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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 15:45:02 GMT -6
I don't believe it does anything. I only think it's naive to pretend like we have always and will always get it right. In either case, there's an inevitable 'oops' we have to accept ~ or we might as well forego any punishment. I've come to accept that the possibility has to exist that we've either already executed an innocent person, or will someday. We know we've sent the wrong person to jail before, so why is condemning someone by mistake any less feasible? I accept this, and my belief in the DP is actually strengthened by it. Ours is a human system, and as such will always be imperfect. If this is the only reason for tossing out the DP, then why not toss the whole criminal justice system with it? I agree with you. It's certainly not why I oppose DP.
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Post by Matt on Mar 18, 2009 16:18:31 GMT -6
You are the person here I usually adore for it's brilliant analytical skills and it's great intellect. Thanks. I love the word "adore". True enough. It's a horrible mistake. Compensate, punish, rework, and move on. What else can we do? As he should be. And I say that it is the height of fallacy to dispense with capital punishment, based upon the notion that we might execute the wrong person as a result of accident, error, or deliberate criminal malfeasance. If you are a DP supporter, you have to accept the possibility that an innocent person will one day be executed. I'm not saying its inevitable (I certainly hope not), but it's definitely a possibility. You work to put safeguards in place (of which I'm pretty confident now), you try to make it foolproof, but in the end its up to us to make it work.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 16:33:05 GMT -6
I don't have to sort through all 1100+ cases. Afterall, there is something called a court system to do that very thing. The actual guilt or innocence of a murder convict isn't the court system's responsibility. Appellate justices aren't interested in truth -- their concern is only that due process was followed at trial. Not everyone is listening. The antis would use that one case a rally cry. The card hard fact is that the antis have to rely on a possible future case because they don't have an actual case yet. Statistics alone show that at least one innocent person has been executed. It doesn't matter who it was, or when. It's happened. Anyone that doubts it is an idiot. So simply show one example where an innocent was executed. Statistics can argue either side of an argument. So stick to factual cases.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 16:36:04 GMT -6
I've come to accept that the possibility has to exist that we've either already executed an innocent person, or will someday. We know we've sent the wrong person to jail before, so why is condemning someone by mistake any less feasible? I accept this, and my belief in the DP is actually strengthened by it. Ours is a human system, and as such will always be imperfect. If this is the only reason for tossing out the DP, then why not toss the whole criminal justice system with it? I agree with you. It's certainly not why I oppose DP. You know what? It doesn't matter if you oppose the dp because the bottom line is the dp is still the law of the land, and pos will continued to be executed. Makes you want to cry, doesn't it?
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Post by josephdphillips on Mar 18, 2009 16:51:44 GMT -6
So simply show one example where an innocent was executed. Statistics can argue either side of an argument. So stick to factual cases. Not necessary. No reasonable person believes that out of 1,000 convictions, one isn't by mistake. Humans are incapable of that kind of accuracy. No matter what you think of DPIC, AI, the Innocence Project and the rest -- they can't always be wrong all the time. You lose credibility to the extent you have faith in the system to be 100 percent accurate. Juries make mistakes every day, and jurists aren't paid to reverse such mistakes -- they're paid to see that the rules are followed. That's all. You can gloat all you want about the "POSes" who are getting executed -- the death penalty is in irreversible decline. It will cease to exist in my lifetime, and I'm 50.
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Post by Kay on Mar 18, 2009 17:09:14 GMT -6
I agree with you. It's certainly not why I oppose DP. You know what? It doesn't matter if you oppose the dp because the bottom line is the dp is still the law of the land, and pos will continued to be executed. Makes you want to cry, doesn't it? Yeah, the fact that her son was murdered has made her cry lots of times, and others too. What's your problem?
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 17:40:14 GMT -6
You know what? It doesn't matter if you oppose the dp because the bottom line is the dp is still the law of the land, and pos will continued to be executed. Makes you want to cry, doesn't it? Yeah, the fact that her son was murdered has made her cry lots of times, and others too. What's your problem? I said executed. Not murdered. Certainly having a son murdered is sad.
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Post by somebody on Mar 18, 2009 18:23:11 GMT -6
Funny you're so sure of that. Is that because to think otherwise is unthinkable? Translation: You cannot point to a single case of an innocent person being executed. If you could, we would have heard about it well before now. According to me Wonderwoman asked the same question over and over again, and it looks as if you are avoiding to answer her. If I have understood her correctly (if not I am sorry) she tried very hard to explain how weird it is that here, on this board, people can react to the possibility of an innocent one being executed with a "whatever, he must have done something wrong..." She explained again and again that this response is weird: how come that some posters over here do not care about the possibility that an innocent one might be executed? She did NOT say that an innocent inmate has been executed. She DID stated that it was strange that so many people over here don't seem to care...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 18:24:35 GMT -6
I agree with you. It's certainly not why I oppose DP. You know what? It doesn't matter if you oppose the dp because the bottom line is the dp is still the law of the land, and pos will continued to be executed. Makes you want to cry, doesn't it? Yeah, it's the law of the land (now and then and when the wind blows the right way). And last I checked, I get to have an opinion, same as anyone else living here. And, as long as 'we the people' are making the rules, the rules can change. Makes YOU want to cry, doesn't it?
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 18:38:11 GMT -6
Translation: You cannot point to a single case of an innocent person being executed. If you could, we would have heard about it well before now. According to me Wonderwoman asked the same question over and over again, and it looks as if you are avoiding to answer her. If I have understood her correctly (if not I am sorry) she tried very hard to explain how weird it is that here, on this board, people can react to the possibility of an innocent one being executed with a "whatever, he must have done something wrong..." She explained again and again that this response is weird: how come that some posters over here do not care about the possibility that an innocent one might be executed? She did NOT say that an innocent inmate has been executed. She DID stated that it was strange that so many people over here don't seem to care... Again, since you don't seem to get it. There have been zero innocent executed in over 1100 executions. So, with all due respect, your potential of an innocent being executed is so far remote, it is pointless to even discuss. We can throw hypothetical "what-ifs" around all night. That doesn't change the fact that zero innocent have been executed. When you have a case of an innocent executed, it might change my opinion. However, until you do, there is no reason to discuss something that hasn't happened.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 18:44:09 GMT -6
You know what? It doesn't matter if you oppose the dp because the bottom line is the dp is still the law of the land, and pos will continued to be executed. Makes you want to cry, doesn't it? Yeah, it's the law of the land (now and then and when the wind blows the right way). And last I checked, I get to have an opinion, same as anyone else living here. And, as long as 'we the people' are making the rules, the rules can change. Makes YOU want to cry, doesn't it? Not in the least. I will sleep soundly either way. You want to know why? Because I am not planning to commit capital murder so I really don't have to worry too much about it.
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Post by somebody on Mar 18, 2009 18:53:12 GMT -6
Yeah, it's the law of the land (now and then and when the wind blows the right way). And last I checked, I get to have an opinion, same as anyone else living here. And, as long as 'we the people' are making the rules, the rules can change. Makes YOU want to cry, doesn't it? Not in the least. I will sleep soundly either way. You want to know why? Because I am not planning to commit capital murder so I really don't have to worry too much about it. And you belief that all murderers are behind bars, the worst of the worst are going to be executed, the streets are safe, your lawsystem is perfect, there are absolutely no mistakes whatsoever, and asking yourself a question once in a while, a "what if" question, is stupid beyond words?
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Post by somebody on Mar 18, 2009 18:58:10 GMT -6
According to me Wonderwoman asked the same question over and over again, and it looks as if you are avoiding to answer her. If I have understood her correctly (if not I am sorry) she tried very hard to explain how weird it is that here, on this board, people can react to the possibility of an innocent one being executed with a "whatever, he must have done something wrong..." She explained again and again that this response is weird: how come that some posters over here do not care about the possibility that an innocent one might be executed? She did NOT say that an innocent inmate has been executed. She DID stated that it was strange that so many people over here don't seem to care... Again, since you don't seem to get it. There have been zero innocent executed in over 1100 executions. So, with all due respect, your potential of an innocent being executed is so far remote, it is pointless to even discuss. We can throw hypothetical "what-ifs" around all night. That doesn't change the fact that zero innocent have been executed. When you have a case of an innocent executed, it might change my opinion. However, until you do, there is no reason to discuss something that hasn't happened. I don't understand your "throw hypothetical what-if's around all night..." To me asking questions is important to grow intellectually. If Columbus himself wouldn't have thrown his "what-of" question around, he would never have sailed away to discover America By example...
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 19:27:58 GMT -6
Not in the least. I will sleep soundly either way. You want to know why? Because I am not planning to commit capital murder so I really don't have to worry too much about it. And you belief that all murderers are behind bars, the worst of the worst are going to be executed, the streets are safe, your lawsystem is perfect, there are absolutely no mistakes whatsoever, and asking yourself a question once in a while, a "what if" question, is stupid beyond words? Where did I say that all murderers are behind bars or any of the other rubbish you are spewing out? Please show the quote where I said that.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 19:30:36 GMT -6
Again, since you don't seem to get it. There have been zero innocent executed in over 1100 executions. So, with all due respect, your potential of an innocent being executed is so far remote, it is pointless to even discuss. We can throw hypothetical "what-ifs" around all night. That doesn't change the fact that zero innocent have been executed. When you have a case of an innocent executed, it might change my opinion. However, until you do, there is no reason to discuss something that hasn't happened. I don't understand your "throw hypothetical what-if's around all night..." To me asking questions is important to grow intellectually. If Columbus himself wouldn't have thrown his "what-of" question around, he would never have sailed away to discover America By example... What in the blue hell does Columbus have to do with the dp? My point is you are throwing "hypothetical what-ifs" around talking about an innocent person being executed when you have zero cases to support your position.
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Post by phatkat on Mar 18, 2009 19:32:31 GMT -6
I'd like to know how you're so sure. Is your "proof" that no innocent person has ever been executed the fact that a small group of people on an online forum have not, in the last 24 or so hours, been able to provide proof that one innocent person has been executed? Or have you read through all 1100+ case files and gone over all the evidence yourself to the point that you can be 100% sure that what we have is a perfect process? Just wondered. I haven't gone through all that history myself (don't have the kinda time, and that's a bit of a grim hobby), but given my propensity to doubt that any system or person in the US is "perfect", and my belief that the more power you give someone the less perfect they're likely to be, I have trouble getting your statement to resonate in my brain. I don't have to sort through all 1100+ cases. Afterall, there is something called a court system to do that very thing. If there was 1 innocent executed, we would have heard about it. The antis would use that one case a rally cry. The card hard fact is that the antis have to rely on a possible future case because they don't have an actual case yet. Mmmkay. So, the court system is perfect. I ask you how you know - have you double-checked everything the court system does for accuracy? You answer that you don't have to, because the court system has done it for you. There could be any number of reasons why we haven't heard about an innocent being executed. For one thing, who's going to re-investigate cases where someone has already been tried, convicted, and executed? Not the law enforcement agencies themselves, I bet. So, that's left to someone working for free, probably with minimal resources. They'd have to believe pretty hardcore in an executed person's innocence, especially when there are likely to be LIVING innocents out there who would be impacted significantly more by the overturn of a wrongful conviction. Eventually, if that person doesn't run out of time/money/energy and they find proof that the executed person was actually innocent, who are they going to go to in order to make it right? Not any of the agencies who helped execute that person. The last thing any prosecutor, lawyer, police officer, whoever wants to do is admit that they goofed big time. Nobody wants Joe Citizen's faith shaken in any of these people who are paid to protect us. And very few people who believe in the death penalty would want our faith in the gurney to be shaken either. It's the way it works, again, with a bunch of humans in charge. Some antis do have several names of those who were executed with doubts as to their guilt. Google "executed innocents" and you'll find names. I haven't done the research to know much about any of their claims, but to claim the antis have no rallying cry in this area is false.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 19:47:35 GMT -6
I don't understand your "throw hypothetical what-if's around all night..." To me asking questions is important to grow intellectually. If Columbus himself wouldn't have thrown his "what-of" question around, he would never have sailed away to discover America By example... What in the blue hell does Columbus have to do with the dp? My point is you are throwing "hypothetical what-ifs" around talking about an innocent person being executed when you have zero cases to support your position. It's okay King. somebody is just throwing the garbage that she was taught by a cult(IMO, that is what the group is that she has told me about). What ifs are the biggest questions that MVSs ask themselves all the time. Being a therapist(for some MVSs) she should have realized this and known that it might cause some harm to the MVSs here that she has posted on the board that we must be careful around. GET THAT. SHE HAS TO BE CAREFUL AROUND MVSs BUT SHE WRITES TO A MURDERER. Seems to me this therapist needs therapy. Btw, lawrence and somebody, you mentioned that there are victims on this board. I THINK NOT. ALL OF THE VICTIMS WHICH YOU SPEAK OF ARE DEAD. Get it straight we are the survivors. It seems this is a great argument for some, you know, the victims are dead and we can't do anything but tapdance on their graves, so lets fight for the POS that did the killing. Another thing lawrence and somebody, MVSs did not lose their ability to read because some POS murdered our loved one. When you post that you must be careful around us. We can read it and feel that you think you know how to handle us. ;D
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 19:48:56 GMT -6
I don't have to sort through all 1100+ cases. Afterall, there is something called a court system to do that very thing. If there was 1 innocent executed, we would have heard about it. The antis would use that one case a rally cry. The card hard fact is that the antis have to rely on a possible future case because they don't have an actual case yet. Mmmkay. So, the court system is perfect. I ask you how you know - have you double-checked everything the court system does for accuracy? You answer that you don't have to, because the court system has done it for you. There could be any number of reasons why we haven't heard about an innocent being executed. For one thing, who's going to re-investigate cases where someone has already been tried, convicted, and executed? Not the law enforcement agencies themselves, I bet. So, that's left to someone working for free, probably with minimal resources. They'd have to believe pretty hardcore in an executed person's innocence, especially when there are likely to be LIVING innocents out there who would be impacted significantly more by the overturn of a wrongful conviction. Eventually, if that person doesn't run out of time/money/energy and they find proof that the executed person was actually innocent, who are they going to go to in order to make it right? Not any of the agencies who helped execute that person. The last thing any prosecutor, lawyer, police officer, whoever wants to do is admit that they goofed big time. Nobody wants Joe Citizen's faith shaken in any of these people who are paid to protect us. And very few people who believe in the death penalty would want our faith in the gurney to be shaken either. It's the way it works, again, with a bunch of humans in charge. Some antis do have several names of those who were executed with doubts as to their guilt. Google "executed innocents" and you'll find names. I haven't done the research to know much about any of their claims, but to claim the antis have no rallying cry in this area is false. Perhaps. Interesting points Katie. However, what does it tell you, in our DNA era, that there hasn't been a single exoneration awarded to somebody who was executed? I hold the position that as DNA and forensic science continues to improve, your apparent risk of execution an innocent decreases. If the antis have a rally cry from a single case where it can be shown an innocent was executed, what is it? I haven't heard of a single case where you can say, "Yes, without question, blank was an innocent person that was executed" The DPIC and the other antis continue to harp about the exonerated, but it is funny how nobody can produce a single case of an innocent being executed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 20:06:24 GMT -6
And you belief that all murderers are behind bars, the worst of the worst are going to be executed, the streets are safe, your lawsystem is perfect, there are absolutely no mistakes whatsoever, and asking yourself a question once in a while, a "what if" question, is stupid beyond words? Where did I say that all murderers are behind bars or any of the other rubbish you are spewing out? Please show the quote where I said that. I believe somebody was questioning your ability to sleep so well at night since most murderers will one day be released (and I'm not talking about the ones who got LWOP), and with so many murders and other horrible crimes being committed while your sleeping well cuz you don't plan to commit capital murder except, well, you know when. I understand your ability. Tough to see much or do much wondering with your head planted firmly up your azz.
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 18, 2009 20:12:56 GMT -6
Where did I say that all murderers are behind bars or any of the other rubbish you are spewing out? Please show the quote where I said that. I believe somebody was questioning your ability to sleep so well at night since most murderers will one day be released (and I'm not talking about the ones who got LWOP), and with so many murders and other horrible crimes being committed while your sleeping well cuz you don't plan to commit capital murder except, well, you know when. I understand your ability. Tough to see much or do much wondering with your head planted firmly up your azz. Whats up with the personal attack? What the hell do you want me to do about murderers who will be released? If the state in question decides they should be released, what exactly can I do about it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2009 20:21:49 GMT -6
I believe somebody was questioning your ability to sleep so well at night since most murderers will one day be released (and I'm not talking about the ones who got LWOP), and with so many murders and other horrible crimes being committed while your sleeping well cuz you don't plan to commit capital murder except, well, you know when. I understand your ability. Tough to see much or do much wondering with your head planted firmly up your azz. Whats up with the personal attack? What the hell do you want me to do about murderers who will be released? If the state in question decides they should be released, what exactly can I do about it? prodp.proboards47.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=25533&page=11
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Post by somebody on Mar 19, 2009 3:02:41 GMT -6
I don't understand your "throw hypothetical what-if's around all night..." To me asking questions is important to grow intellectually. If Columbus himself wouldn't have thrown his "what-of" question around, he would never have sailed away to discover America By example... What in the blue hell does Columbus have to do with the dp? My point is you are throwing "hypothetical what-ifs" around talking about an innocent person being executed when you have zero cases to support your position. Just joking a little! Without proof you can still debate about "what if an innocent men is executed". I don't understand why that is wrong. A lot of debates over here contain "what if" questions because proof and facts are not solid either. Anti's can provide proof which easily can be overturned by the proof pro's can give- and vice versa.
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Post by somebody on Mar 19, 2009 3:04:45 GMT -6
And you belief that all murderers are behind bars, the worst of the worst are going to be executed, the streets are safe, your lawsystem is perfect, there are absolutely no mistakes whatsoever, and asking yourself a question once in a while, a "what if" question, is stupid beyond words? Where did I say that all murderers are behind bars or any of the other rubbish you are spewing out? Please show the quote where I said that. NO quote! You just seem to repeat that everything is fine as it is, and you are not worried about a thing. A little sense of humor is nice, when being here, ;D but if you don't like it I apologize and will quit, ok?
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Post by somebody on Mar 19, 2009 3:28:06 GMT -6
What in the blue hell does Columbus have to do with the dp? My point is you are throwing "hypothetical what-ifs" around talking about an innocent person being executed when you have zero cases to support your position. It's okay King. somebody is just throwing the garbage that she was taught by a cult(IMO, that is what the group is that she has told me about). What ifs are the biggest questions that MVSs ask themselves all the time. Being a therapist(for some MVSs) she should have realized this and known that it might cause some harm to the MVSs here that she has posted on the board that we must be careful around. GET THAT. SHE HAS TO BE CAREFUL AROUND MVSs BUT SHE WRITES TO A MURDERER. Seems to me this therapist needs therapy. Btw, lawrence and somebody, you mentioned that there are victims on this board. I THINK NOT. ALL OF THE VICTIMS WHICH YOU SPEAK OF ARE DEAD. Get it straight we are the survivors. It seems this is a great argument for some, you know, the victims are dead and we can't do anything but tapdance on their graves, so lets fight for the POS that did the killing. Another thing lawrence and somebody, MVSs did not lose their ability to read because some POS murdered our loved one. When you post that you must be careful around us. We can read it and feel that you think you know how to handle us. ;D Sorry for the mistakes. I tried to be careful but sometimes it is just not enough. I know that you don't believe the things I write. I also know that pen pals have been rude on this board, so I can see your point here. I just hope that you will give it some time. There are people out there who know about both sides. Families of dr-inmates who feel shame because of what their relative did, doctors and nurses who treat both murderers and MVS's, priests who listen to confessions, therapists who talk to both murderers and MVS's, etc. Although they have contact with the murderer(s) they still can find the crimes disgusting. I think about crimes being disgusting as well. In my way of thinking I'm more tough on crime than other Europeans can be, because I believe in LWOP. You do not believe the things I say though. So, let it rest and give it some time? Maybe if I am here long enough you will find out that I am a Children's Therapist and I do care for MVS's?
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 19, 2009 5:40:48 GMT -6
...the first step in avoiding the trap is knowing of it's existence
That is the entire point of this thread. I submitted this question after visiting the anti-boards because it is an emotional argument that cannot be proven. It can be theorized and two completely opposite hypotheses submitted; but at the end neither can be proven beyond doubt.
When you are done, you only have your convictions. They will be firm or shaken, but if you really engage in this topic you cannot avoid finding where your conviction truly stands.
However, I can say that my original question has been answered. No one can tell me an answer and I left the question intentionally vague. If I had asked how many since 1900, 1950, or 1980; then, I expect the farther back one goes the likelihood that an innocent person had been executed increases. But, even the proclaimed innocence of Bruno Hauptmann did not stand up to scrutiny using modern forensic techniques. As such, I must conclude that while concrete facts and evidence are not available and contradiction abounds, I can find no reason to support any claim that an innocent person has been executed in the US in recent history.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 19, 2009 5:54:40 GMT -6
...the first step in avoiding the trap is knowing of it's existenceThat is the entire point of this thread. I submitted this question after visiting the anti-boards because it is an emotional argument that cannot be proven. It can be theorized and two completely opposite hypotheses submitted; but at the end neither can be proven beyond doubt. When you are done, you only have your convictions. They will be firm or shaken, but if you really engage in this topic you cannot avoid finding where your conviction truly stands. However, I can say that my original question has been answered. No one can tell me an answer and I left the question intentionally vague. If I had asked how many since 1900, 1950, or 1980; then, I expect the farther back one goes the likelihood that an innocent person had been executed increases. But, even the proclaimed innocence of Bruno Hauptmann did not stand up to scrutiny using modern forensic techniques. As such, I must conclude that while concrete facts and evidence are not available and contradiction abounds, I can find no reason to support any claim that an innocent person has been executed in the US in recent history. Rather convenient, dontcha think. You on the one hand support executions where it seems likely the accused might be guilty without any irrefutable proof, sometimes a person having motive alone can be enough for pro dp folk and the state, but then when we focus on possible cases of innocence lo and behold, pro's such as you suddenly demand a higher level of proof. Suddenly you're not interested in likelyhood or anything so vague as the basis on which you will willingly execute and make such a scenario possible in the first instance. I frankly find that this reeks of double standards, smacks of an apparent indifference to the possibility of innocent lives being taken, and find it bordering on hypocrisy and double standards not consistent with thoxse really interested in truth in the first palce. Over to you.
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Post by phatkat on Mar 19, 2009 7:09:41 GMT -6
Mmmkay. So, the court system is perfect. I ask you how you know - have you double-checked everything the court system does for accuracy? You answer that you don't have to, because the court system has done it for you. There could be any number of reasons why we haven't heard about an innocent being executed. For one thing, who's going to re-investigate cases where someone has already been tried, convicted, and executed? Not the law enforcement agencies themselves, I bet. So, that's left to someone working for free, probably with minimal resources. They'd have to believe pretty hardcore in an executed person's innocence, especially when there are likely to be LIVING innocents out there who would be impacted significantly more by the overturn of a wrongful conviction. Eventually, if that person doesn't run out of time/money/energy and they find proof that the executed person was actually innocent, who are they going to go to in order to make it right? Not any of the agencies who helped execute that person. The last thing any prosecutor, lawyer, police officer, whoever wants to do is admit that they goofed big time. Nobody wants Joe Citizen's faith shaken in any of these people who are paid to protect us. And very few people who believe in the death penalty would want our faith in the gurney to be shaken either. It's the way it works, again, with a bunch of humans in charge. Some antis do have several names of those who were executed with doubts as to their guilt. Google "executed innocents" and you'll find names. I haven't done the research to know much about any of their claims, but to claim the antis have no rallying cry in this area is false. It tells me many things. One, you do have a point. Modern science has made it possible to provide stronger evidence of a person's guilt in many cases. So sure, I'll admit that the likelihood of executing an innocent person isn't as strong as it was long ago. However, we're still talking about good tools in the hands of imperfect humans. It also goes back to what I said before - it's not as important to people to exonerate an innocent, and even if there was evidence ("proof" even - even though very few things can be 100% proven) that an executed person was innocent, how many people would be willing to let it be known? You're silly. There will ALWAYS be a question of whether they were *really* innocent. If there wasn't, they would have never been executed in the first place. It's much harder to prove a negative than a positive. Heck, *I* can't prove that I didn't kill *insert any murder victim from, say, the late 1980's on.* There's no evidence to connect me to any murder case, but that's not the same as proof that I didn't do it. Anyway, like I said, if you want to see cases that some antis (not "the antis", because I can guarantee that we're all different) say are cases where there is evidence that an innocent was executed, google "innocent executed" or "wrongfully executed." I'm not linking, listing, or naming, because I haven't done the research to know and don't want to put my name to any of the claims yet. But there's the answer to the original question, anyway.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 19, 2009 7:16:41 GMT -6
Rather convenient, dontcha think. You on the one hand support executions where it seems likely the accused might be guilty without any irrefutable proof, sometimes a person having motive alone can be enough for pro dp folk and the state, but then when we focus on possible cases of innocence lo and behold, pro's such as you suddenly demand a higher level of proof. Suddenly you're not interested in likelyhood or anything so vague as the basis on which you will willingly execute and make such a scenario possible in the first instance. I frankly find that this reeks of double standards, smacks of an apparent indifference to the possibility of innocent lives being taken, and find it bordering on hypocrisy and double standards not consistent with thoxse really interested in truth in the first palce. Over to you. It is called circumstantial evidence and is used in many cases when no "smoking gun" can be found. Can you prove an innocent person has been executed - No, you cannot. In all of the years all of the trials, all of the executions, all of the hashing and rehashing of evidence can you prove it - again No.? Did you see it - No, can you prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt - No.? That is what the evidence tells me. Theoretically, I can argue anything up to and including aliens did it. Can I prove it - No.? What do the facts in evidence indicate - they indicate that we have not executed an innocent person. Conclusion - we have not executed an innocent person in the US in recent history and definitely not since the advent and use of DNA. Back to you
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Post by somebody on Mar 19, 2009 8:13:02 GMT -6
Rather convenient, dontcha think. You on the one hand support executions where it seems likely the accused might be guilty without any irrefutable proof, sometimes a person having motive alone can be enough for pro dp folk and the state, but then when we focus on possible cases of innocence lo and behold, pro's such as you suddenly demand a higher level of proof. Suddenly you're not interested in likelyhood or anything so vague as the basis on which you will willingly execute and make such a scenario possible in the first instance. I frankly find that this reeks of double standards, smacks of an apparent indifference to the possibility of innocent lives being taken, and find it bordering on hypocrisy and double standards not consistent with thoxse really interested in truth in the first palce. Over to you. It is called circumstantial evidence and is used in many cases when no "smoking gun" can be found. Can you prove an innocent person has been executed - No, you cannot. In all of the years all of the trials, all of the executions, all of the hashing and rehashing of evidence can you prove it - again No.? Did you see it - No, can you prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt - No.? That is what the evidence tells me. Theoretically, I can argue anything up to and including aliens did it. Can I prove it - No.? What do the facts in evidence indicate - they indicate that we have not executed an innocent person. Conclusion - we have not executed an innocent person in the US in recent history and definitely not since the advent and use of DNA. Back to you I understand your point of view but I cannot understand your belief in scientific proof and evidence. It would mean that scientists never argue with each other, right? Well, they do. There are hundreds of theories about the early beginning of the earth, the development of living creatures and even the snoring of cats. One group of scientists can come up with proof and immediately get attacked by other scientists and their kinds of evidence. So, I agree with your "can you prove that an innocent is been executed? No." I also agree with my: "Can you prove that no innocent has ever been executed? No". But even without evidence about the dp, there IS evidence that human beings make mistakes. They do. So how can you be absolutely sure that after more than 1200 executions no one, without any doubt, has been innocent and executed anyway, while this simple fact that human beings make mistakes does excist?
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Post by lawrence on Mar 19, 2009 8:45:14 GMT -6
I would tend to think going by what some pros have wrote that it is of a personal defence to the dp that they refuse to think the impossible. The lack of evidence in proving that innocents have been executed etc would be met with the same indifference by those in the legal profession as a blight on their professionalism. If there were any miscarriages of justice whereby an innocent has been executed it would be very difficult to prove because to many on the pro dp side have a vested interest and strong personal belief in that its working. I genuinely believe that some think if one is executed accidentally then that is a price to pay.
I would find it very difficult to come to terms with anyone deliberately going out of their way to ensure a conviction especially if they knew that the individual in the dock is innocent. That would be evil beyond words and callous in the extreme.
However saying that, its possible it has happened. To say its impossible is incredible also.
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