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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 20:02:53 GMT -6
If your correct & I am mistaken, than why is that? What has made it less violent in regards to terrorist, criminals murdering? Do you think that it is the death penalty that has had this effect? How do you explain the fall in crime in Europe, where the death penalty is not applied? How do you explain the drop in crime in the U.S where the DP is still applied. Neither has anything to do with the DP the rise or lower of crime.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 12:51:52 GMT -6
yours truly Euroliberal Nils [/quote] Really? Well I'll be dang" I never would have guessed that. Nils, A Euroliberal ? Dang !!! Ain't tat a mine blowa !!
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 12:29:35 GMT -6
[/p] [/quote] Hello. I think you are mistaken. The world is getting less and less violent over time. Not more violent.
Best. Nils.
[/quote] If your correct & I am mistaken, than why is that?
What has made it less violent in regards to terrorist, criminals murdering?]Hello Whitediamond. I suggest a very good read for you regarding The long term decline of viloence and violent deaths in our societies: Steven Pinker - "The Better Angels of Our Nature". Here is a link: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature. My best wishes Nils [/quote] I suggest you better re-read that book & apply it also to the horrific (long list ) of innocents that have & still are suffering. Brought onto so many in this world by these psychopaths. And please spare me the fake words of how you care for victims too. The post/threads here speak volumes on your concerns for them. As many other anti's post have too.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 12:00:52 GMT -6
OMG Nils, what the hell is your point?
Anger is often a rational response to unfairness, unjustified cruelty, & or other immoral acts. So? And even more so for an MVS.
T will not waste my time or anyones here by pulling up the quotes of what anti's have said here the vengence/abuse etc, to MVS's. Just like this thread you appear to be so proud of.
Never showing any of your so called, empathy, sympathy, compassion, here only for the murderers. Many post/threads here by some anti's too many were just as anger filled/hate/vengence/ deception even towards the MVS"s !!! To shame bully, intimidate etc. Did you or any other anti show any rage towards that? No
Did any pro run a thread as this one "? Hatefilled yet of your so called selfrightous? No ! I highly doubt they would waste their time.
Just remember, sympathy, empathy, compassion, can be taken to far, like anything thing else in life, so you are screwed too. Only I won't play your sweet anti' game of quotes on the horrible things anti's have done & said on here. That is just one of the many numerous reasons this board has gone Quiet.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 0:58:29 GMT -6
Anti's do hate when connecting murder with abortion. Kinda blows a lot of their self rightousness bs. You've got a problem here. If abortion and DP are the same thing and… Abortion is very very BAD then… The DP is ALSO very very ___________ (1 point) No twisted again, it is BS to kill the innocent, like murderer's do. No, it does not blow self rightousness at all. Murderer's use heinous ways of torturing & kliling too, just like abortion does, rips them apart. Minus the point you gave yourself
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 0:54:14 GMT -6
So, should we have no DP at all due to a "murderers family may" suffer huge amounts of psychological anguish? Is that what this is suppose to mean? You tell me. You were the one who said that you don't like unnecessary suffering, whether it's a murderer or not. So it sounds like you ought to be in favor of ending the dp, if you're consistent. That would take away the additional suffering not only of the POS himself but also, in many cases, of the family and scumpals who love him. No do not spin what I feel, I do not like seeing suffering. No one is making the POS suffer only he did that to himself, no one had intentions for any suffering as too what went wrong on that or even know if he did suffer. No I am not concerned with penpals who get involved with an DR inmates. I do not like to see a actual family member suffer who love's their family member no matter what or who or how their family member murder another or others, that is in the laws hands. I do find it hard to understand why the family would feel the psychological anguish they feel" makes their loved one any different from the laws which the murderer made the choice to bring onto them. Should they have special outcomes for their loved one, based on their love for them? Is that what your saying? I certainly am not.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2015 0:29:27 GMT -6
Doctors do abortions " on demand" . For no other reason in majority of the thousands abortions per day. Not to save a life. They break the Oath. Hello Whitediamonds. As has been demonstrated endless number of times on this board there is a good amount of delight expressd when the condemned suffers during the execution process. I have collected a couple of hundred quotes over the years, and they have been posted on this board at least twice. Such quotes reveal much what is the topic here. Namely wrath, anger, revenge and outright lust for blood. I am not surprised. Most of us have felt that way. WHY DENY THIS OBVIOUS FACT? And - what has abortion got to do with the DP? You bring it up in each end every thread - why not join an abortion discussion board? Best wishes for 2015 Nils :-) I did not deny or not notice the delight expressed (by some) when a condemmed suffered during some executions. Do not paint all pro's in a category of delighted,even on this board.. I am not denying I feel anger at babies being raped/murdered, horrendous murders, burning them alive, buried alive,chop off body parts. I have extreme anger towards these sick POS. Yet, if I found it normal to torture them in the same manner as they murdered & the length of time the victim went thru, before died only then would I say I am really one of them. Abortion & the death penalty go hand in hand though some want to deny it. Abortion is a wicked method of killing an innocent " human" at any stage of life inside the womb is human not born anything other. Life is cheap. Face that fact Jt iAn "IT" & nothing more. Come on the medical field knows better than that. They have to kill "IT" Now if you want the pregnancy, it is a human baby suddenly? Telling mothers how to be sure their baby is safe from cig smoke, drinking etc or shame on you for killing/harming the baby? Anti's say, by having a DP we are teaching murder is ok not setting an example. BS abortion is sending the message it is ok to murder. Depending, on circumstances. Anti's do hate when connecting murder with abortion. Kinda blows a lot of their self rightousness bs.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 23:33:12 GMT -6
I think sympathy is the wrong word though? Horrific errors ( thru stupidity) or " purposely intended torture", is never acceptable I want nothing to suffer four legs or two. Ending life as mericiful as possible as I stated" I can agree with under certain circumstances is the right thing to do. The death penalty, however, causes a huge amount of psychological anguish. Not just for the inmate, but for the inmate's family. I'm not saying he doesn't have it coming, but if you're against all suffering why aren't you also against that? Yes, it does cause suffering for the inmates family ( not in all cases though) nor did the "actual" murdered person or family members of victims bring that onto to them. Their own family member. did that to them only. In some cases they murdered their own family too. No, their psychological anguish cannot be misplaced onto the state or anywhere else. All the psychological suffering was created by "one only". In some cases the family member is the ( wife), who did not know them until after they were on DR, married him knowing he would be executed. Some of their families are very dysfunctional with criminal records. Created their own monster's. Some actually had no family.. So, should we have no DP at all due to a "murderers family may" suffer huge amounts of psychological anguish? Is that what this is suppose to mean?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 22:08:49 GMT -6
The bottom line for this entire subject is that anti-DP activists want murderers to suffer during the administration of justice. There is no reason, other than anti-DP fervor, that a pleasant execution could not be accomplished. There are increasing numbers of people who kill themselves with some degree physician assistance. The arguments against this practice do not involve pain or suffering encountered during self-execution. Also there are hundreds of thousands of killings of assuredly innocent human beings by abortion. There is no reason why murderers could not be killed using the same methods used for abortion. Surely our concern would not be less for the suffering of hundreds of thousands of innocents than it would be for a few thousand murderers each year. Trained doctors don't help with executions because they take an oath to do no harm, not because of anti-DP activists (if that's what you are getting at). Doctors do abortions " on demand" . For no other reason in majority of the thousands abortions per day. Not to save a life. They break the Oath.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 22:05:21 GMT -6
No sorry, I do not want anyone to suffer or tortured. Ending life as merciful as humane as possible I can agree with, under certain circumstances.. Yes. I wish it had gone down in 15 mins the whole procedure like the majority of executions still are. I admit you surprise me that you have so much sympathy for murderers. I think sympathy is the wrong word though? Horrific errors ( thru stupidity) or " purposely intended torture", is never acceptable I want nothing to suffer four legs or two. Ending life as mericiful as possible as I stated" I can agree with under certain circumstances is the right thing to do.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 21:49:50 GMT -6
Is this the post you were talking about Bernard? Yeah. I do not see a number to the post anymore either, did not notice until now..
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 21:14:32 GMT -6
It was David Waisel, the associate professor of anaesthesia in Boston quoted in Nils's article, who said that "it was impossible to “know for sure” whether an inmate on the gurney is in pain or not". I wasn't saying that. I was just clarifying what HE said. Right now I don't know which of you to believe. It would help me if you told me your qualifications in anesthesiology, so that I can compare them with Waisel's. We do know he was on an "overdose" to the extreme. Fact Ms Brown who attended the execution stated" You "don't know" what excruciating is' Excruciating is seeing your Dad lying in a pool of blood. Cold hard facts without the aid of drugs for her to live with for a lifetime. It is impossible" to know ".. Is this the post you were talking about Bernard?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 21:07:56 GMT -6
I have a right to my thoughts, so back to topic now. I wonder if being a low dose 50mg administered "many times" is what took 2 hrs verses the right amount at 500mg one hit? Would have had a fast result of only minutes? Maybe. Either way we're agreeing that these comedians down at the pen don't have the slightest idea what they're doing. I agree. I never "argued/debated/questioned/ that point. Would not go there with a ten foot pole, that would be utter nonsense.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 21:04:31 GMT -6
Where did I argue/state the creep had it coming?. It's your general attitude. Don't forget I've been reading your posts for a long time, ever since your English became decipherable. Just recently, for example, you quoted someone saying that prisoners/antis don't know what excruciating means. Excruciating is having to live with the pain of having a loved one killed by a murderer, they said. I could tell that you felt the same way, and I have a lot of time and respect for that argument. But I'm just saying it sounds like "Who gives a *crap* if the creep has to suffer? Look what he did to others!" We're not quarreling Smart Bear because we like each other too much. I'm just encouraging you as a friend to get in touch with your true pro feelings. Come on, admit it to me. You WANT the jackass to suffer because THAT'S WHAT HE DESERVES. Right? Come on, give me something here. Please re-read that post, or give me the number of the post,or bring it back to the top.. I do not believe it stated anything about prisoners or anti's. I do remember I posted her words exactly after the execution. I agreed with her 100%. I cannot speak for what she mean't it was not my Dad murdered left in a pool of blood for me to see. So, I cannot speak for her meaning " he was a jackass & desevered to suffer. He still had it better two hrs is nothing compared to a lifetime. Although who should judge her feelings? I " do" find that a natural response/meaning if in her shoes. . I believe she has earned that right to her emotions (sadly). A very normal response. I can't give you something that is not there in my heart & mind, what you want to hear". Because it is not there . Thank the creator I have never been in her shoes or any MVS's shoes. No sorry, I do not want anyone to suffer or tortured. Ending life as merciful as humane as possible I can agree with, under certain circumstances.. Yes. I wish it had gone down in 15 mins the whole procedure like the majority of executions still are. Because I do not agree with all anyone one say's, (professional or not) pro or anti. Odd how even scientist, medical, no matter what area, you will never get all l100 % to agree or be right. That professional your going by actually played it safe & upfront "do not know for sure" at least he is honest. SB
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 19:43:20 GMT -6
Agree, it was given 15 times, "but" it was 50mg not 500mg which it should have been too. That's not the issue. On the one hand, in the context of a hospital, it is given in small, controlled doses, by highly trained medical staff, taking account of the patient's height, weight, gender, health history, allergies and drug sensitivities, all while sensors attached to the patient monitor heart rate and other responses, with the trained professionals controlling the dose in response to these measures. In this context, we have a wealth of data about how it affects patients, including reports after the fact from the patients themselves. Contrast this with some cuckoo at the penitentiary applying a bunch of stuff that, they guesstimate, ought to kill a man if you prescribe enough of it, then, when he starts gasping and choking and going into adrenaline shock, just doubling the dose, tripling it, quadrupling it, … 15-timesing it until the guy finally stays down. The former procedure is called "medicine". The latter is called "assclownery". If you want to argue that the creep has it coming, that's one thing. But don't pretend to me that you think (or care) that it is humane. Where did I argue/state the creep had it coming?. And I am not now. Where the heck did that come from? I was not arguing with you either, you would certainly know if I was. I have a right to my thoughts, so back to topic now. I wonder if being a low dose 50mg administered "many times" is what took 2 hrs verses the right amount at 500mg one hit? Would have had a fast result of only minutes? Do not tell me I am pretending I care, on whats humane. Where did you get that professional information from for your facts about me, or things I never stated?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 18:07:45 GMT -6
Medazolam & hydromorphone is used ny some individuals a carefully monitored control drug mix. Never given to the extreme to know how the effects would be, surely would die though. The question is whether, when that cocktail is given in such huge doses as to be lethal, it causes suffering. The fact that it acts as an anesthetic in small doses does not tell us how it acts in large doses. Agree, it was given 15 times, "but" it was 50mg not 500mg which it should have been too.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 18:00:03 GMT -6
When and where has such a drug been used? What was that drug? In the article that heads this thread, the new "experimental" drug was a cocktail of midazolam and hydromorphone. Medazolam & hydromorphone is used ny some individuals a carefully monitored control drug mix. Never given to the extreme to know how the effects would be, surely would die though.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 16:54:27 GMT -6
It is relevant to this. Your using the constitution, so here is the constitution what is was intended for verses what it has become. Again, Define cruel & unsual Punishment per the constitution's meaning? Where in the constitution directly does it apply to the DP, or even abortion? Abortion can be found in the oath for the medical , never do harm. We aren't talking about abortion Smart Bear. I have made no claims as to whether abortion is constitutional or not. The eighth amendment restricts government imposed punishments in general so that they may not be cruel and unusual. I see no real benefit to arguing over our differing interpretations of "cruel", "and" and "unusual" here. We can agree that, whatever they mean, the question of whether a drug causes undue and unusual suffering is relevant to whether it is constitutional. But, even your one" professional does not know if he felt pain, unknown remember. So, moot point to begin with. So, how was it unconstitutional. Whats left to go on? Opinions life exeperiences to try to know is all that is left. Since the Pope was brought into this too, he is going on blind faith. Does he have facts of afterlife or how painful it is to die even naturally? Fact being raped or murdered by a madman, we all know for a fact" that is cruel & unusual pain & torture intending to cause & inflict as brutally as they wish or length of time suffered, that is not an unknown by any "human" or professional.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 16:32:32 GMT -6
Whatever the right definition is? Ok you do not know. Why do we use a different drug? Why do we NOT want to say in the U.S, where new execution drugs come from? Could it be for the same reason "agenda's " will go so far as to bomb clinics or murder those medical people who do abortions? Murder is becoming acceptable, not for murderer's though. Babies, yes Ooops, forgot human fetus is not a human child, has not shown himself to the world so not protected by the constitution. Nor as those already murdered by an unnlawful criminal act, to late for them too. Well, going by you than the firing squad is the method proven to be painless & fast on that point. As far as the constitution It's orginal frame has become water logged, infested with beatles, mildew by expansionist, leaching into the fabric of the frame . In another word's it is a derailed train. What is happening today is exactly what our Founding Fathers feared. As for civic's unfortunately it is no longer taught by commie teacher's, unions, & Government Expansionist You're on a free-associating right-wing tirade, riffing on abortion, constitutional interpretation, reds under the bed, etc. I can't be sidelined into all of these topics. Pick one point and run with it. If it's relevant to the thread I'll answer. It is relevant to this. Your using the constitution, so here is the constitution what is was intended for verses what it has become. Again, Define cruel & unsual Punishment per the constitution's meaning? Where in the constitution directly does it apply to the DP, or even abortion? Abortion can be found in the oath for the medical , never do harm.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 15:47:55 GMT -6
That's taxation & fines, what about cold blooded murder? The amendment has nothing to do with taxation. Oh what about those who cannot bond out at all, agains't the constitution too?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 15:36:48 GMT -6
Define cruel & unusual punishments? Then for who? Whatever the right definition is, it's clear that if death by sodium pentathol is both painless and historically standard, then the use of a different drug that causes great suffering is both cruel and unusual. Whatever the right definition is? Ok you do not know. Why do we use a different drug? Why do we NOT want to say in the U.S, where new execution drugs come from? Could it be for the same reason "agenda's " will go so far as to bomb clinics or murder those medical people who do abortions? Murder is becoming acceptable, not for murderer's though. Babies, yes Ooops, forgot human fetus is not a human child, has not shown himself to the world so not protected by the constitution. Nor as those already murdered by an unnlawful criminal act, to late for them too. Well, going by you than the firing squad is the method proven to be painless & fast on that point. As far as the constitution It's orginal frame has become water logged, infested with beatles, mildew by expansionist, leaching into the fabric of the frame . In another word's it is a derailed train. What is happening today is exactly what our Founding Fathers feared. As for civic's unfortunately it is no longer taught by commie teacher's, unions, & Government Expansionist
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 14:40:03 GMT -6
How do you personally believe our constitution reads, about lesser pain or other? It says "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." That's taxation & fines, what about cold blooded murder? Define cruel & unusual punishments? Then for who?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 14:09:34 GMT -6
Ms Brown who attended the execution stated" You "don't know" what excruciating is' Excruciating is seeing your Dad lying in a pool of blood. Cold hard facts without the aid of drugs for her to live with for a lifetime. It is impossible" to know ".. We can agree that Ms Brown's pain is far worse. That doesn't mean every lesser pain is constitutional. How do you personally believe our constitution reads, about lesser pain or other?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 14:03:40 GMT -6
You're very persuasive. But how am I to compare your certainty with the agnosticism of an established professor of anesthesiology? I'm worried that he understands the situation better than you, even though you're a smart bear. Do you live in this world or not? Do you see how drug addicks feel no pain, do you see how those put under for surgery feel no pain, do you see how many people are on pain pills to relieve pain, & they are to relieve pain . I feel certain he felt no pain his body only was having spasms, twtching & he mentally was not aware. There was no intent to prolong or to torture. If you still believe he felt pain mentally than we should go to the firing squad method.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 10:34:56 GMT -6
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 2, 2015 10:16:13 GMT -6
No knowing whether or not he suffered under an overdose of hydromorphone? Ok. You win. It isn't possible to debate with someone who makes statements like that. It was David Waisel, the associate professor of anaesthesia in Boston quoted in Nils's article, who said that "it was impossible to “know for sure” whether an inmate on the gurney is in pain or not". I wasn't saying that. I was just clarifying what HE said. Right now I don't know which of you to believe. It would help me if you told me your qualifications in anesthesiology, so that I can compare them with Waisel's. We do know he was on an "overdose" to the extreme. Fact Ms Brown who attended the execution stated" You "don't know" what excruciating is' Excruciating is seeing your Dad lying in a pool of blood. Cold hard facts without the aid of drugs for her to live with for a lifetime. It is impossible" to know "..
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 1, 2015 20:08:17 GMT -6
The point is that there is no knowing whether or not he suffered, hence no knowing whether or not the procedure is constitutional. No knowing whether or not he suffered under an overdose of hydromorphone? Ok. You win. It isn't possible to debate with someone who makes statements like that. I find it hard to believe if your on an overdose of hydromorphone.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 1, 2015 20:03:31 GMT -6
Greg Davis was indicted in Collins County by a grand jury in 2010, tampering with Govermentmental records, though & a judge let him off. Not connected to the Routier case, sure gives a good insight though. Well, there was a lot of dirty politics around this whole case, that should mean something for this trial. Those are actual photo's of Darlie, do not look self inflicted to me, not shown to the jury as this article states.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 1, 2015 18:43:56 GMT -6
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Post by whitediamonds on Dec 28, 2014 22:55:08 GMT -6
And yet there are about 400 murders per year in Missouri. Whether or not the death penalty is cruel, it's certainly an unusual punishment. The only thing unusual about the DP is the decades before the execution is carried out. Heck, if you commited a crime that qualified you for DR" at say 40 yrs old, by the time execution day comes the convict will be so old he/she will taken to the gurney in a wheelchair. By then he will have no clue of why he is being executed, or where they are & gets a pardon.
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