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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 21:25:55 GMT -6
If someone was proved to innocent after being executed, then it would mean the end of the dp. So therefore such proof is hardly likely to be forthcoming. I am one that does not believe the finding of an innocent executed, would end executions in the US. Mankind has a tendency to try to "fix" mistakes. It would cause a long moratorium, but after a certain length of time, many states would resume executions. I understand states like California would end it, but for other states (like Texas), a major swift in public opinion would have to take place. I believe it will take years after the execution, to discover that a mistake had been made. After many years DP supporters will agree it was a sad situation, but be under the belief that the process or science has improved so much a mistake can not be made again. (Hypothetical) Take a person who was executed in the 80's or 90's and recently found to be innocent of the charges that led to his execution. Then let’s say that DNA evidence was found to "set the record straight". Many of the supporters of the DP (not all) would state something to this effect "That happened XXX years ago, the science is so much better now, it could never happen again". In this scenario, people may believe that the fix has already been implemented and are satisfied that it couldn't happen again. Funny. In over 33 years and 1100+ executions the wrong dirtbag hasn't been offed yet. When you can show even one example, get back to us. There has been numerous death row exoneration and while that shows the appeals process does work, it does not mean it is 100% accurate ---- which it isn't (as I stated in another topic). Wrongful convictions have happened in Canada, UK and the US, but please remember that all are not discovered. Asking members to suggest "possible" wrongful convictions and then return the tired default response with no attempt to debate the merits of the specific case, is not only wrong, but shows that you would be one of the "supporters" that would believe the system could be fixed, which is a fools fantasy. Ron However, you cannot give one case in 33 years where an innocent person was executed. There isn't one case to provide a shred of proof that an innocent person was executed. I am absolutely confident that the appeal process would prevent an innocent person from being executed as it has in the past. We allow inmates to appeal every issue of their conviction and sentence. We even allow inmates to repeatedly challange LI as a means.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 22:07:54 GMT -6
However, you cannot give one case in 33 years where an innocent person was executed. There isn't one case to provide a shred of proof that an innocent person was executed. I should first explain that I am not the one to debate "innocent claims", as I can usually default to guilty and can be certain that I am correct at least 99.8% percent of the time. As I stated in another topic was that the appeals process is in reality a quality system, which is very subjective by nature. NASA quality system is by far more robust and is usually very objective (pass / fail is measured with a high degree of precision and accuracy). Yet by the 2 shuttle incidents, we can safely say it is not perfect. So I will answer you in a similar fashion. (Other than my wife) Please name any person, object or process that is perfect and then I will gladly respond to your silly response. I am absolutely confident that the appeal process would prevent an innocent person from being executed as it has in the past. We allow inmates to appeal every issue of their conviction and sentence. Ooooppps, guess you didn't bother reading the other persons previous post. "Felker received a stay of execution in June, 1996, when his case became a test of the provisions of the 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act that limited federal habeas appeals. The Supreme Court accepted the Act's limitation on such appeals." Oh well good try ! We even allow inmates to repeatedly challange LI as a means. What does Lethal Injection have to do with innocence ? It is silly to complain about the method, when the act is what should be questioned. Ron
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Mar 16, 2009 22:09:35 GMT -6
Can you name someone who did not commit or even take part in the crime for which they were executed? Nope. But, why change the subject? Precisely ~ although, arguably, "He simply got executed for the wrong crime" doesn't suggest any 'IF'. Likewise, I'm arguing the "IF" of the scenario. You think it's okay to execute the wrong guy since he's a pieceapoo slimeball anyway (and I do understand that sentiment). All I'm doing is playing that out the resta the way ~~~ execute the wrong pieceapoo slimeball (innocent) and that murder victim didn't get justice, nor did the MVS, and nor did the people since the other pieceapoo slimball who actually did the crime is (sing it with me) out there somewhere... One less scumbag is one less scumbag. Such an example is John Spirko from The Land of The Crazy Buckeyes! After having rediculous appeals to delay the execution and praise from the anti movement, Spirko was finally commuted to LWOP. Regardless, he already had a previous murder conviction of a 72-year-old lady and numerous other violent crime, which included braining a prison guard while trying to escape. If Spirko was juiced, it would not have mattered. Small wonder the parole board ignored the case. An inmate can have a previous capital crime and/or a long history of brutal crimes that make them unfit to ever enter society again, but if they are wrongfully convicted, they must be "innocent," right?
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 16, 2009 22:36:34 GMT -6
However, you cannot give one case in 33 years where an innocent person was executed. There isn't one case to provide a shred of proof that an innocent person was executed. I should first explain that I am not the one to debate "innocent claims", as I can usually default to guilty and can be certain that I am correct at least 99.8% percent of the time. As I stated in another topic was that the appeals process is in reality a quality system, which is very subjective by nature. NASA quality system is by far more robust and is usually very objective (pass / fail is measured with a high degree of precision and accuracy). Yet by the 2 shuttle incidents, we can safely say it is not perfect. So I will answer you in a similar fashion. (Other than my wife) Please name any person, object or process that is perfect and then I will gladly respond to your silly response. Ooooppps, guess you didn't bother reading the other persons previous post. "Felker received a stay of execution in June, 1996, when his case became a test of the provisions of the 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act that limited federal habeas appeals. The Supreme Court accepted the Act's limitation on such appeals." Oh well good try ! We even allow inmates to repeatedly challange LI as a means. What does Lethal Injection have to do with innocence ? It is silly to complain about the method, when the act is what should be questioned. Ron What are you babbling about? I couldn't care what you default to. The bottom line is that an innocent person has not been executed in the U.S. going back to 1976. That, by definition, is a perfect process. Your shuttle analogy has nothing to do with innocent people being executed, and replying to it would be a waste of time. Are you telling me that Felker was an innocent person who was executed? Funny how Felker did not appeal any of the evidence claims until the death warrent had be signed. I agree that allowing inmates to challange LI is silly. Yet, stays continue to be granted for this very reason. Note these challanges are not contesting guilt but the manner of the sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 22:36:52 GMT -6
Nope. But, why change the subject? Precisely ~ although, arguably, "He simply got executed for the wrong crime" doesn't suggest any 'IF'. Likewise, I'm arguing the "IF" of the scenario. You think it's okay to execute the wrong guy since he's a pieceapoo slimeball anyway (and I do understand that sentiment). All I'm doing is playing that out the resta the way ~~~ execute the wrong pieceapoo slimeball (innocent) and that murder victim didn't get justice, nor did the MVS, and nor did the people since the other pieceapoo slimball who actually did the crime is (sing it with me) out there somewhere... One less scumbag is one less scumbag. Such an example is John Spirko from The Land of The Crazy Buckeyes! After having rediculous appeals to delay the execution and praise from the anti movement, Spirko was finally commuted to LWOP. Regardless, he already had a previous murder conviction of a 72-year-old lady and numerous other violent crime, which included braining a prison guard while trying to escape. If Spirko was juiced, it would not have mattered. Small wonder the parole board ignored the case. An inmate can have a previous capital crime and/or a long history of brutal crimes that make them unfit to ever enter society again, but if they are wrongfully convicted, they must be "innocent," right? Here's the form letter: Dear _____________, It has come to our attention since the execution of ____________ that although he/she was tried and convicted and sentenced to death in the murder of your (insert relationship of murder victim or maybe the victim's name if ya'll can remember it) wasn't actually his/her murderer. As it has been ___ years, in all likelihood your (insert relationship of murder victim)'s murderer will go unpunished for that crime. We are terribly sorry for the inconvenience, for the years of you hating the wrong person, and also that perhaps your loved one's murderer is your neighbor. It should give you some great bit of comfort and closure that the wrongfully executed pieceopoo was at least pondscum who had a rap sheet long as a country mile and might have even kilt someone, although we can't be sure. Sincerely, Whaddadope
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 22:42:38 GMT -6
I should first explain that I am not the one to debate "innocent claims", as I can usually default to guilty and can be certain that I am correct at least 99.8% percent of the time. As I stated in another topic was that the appeals process is in reality a quality system, which is very subjective by nature. NASA quality system is by far more robust and is usually very objective (pass / fail is measured with a high degree of precision and accuracy). Yet by the 2 shuttle incidents, we can safely say it is not perfect. So I will answer you in a similar fashion. (Other than my wife) Please name any person, object or process that is perfect and then I will gladly respond to your silly response. Ooooppps, guess you didn't bother reading the other persons previous post. "Felker received a stay of execution in June, 1996, when his case became a test of the provisions of the 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act that limited federal habeas appeals. The Supreme Court accepted the Act's limitation on such appeals." Oh well good try ! What does Lethal Injection have to do with innocence ? It is silly to complain about the method, when the act is what should be questioned. Ron What are you babbling about? I couldn't care what you default to. The bottom line is that an innocent person has not been executed in the U.S. going back to 1976. That, by definition, is a perfect process. Your shuttle analogy has nothing to do with innocent people being executed, and replying to it would be a waste of time. Are you telling me that Felker was an innocent person who was executed? Funny how Felker did not appeal any of the evidence claims until the death warrent had be signed. I agree that allowing inmates to challange LI is silly. Yet, stays continue to be granted for this very reason. Note these challanges are not contesting guilt but the manner of the sentence.
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Post by Californian on Mar 17, 2009 0:25:53 GMT -6
Soldiers deserting was a major problem during WWII. Both sides tried and executed people of deserting. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think 40 or so were executed by the US for deserting. Eddie Slovik was the only U.S. servicemember executed for desertion in WWII. Quite a few servicemembers where executed for civil crimes like murder and rape, which was a capital offense under rocks and shoals.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 17, 2009 2:38:58 GMT -6
Well it appears some learnt from the first war then, we shot loads for what was percieved dessertion only to find that it was PTSD. Hundreads were shot on all sides.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 17, 2009 3:40:40 GMT -6
I should first explain that I am not the one to debate "innocent claims", as I can usually default to guilty and can be certain that I am correct at least 99.8% percent of the time. As I stated in another topic was that the appeals process is in reality a quality system, which is very subjective by nature. NASA quality system is by far more robust and is usually very objective (pass / fail is measured with a high degree of precision and accuracy). Yet by the 2 shuttle incidents, we can safely say it is not perfect. So I will answer you in a similar fashion. (Other than my wife) Please name any person, object or process that is perfect and then I will gladly respond to your silly response. Ooooppps, guess you didn't bother reading the other persons previous post. "Felker received a stay of execution in June, 1996, when his case became a test of the provisions of the 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act that limited federal habeas appeals. The Supreme Court accepted the Act's limitation on such appeals." Oh well good try ! What does Lethal Injection have to do with innocence ? It is silly to complain about the method, when the act is what should be questioned. Ron What are you babbling about? I couldn't care what you default to. The bottom line is that an innocent person has not been executed in the U.S. going back to 1976. That, by definition, is a perfect process. Your shuttle analogy has nothing to do with innocent people being executed, and replying to it would be a waste of time. Are you telling me that Felker was an innocent person who was executed? Funny how Felker did not appeal any of the evidence claims until the death warrent had be signed. I agree that allowing inmates to challange LI is silly. Yet, stays continue to be granted for this very reason. Note these challanges are not contesting guilt but the manner of the sentence. How can you be absolutely sure that no innocent has been executed. Do you really think it would be immediately known if there was?
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 17, 2009 3:47:22 GMT -6
It's like any human endeavor ~ the more you do something, the more likelihood there'll be an 'oops'. It's like this. I go to Vegas and throw a little money down. I have NEVER come home with any winnings.................. Odds are sooner or later I will First comparing execution with winning at vegas is a bad analogy to put it mildly. Secondly, I have to completely disagree with you. You continue to prattle about a future "oops" that may or may not ever happen. Between forensic science and the appeal process, the odds are against your future "oops". I have viewed a programme about so called DNA, its apparentyl not as infallible as amny lay folk were initially led to believe, cross contamination ans such can still lead to mistakes, it still require absolute human diligence regarding the process for it to eb of any use. Prosecurial misbehaviour can still determine an outcome, or indeed sloppiness from the work go with police on the ground.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 17, 2009 3:51:46 GMT -6
Funny you're so sure of that. Is that because to think otherwise is unthinkable? Translation: You cannot point to a single case of an innocent person being executed. If you could, we would have heard about it well before now. Of its nature it will always eb difficult to establish, however only wishful thinking would lead someone to assume because it is unknown (as it would by definition be), that therefore it is likely not to have occurred. Surely as a prison guard you have learned more about the possibilities of humankind, on both sides for misbehaviour.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 17, 2009 4:59:41 GMT -6
wasn't there a thread about 6 months ago with regard to some crocked Texas state attorney who falsified loads of docs in loads of trials which some ended in execution. perhaps David could help there or one of the moderators, Doc, Charlene or Kay maybe.
I'm sure there was , the bloke was being investigated because of false testimonies and evidence etc. I'm sure some guy was executed or maybe more because of it. What about that guy who was hanged and later found innocent by DNA, also that bloke who spent 30 years in prison and died and when DNA checks were made it was not his. Mistakes are made all the time which is why i cant support a unilateral call for the DP. Not until the law and legal process is failsafe. It will never be failsafe unless the human element is removed from the equation
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 17, 2009 6:02:34 GMT -6
wasn't there a thread about 6 months ago with regard to some crocked Texas state attorney who falsified loads of docs in loads of trials which some ended in execution. perhaps David could help there or one of the moderators, Doc, Charlene or Kay maybe. I'm sure there was , the bloke was being investigated because of false testimonies and evidence etc. I'm sure some guy was executed or maybe more because of it. What about that guy who was hanged and later found innocent by DNA, also that bloke who spent 30 years in prison and died and when DNA checks were made it was not his. Mistakes are made all the time which is why i cant support a unilateral call for the DP. Not until the law and legal process is failsafe. It will never be failsafe unless the human element is removed from the equation Gilchrist was a former disgraced Oklahoma prosecutor who royally fooked up DNA testing. Soem of ehr cases were death row ones.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 7:03:52 GMT -6
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Post by phatkat on Mar 17, 2009 7:11:21 GMT -6
The bottom line is that an innocent person has not been executed in the U.S. going back to 1976. That, by definition, is a perfect process. I'd like to know how you're so sure. Is your "proof" that no innocent person has ever been executed the fact that a small group of people on an online forum have not, in the last 24 or so hours, been able to provide proof that one innocent person has been executed? Or have you read through all 1100+ case files and gone over all the evidence yourself to the point that you can be 100% sure that what we have is a perfect process? Just wondered. I haven't gone through all that history myself (don't have the kinda time, and that's a bit of a grim hobby), but given my propensity to doubt that any system or person in the US is "perfect", and my belief that the more power you give someone the less perfect they're likely to be, I have trouble getting your statement to resonate in my brain.
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Post by phatkat on Mar 17, 2009 7:14:59 GMT -6
I said that he deserved death for another crime even IF he was innocent of the murder. However, a jury of his peers didn't think so.
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Post by phatkat on Mar 17, 2009 7:15:48 GMT -6
if they are wrongfully convicted, they must be "innocent," right? Err, by definition, yes.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 17, 2009 8:25:43 GMT -6
[ And where they truly innocent? Or is this a case of what goes around comes around and a justice was served in a rather circuitous way? So, it seems that the answer to the first point is no, in recent history at least. It is hard to prove that a truly innocent person was put to death. Second, what goes around comes around - definitely maybe. There is reasonable doubt here and a solid commitment to let it pass. In the end, justice was served in a round about way. WW, I do like your apology form letter. First of all, I apologize for dropping one on the board and becoming absent. Work does interfere from time to time. I started this thread after doing some reading and researching. The innocence question is one of the counter arguments for the anti's and I phrased it just like it appears on many, many articles and websites - ambiguous. It is designed to be that way. While we know from fairly good records that a truly innocent person has not been put to death (from about 1950 on); the argument then shifts to the latter and that discussion is not given to exact proof. It is, instead, a gathering of thoughts, facts, past history and, in the end, judgment calls. As we know, the decision to initially impose the DP is well thought out. The case is presented first to the guilt and then to the sentence and in that sentencing phase a great deal of effort is made by the defense, not to convince the jury of guilt, but to convince the jury of whether the DP is really warranted. I personally feel that we have made great strides in protecting the population, applying the DP when it is warranted, and in ensuring it is properly administered through a deliberate appeals process. This probably was not the case in the past. This is the purpose for this debate and reason we exist here. The checks and balances must be in place to ensure that the answer to both questions is indeed No and No.
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Post by Charlene on Mar 17, 2009 9:23:07 GMT -6
The bottom line is that an innocent person has not been executed in the U.S. going back to 1976. That, by definition, is a perfect process. I'd like to know how you're so sure. Is your "proof" that no innocent person has ever been executed the fact that a small group of people on an online forum have not, in the last 24 or so hours, been able to provide proof that one innocent person has been executed? Or have you read through all 1100+ case files and gone over all the evidence yourself to the point that you can be 100% sure that what we have is a perfect process? Just wondered. I haven't gone through all that history myself (don't have the kinda time, and that's a bit of a grim hobby), but given my propensity to doubt that any system or person in the US is "perfect", and my belief that the more power you give someone the less perfect they're likely to be, I have trouble getting your statement to resonate in my brain. A small group of people in a forum in the past 24 hours? Good grief, how about the entire anti-death penalty community in the last 30 years - does that make any difference to your standard of proof?
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 17, 2009 9:29:55 GMT -6
I'd like to know how you're so sure. Is your "proof" that no innocent person has ever been executed the fact that a small group of people on an online forum have not, in the last 24 or so hours, been able to provide proof that one innocent person has been executed? Or have you read through all 1100+ case files and gone over all the evidence yourself to the point that you can be 100% sure that what we have is a perfect process? Just wondered. I haven't gone through all that history myself (don't have the kinda time, and that's a bit of a grim hobby), but given my propensity to doubt that any system or person in the US is "perfect", and my belief that the more power you give someone the less perfect they're likely to be, I have trouble getting your statement to resonate in my brain. A small group of people in a forum in the past 24 hours? Good grief, how about the entire anti-death penalty community in the last 30 years - does that make any difference to your standard of proof? Frankly it would'nt to mine. I have heard pro's here who wont accept innocence even when the State lets people go free because THEY cant produce proof. I have also seen cases like Joyce Gilchrists and note the way she has not been prosecuted though any real form of justice would require she stand trial for attempted murder. I think it is naieve in the extreme to wish or hope or even beleive that because cases have not come to light we can sit back confident in the assumption all is well. You cannopt rely on humankind in that kind of way, there are too many vested interests operating in a variety of ways on both sides. Some have come within an hour of execution only to be released. That was not the system but either God or a heck of a lot of good luck.
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Post by Lauren on Mar 17, 2009 11:57:09 GMT -6
I guess it is really hard to say how much innocent people got executed pre-dna era, but back then, the DP standards were much lower and anything from theft to rape was considered for capital punishment.
I know in Canada, Steven Truscott, an innocent person, was about to be executed (he was a minor), but Canada had just abolished the DP.
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 17, 2009 15:18:37 GMT -6
Nope. But, why change the subject? It's not changing the subject, I'm trying to make the point that the scenario you mention has never happened as far as we know. If the antis still can't prove an innocent was executed after years of diligent research then the only conclusion I can reach is that it has not happened. I never said it was OK to let killers get off, only that I don't feel any great sympathy for Felker.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 16:15:55 GMT -6
The bottom line is that an innocent person has not been executed in the U.S. going back to 1976. That, by definition, is a perfect process. Isn't ignorance blissful ! Your shuttle analogy has nothing to do with innocent people being executed, and replying to it would be a waste of time. Please see reply above. Are you telling me that Felker was an innocent person who was executed? Funny how Felker did not appeal any of the evidence claims until the death warrent had be signed. Not only do you not bother to read another persons post, you also do not bother to read your own. I was in no way suggesting his was a case of possible innocence. We allow inmates to appeal every issue of their conviction and sentence. "... his case became a test of the provisions of the 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act that limited federal habeas appeals. The Supreme Court accepted the Act's limitation on such appeals." I agree that allowing inmates to challange LI is silly. Yet, stays continue to be granted for this very reason. Note these challanges are not contesting guilt but the manner of the sentence. It always struck me as odd that you can not hurt an inmate with a pin *jerk* while killing them. I guess that is what happens when you try to sanitize a horrible penalty ! Ron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 17:32:10 GMT -6
Nope. But, why change the subject? It's not changing the subject, I'm trying to make the point that the scenario you mention has never happened as far as we know. Once again, I didn't bring up the scenerio, the thread topic brought it... I simply followed such a post to what (seems to me) would be the obvious conclusion *if* it happened. Of course, there's always another conclusion to jump to ~ that any evidence of such a wrongful death would just as likely have been buried around the time of the execution. Thus, without such evidence there is nothing to 'prove', regardless whether or not the executed murderer was the actual murderer, so he/she's a guilty POS by default.... and ya'll can go on blindly believing it ain't happened ~ yet.
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Post by Matt on Mar 17, 2009 19:12:15 GMT -6
I'm wondering what the innocence argument does for those who advocate for the abolition of the DP in favor of true LWOP.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 19:45:53 GMT -6
I'm wondering what the innocence argument does for those who advocate for the abolition of the DP in favor of true LWOP. I don't believe it does anything. I only think it's naive to pretend like we have always and will always get it right. In either case, there's an inevitable 'oops' we have to accept ~ or we might as well forego any punishment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 20:14:12 GMT -6
I'm wondering what the innocence argument does for those who advocate for the abolition of the DP in favor of true LWOP. I am one that truly doesn't believe the "Innocence claim" should be part of the death penalty debate. Wrongful convictions is a topic on it's own. The death penalty is only associated with wrongful convictions, as some DP cases are wrongful convictions. I know this is over simplifying the DP debate, but in reality the solution is simple. To end the DP, just stop executing people (Change the law). Wrongful convictions is a lot more complex, because it is a fine balance of ensuring a person is guilty without allowing convicts escape justice. Tip the scale in one direction and too many criminals walk on "technicalities", tip it in the other will increase wrongful convictions. Wrongful convictions are an issue with all justice systems, whether the state (country) has the DP or not. Ron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 20:30:23 GMT -6
I know this is over simplifying the DP debate, but in reality the solution is simple. To end the DP, just stop executing people (Change the law). Ron I have a much better idea, you and the anti's get the Murderers to stop killing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 20:42:47 GMT -6
I know this is over simplifying the DP debate, but in reality the solution is simple. To end the DP, just stop executing people (Change the law). Ron I have a much better idea, you and the anti's get the Murderers to stop killing. Please understand, this was not an attempt to preach against the DP. My intent was to demonstrate (I guess unsuccessfully) that the DP only needs to change 1 law, where as correcting wrongful convictions requires changing and tweaking many laws and constitutional rights, all without upsetting the fine balance of the justice system. Ron Now this is preaching, justice should not include killing people (lol, sorry had to do it)
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 17, 2009 22:26:21 GMT -6
Of course, there's always another conclusion to jump to ~ that any evidence of such a wrongful death would just as likely have been buried around the time of the execution. Thus, without such evidence there is nothing to 'prove', regardless whether or not the executed murderer was the actual murderer, so he/she's a guilty POS by default.... and ya'll can go on blindly believing it ain't happened ~ yet. That did not stop them from testing the DNA from the Roger Coleman and Wayne Felker cases years after their executions.
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