed the crime they're being executed for. Eh.... And, we all know no one who lands on DR could possibly not be deserving of death ~ even if they are innocent, because ultimately, even if innocent, they're not. Dirtbag anyway, so meh. Justice served regardless. Right? ............ K. Though, I'm not entirely sure how such an execution is supposed to be justice for a murder victim who the executee didn't kill. Nor am I sure what 'closure' those MVS would get from it. Still, it's not about them. Not really about murder victims. Not really about MVS. Not even really about justice. It's about feeling oh, so much safer. And, I sure feel much safer knowing the dirtbag who actually was considered worst of the worst ~~~~~ remains at large. Care to point out a time when a person who definitely did not commit commit the crime was executed leading to the situation you describe? The situation I describe? ~~ Gee, I thought the situation ~ a not so innocent innocent executed ~ was the topic of the thread. And, what I've described is the situation as it is (or would be) if, in fact, we off (offed) the wrong dirtbag ya'll don't seem too bothered about offing.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 19:48:01 GMT -6
Care to point out a time when a person who definitely did not commit commit the crime was executed leading to the situation you describe? The situation I describe? ~~ Gee, I thought the situation ~ a not so innocent innocent executed ~ was the topic of the thread. And, what I've described is the situation as it is (or would be) if, in fact, we off (offed) the wrong dirtbag ya'll don't seem too bothered about offing. Funny. In over 33 years and 1100+ executions the wrong dirtbag hasn't been offed yet. When you can show even one example, get back to us.
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 16, 2009 19:57:34 GMT -6
Care to point out a time when a person who definitely did not commit commit the crime was executed leading to the situation you describe? The situation I describe? ~~ Gee, I thought the situation ~ a not so innocent innocent executed ~ was the topic of the thread. And, what I've described is the situation as it is (or would be) if, in fact, we off (offed) the wrong dirtbag ya'll don't seem too bothered about offing. What part of "definitely did not commit the crime" do you not understand? Look at the first post. Innocent, not 'not so innocent' or guilty of another terrible crime. Innocent, as in not guilty of the crime they were executed for or some sort of lesser charge like Manslaughter resulting from the crime.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 20:10:21 GMT -6
The situation I describe? ~~ Gee, I thought the situation ~ a not so innocent innocent executed ~ was the topic of the thread. And, what I've described is the situation as it is (or would be) if, in fact, we off (offed) the wrong dirtbag ya'll don't seem too bothered about offing. What part of "definitely did not commit the crime" do you not understand? Look at the first post. Innocent, not 'not so innocent' or guilty of another terrible crime. Innocent, as in not guilty of the crime they were executed for or some sort of lesser charge like Manslaughter resulting from the crime. Huh? I take these questions to suggest that even if the dirtbag might have been executed for a crime he didn't commit, he wasn't exactly an innocent anyway. The responses to the questions pretty much told me ya'll took the question in the same way that I did, including your: Given Felker's criminal record, a 12 year sentence for rape, I can't consider him an innocent or undeserving of death. He simply got executed for the wrong crime.And, if what he's saying/wondering has/will happen, then what I've suggested also follows, not just the 'so freaking what' I'm reading. I'm not arguing whether or not it has happened. I don't care actually, since doling death (to anyone) isn't my thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 20:12:46 GMT -6
The situation I describe? ~~ Gee, I thought the situation ~ a not so innocent innocent executed ~ was the topic of the thread. And, what I've described is the situation as it is (or would be) if, in fact, we off (offed) the wrong dirtbag ya'll don't seem too bothered about offing. Funny. In over 33 years and 1100+ executions the wrong dirtbag hasn't been offed yet. When you can show even one example, get back to us. Funny you're so sure of that. Is that because to think otherwise is unthinkable?
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 20:27:41 GMT -6
Funny. In over 33 years and 1100+ executions the wrong dirtbag hasn't been offed yet. When you can show even one example, get back to us. Funny you're so sure of that. Is that because to think otherwise is unthinkable? Translation: You cannot point to a single case of an innocent person being executed. If you could, we would have heard about it well before now.
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 16, 2009 20:34:06 GMT -6
What part of "definitely did not commit the crime" do you not understand? Look at the first post. Innocent, not 'not so innocent' or guilty of another terrible crime. Innocent, as in not guilty of the crime they were executed for or some sort of lesser charge like Manslaughter resulting from the crime. Huh? Can you name someone who did not commit or even take part in the crime for which they were executed?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 20:36:49 GMT -6
Funny you're so sure of that. Is that because to think otherwise is unthinkable? Translation: You cannot point to a single case of an innocent person being executed. If you could, we would have heard about it well before now. Never said I could or would. And, lucky for your beauty rest, any evidence is probably buried, too. Still, I'll note that ya'll want to change the subject round to what I can/cannot prove when all I did was respond to the 'ho-hum even if we did (or do) it, they were the scum of the earth anyway' attitudes.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 20:43:28 GMT -6
Translation: You cannot point to a single case of an innocent person being executed. If you could, we would have heard about it well before now. Never said I could or would. And, lucky for your beauty rest, any evidence is probably buried, too. Still, I'll note that ya'll want to change the subject round to what I can/cannot prove when all I did was respond to the 'ho-hum even if we did (or do) it, they were the scum of the earth anyway' attitudes. So if you can't cite a single case in 33 years, where, exactly, is the apparent risk that an innocent will be executed? What does 0 innocent people executed divided by 1100+ executions give you?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 20:49:40 GMT -6
Can you name someone who did not commit or even take part in the crime for which they were executed? Nope. But, why change the subject? Precisely ~ although, arguably, "He simply got executed for the wrong crime" doesn't suggest any 'IF'. Likewise, I'm arguing the "IF" of the scenario. You think it's okay to execute the wrong guy since he's a pieceapoo slimeball anyway (and I do understand that sentiment). All I'm doing is playing that out the resta the way ~~~ execute the wrong pieceapoo slimeball (innocent) and that murder victim didn't get justice, nor did the MVS, and nor did the people since the other pieceapoo slimball who actually did the crime is (sing it with me) out there somewhere...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 20:55:53 GMT -6
Never said I could or would. And, lucky for your beauty rest, any evidence is probably buried, too. Still, I'll note that ya'll want to change the subject round to what I can/cannot prove when all I did was respond to the 'ho-hum even if we did (or do) it, they were the scum of the earth anyway' attitudes. So if you can't cite a single case in 33 years, where, exactly, is the apparent risk that an innocent will be executed? What does 0 innocent people executed divided by 1100+ executions give you? It's like any human endeavor ~ the more you do something, the more likelihood there'll be an 'oops'. It's like this. I go to Vegas and throw a little money down. I have NEVER come home with any winnings.................. Odds are sooner or later I will
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 21:14:43 GMT -6
So if you can't cite a single case in 33 years, where, exactly, is the apparent risk that an innocent will be executed? What does 0 innocent people executed divided by 1100+ executions give you? It's like any human endeavor ~ the more you do something, the more likelihood there'll be an 'oops'. It's like this. I go to Vegas and throw a little money down. I have NEVER come home with any winnings.................. Odds are sooner or later I will First comparing execution with winning at vegas is a bad analogy to put it mildly. Secondly, I have to completely disagree with you. You continue to prattle about a future "oops" that may or may not ever happen. Between forensic science and the appeal process, the odds are against your future "oops".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 21:15:00 GMT -6
If someone was proved to innocent after being executed, then it would mean the end of the dp. So therefore such proof is hardly likely to be forthcoming. I am one that does not believe the finding of an innocent executed, would end executions in the US. Mankind has a tendency to try to "fix" mistakes. It would cause a long moratorium, but after a certain length of time, many states would resume executions. I understand states like California would end it, but for other states (like Texas), a major swift in public opinion would have to take place. I believe it will take years after the execution, to discover that a mistake had been made. After many years DP supporters will agree it was a sad situation, but be under the belief that the process or science has improved so much a mistake can not be made again. (Hypothetical) Take a person who was executed in the 80's or 90's and recently found to be innocent of the charges that led to his execution. Then let’s say that DNA evidence was found to "set the record straight". Many of the supporters of the DP (not all) would state something to this effect "That happened XXX years ago, the science is so much better now, it could never happen again". In this scenario, people may believe that the fix has already been implemented and are satisfied that it couldn't happen again. Funny. In over 33 years and 1100+ executions the wrong dirtbag hasn't been offed yet. When you can show even one example, get back to us. There has been numerous death row exoneration and while that shows the appeals process does work, it does not mean it is 100% accurate ---- which it isn't (as I stated in another topic). Wrongful convictions have happened in Canada, UK and the US, but please remember that all are not discovered. Asking members to suggest "possible" wrongful convictions and then return the tired default response with no attempt to debate the merits of the specific case, is not only wrong, but shows that you would be one of the "supporters" that would believe the system could be fixed, which is a fools fantasy. Ron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 21:24:02 GMT -6
It's like any human endeavor ~ the more you do something, the more likelihood there'll be an 'oops'. It's like this. I go to Vegas and throw a little money down. I have NEVER come home with any winnings.................. Odds are sooner or later I will First comparing execution with winning at vegas is a bad analogy to put it mildly. Secondly, I have to completely disagree with you. You continue to prattle about a future "oops" that may or may not ever happen. Between forensic science and the appeal process, the odds are against your future "oops". And you forget that it's not my scenario... I didn't start the thread. I was (all along) only playing out the scenario as it was presented ~ as were others here, who pretty much said such a scenario wouldn't bother them overmuch since in all likelihood the 'innocent' wasn't so innocent anyway. Also, if it makes you feel better to believe an 'oops' isn't inevitable, by all means, go on believing that when we choose to kill, we always choose wisely ~ us being all-knowing and all.
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