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Post by lawrence on Apr 26, 2008 8:21:22 GMT -6
Point taken , but i think you understand now my stance on the DP. you say not normally but sometimes depending on the angle of the prosecution it could be. I understand the point of pre meditated but still for this the DP, it would cause me concern and doubts , its because of this doubt and mistrust of some the legal system and my personal religious beliefs why i cant support the DP. If it was proven without a shodow of doubt with unbias prosecution then maybe, just maybe i might be convinced, first though i want it proven that its a deterent? Im not going to argue with you today my friend, you are on fire and i dont want to get burnt
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Post by spur on Apr 26, 2008 17:19:39 GMT -6
Point taken , but i think you understand now my stance on the DP. you say not normally but sometimes depending on the angle of the prosecution it could be. I understand the point of pre meditated but still for this the DP, it would cause me concern and doubts , its because of this doubt and mistrust of some the legal system and my personal religious beliefs why i cant support the DP. If it was proven without a shodow of doubt with unbias prosecution then maybe, just maybe i might be convinced, first though i want it proven that its a deterent? Im not going to argue with you today my friend, you are on fire and i dont want to get burnt I feel ya Lawrence.... I am the same way... and until someone proves to me without a shadow of a doubt.... I still believe in Santy Clause
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Post by D.E.E. on Apr 26, 2008 22:10:26 GMT -6
Point taken , but i think you understand now my stance on the DP. you say not normally but sometimes depending on the angle of the prosecution it could be. I understand the point of pre meditated but still for this the DP, it would cause me concern and doubts , its because of this doubt and mistrust of some the legal system and my personal religious beliefs why i cant support the DP. If it was proven without a shodow of doubt with unbias prosecution then maybe, just maybe i might be convinced, first though i want it proven that its a deterent? Im not going to argue with you today my friend, you are on fire and i dont want to get burnt Even when it is not the norm it has to fall in to some other range than simple rage. It has to have some other element to it. It is never simple rage, that would not be a DP eligible murder. While I think all murders should be the law does not.
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Post by lawrence on Apr 27, 2008 14:23:02 GMT -6
im gutted, Santy Clause does not exist. My god, what shall i tell my daughter. Again DEE i understand your comment but you say three words that would cause me concern within the present law as it satand, " it has to" fall into something other then simple rage. I appreciate what you are trying to explain but this doesnt answer my question. Hypothetical situation. You at home asleep, some kids break into your house, you wake, you get your gun and shoot one dead out of fear, you dont know what they want. All of a sudden you find yourself in court charged with murder. The prosecution attorney is under pressure to convict, he's clever and persuades the jury your a callous killer. All of a sudden you guilty of nothing more then defending yourself, you now convicted of murder, not self defence. Do you think you or another in that position should die???. This could happen if the prosecution is a good lawyer and he needs to hit his target for convictions. Im not saying that any lawyer would do this, its a hypothetical example. We heard only a couple of weeks ago on a post that a lawyer sat on evidence that kept a guy on death row or in prison for 20 odd years, perhaps Matt might be able to remind us who that was. But if thats the case and forgetting santa clause my hypothetical situation could happen. Thats why i cant support the ultimate punishment for murder. IM sorry but LWOP is far more a better punishment.
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Post by Angelique on May 1, 2008 2:05:33 GMT -6
im gutted, Santy Clause does not exist. My god, what shall i tell my daughter. Again DEE i understand your comment but you say three words that would cause me concern within the present law as it satand, " it has to" fall into something other then simple rage. I appreciate what you are trying to explain but this doesnt answer my question. Hypothetical situation. You at home asleep, some kids break into your house, you wake, you get your gun and shoot one dead out of fear, you dont know what they want. All of a sudden you find yourself in court charged with murder. The prosecution attorney is under pressure to convict, he's clever and persuades the jury your a callous killer. All of a sudden you guilty of nothing more then defending yourself, you now convicted of murder, not self defence. Do you think you or another in that position should die???. This could happen if the prosecution is a good lawyer and he needs to hit his target for convictions. Im not saying that any lawyer would do this, its a hypothetical example. We heard only a couple of weeks ago on a post that a lawyer sat on evidence that kept a guy on death row or in prison for 20 odd years, perhaps Matt might be able to remind us who that was. But if thats the case and forgetting santa clause my hypothetical situation could happen. Thats why i cant support the ultimate punishment for murder. IM sorry but LWOP is far more a better punishment. Lawrence, it is interesting what you said here. However I would say it depends on where you live. For one, if a teenager climbs through my window at night, there is no way that I am going to wait and see or even ask what he wants. I will blow his head off. Here they break into homes while you sleep at night, come in and rape or kill you. So how exactly do you suggest you go about confronting this intruder. 95% of the time they have guns or some weapons with them. I certainly don't think there is enough time to go... Hey Sir, can you explain to me what you want in my house?.... Seconds makes the difference between life and death. Many times judges is quite capable of deciding what is the difference between life and death... most of them anyway.
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Post by Felix2 on May 1, 2008 2:20:13 GMT -6
im gutted, Santy Clause does not exist. My god, what shall i tell my daughter. Again DEE i understand your comment but you say three words that would cause me concern within the present law as it satand, " it has to" fall into something other then simple rage. I appreciate what you are trying to explain but this doesnt answer my question. Hypothetical situation. You at home asleep, some kids break into your house, you wake, you get your gun and shoot one dead out of fear, you dont know what they want. All of a sudden you find yourself in court charged with murder. The prosecution attorney is under pressure to convict, he's clever and persuades the jury your a callous killer. All of a sudden you guilty of nothing more then defending yourself, you now convicted of murder, not self defence. Do you think you or another in that position should die???. This could happen if the prosecution is a good lawyer and he needs to hit his target for convictions. Im not saying that any lawyer would do this, its a hypothetical example. We heard only a couple of weeks ago on a post that a lawyer sat on evidence that kept a guy on death row or in prison for 20 odd years, perhaps Matt might be able to remind us who that was. But if thats the case and forgetting santa clause my hypothetical situation could happen. Thats why i cant support the ultimate punishment for murder. IM sorry but LWOP is far more a better punishment. Lawrence, it is interesting what you said here. However I would say it depends on where you live. For one, if a teenager climbs through my window at night, there is no way that I am going to wait and see or even ask what he wants. I will blow his head off. Here they break into homes while you sleep at night, come in and rape or kill you. So how exactly do you suggest you go about confronting this intruder. 95% of the time they have guns or some weapons with them. I certainly don't think there is enough time to go... Hey Sir, can you explain to me what you want in my house?.... Seconds makes the difference between life and death. Many times judges is quite capable of deciding what is the difference between life and death... most of them anyway. Yep I agree, if I woke to find a stranger inside our house I'd hit first and ask questions afterwards. In my case I have a wife and three young children, taking a risk by asking if I was on my own is one thing, but if I did'nt strike hard quickly, and the person got the upperhand, then what protection is left for my family? I dotn own any intruder that sort of latitude, its far too risky, and to heck with the laws and courts, I'd face them without any problem, and if I was asked for justification I'd simply point out my family are still alive thenk you very much and fook off! The thing is in terms of risk, what you already know is that this person violates boundaries as evidenced by them being in your home in the first place, and past risk taking is the only tool we have for future predicting, hence I'd always assume they would transgress other more serious boundaries until its established without risk to myself and others that they would not. I'd prefer the individual to be unconscious during the process of gathering that information in these kinds of circumstances and tough if they end up dead..
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Post by Angelique on May 1, 2008 2:31:25 GMT -6
Felix, the funny thing is. The police men and women see the difference between life and death differently than that of judges. In SA if you are a man, you will have a lot of trouble when you shoot a guy in your house. If you are let us say 100kg and the intruder is 70kg, you will also need to explain to the judge why did you not try to wrestle the guy. It is rediculous if you think that they have guns. Men may also not shoot them once they start running, not in the garden even...you will go to jail. With women they bend the rules a little more. I can shoot at someone in my garden, if I feel threatened...but only if that person has been threatening me.
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Post by lawrence on May 1, 2008 2:33:48 GMT -6
I know its adifficult one and i understand the laws in the states and i think SA but still in the UK, you cant and are in a world of crap if you do. the law will probably change if (i hope) that a Tory government gets in power at the next general election. But i have a distrust of the legal system as it is, there are too many possible problems that could have someone executed. Plus my own personal believes and religious beliefs are against it. Yet, i wouldnt have a problem with the execution of Child murderers and rapists. I cant expalin my thinking on this as im not that articulate to try to explain it in a way that people wopuld understand.
There will need to be a radical overhaul of the law as it stands for to support the dp, a serious overhaul. Also a more humane way of the execution process too. All the other ways are inhumane and thats disturbing for me. Yes i understand the views of others who say what about the inhumane way they treated their victims. But two wrongs dont make a right.
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Post by Felix2 on May 1, 2008 2:45:19 GMT -6
Felix, the funny thing is. The police men and women see the difference between life and death differently than that of judges. In SA if you are a man, you will have a lot of trouble when you shoot a guy in your house. If you are let us say 100kg and the intruder is 70kg, you will also need to explain to the judge why did you not try to wrestle the guy. It is rediculous if you think that they have guns. Men may also not shoot them once they start running, not in the garden even...you will go to jail. With women they bend the rules a little more. I can shoot at someone in my garden, if I feel threatened...but only if that person has been threatening me. I do agree that if the person is running lethal force should be hard to justify, but otherwise if I encounterede someone uninvited INSIDE my house, my starting point is the assumtion they mean me (us) harm, and I'd only go about gathering evidence to the contrary when they are unconscious or seriously disabled or worse. I'd not think twice. It happened to me in London in a flat I shared with my now wife. In our case we returned and disturbed a burglar but because of the layout he was trapped. I was'nt willing to stand back and just let him run past partly because I did'nt know what he might have on him belong to us. I remember at the police station explaining that he for soem unknown reason he kept repeatedly headbutting my feet with his face and this accounted for his appearence, and his two broken fingers. Police knew it was BS but that was my story. Then they asked if I was aware I could be prosecuted for using undue force? When I replied that I would look forward to it I think the police were relieved when the "victim" decided not to pursue a complaint and dodged the stand off with me in that way. I honestly did'nt give a fook what the law did, Karen and I were safe, and that was all that counted. What did amuse me was the Inspector asked me if given the same situation again what would I do, and the exasperation on his face when I assured him I'd do nothing differently. Oh, and by the way, the burglar was on disability benefit for agorophobia!!!!!! I believe he has put in for PTSD nowadays! LOL ;D
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Post by D.E.E. on May 1, 2008 9:10:18 GMT -6
im gutted, Santy Clause does not exist. My god, what shall i tell my daughter. Again DEE i understand your comment but you say three words that would cause me concern within the present law as it satand, " it has to" fall into something other then simple rage. I appreciate what you are trying to explain but this doesnt answer my question. Hypothetical situation. You at home asleep, some kids break into your house, you wake, you get your gun and shoot one dead out of fear, you dont know what they want. All of a sudden you find yourself in court charged with murder. The prosecution attorney is under pressure to convict, he's clever and persuades the jury your a callous killer. All of a sudden you guilty of nothing more then defending yourself, you now convicted of murder, not self defence. Do you think you or another in that position should die???. This could happen if the prosecution is a good lawyer and he needs to hit his target for convictions. Im not saying that any lawyer would do this, its a hypothetical example. We heard only a couple of weeks ago on a post that a lawyer sat on evidence that kept a guy on death row or in prison for 20 odd years, perhaps Matt might be able to remind us who that was. But if thats the case and forgetting santa clause my hypothetical situation could happen. Thats why i cant support the ultimate punishment for murder. IM sorry but LWOP is far more a better punishment. You question is nonsense, I live in Texas. If they broke in to my home and I killed one, two or all three, I would not be charged at all. Texas law is clear on this matter. The problem you have is you do not know the laws in the US yet want to make judgement on them. Tell me what do you do to someone who has LWOP and murders again? Give him another LWOP?
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Post by lawrence on May 2, 2008 1:26:45 GMT -6
Christ DEE, no one in the world can understand the law in the states, Do you??? if you have money your ok, if not maybe and if poor your buggered, its the same everywhere. You have different laws in different states, some with the DP and some without, its confusing to all. Do you really understand your laws. I cant. I have always said that its extreme to shoot someone for breaking into your house ,is it legal in all states? Ive also said that i understand soemone doing it, For me i would have to think twice, if my family were threatened then yes i would what force was required but if you do here your in a world of crap. perhaps we have a different perspective on the rights to life of people. I was not judging your laws DEE, i was making a comment after reading some from others and from what ive read elsewhere. Christ i dont even understand our laws so im sure as hell not going to try to understand yours. The point remains that laws are not safe even with a Jury but i have also said that this system is still the best. Dee, are you suggesting that i cant make a comment or give an opinion about something that i feel needs to be made?? That would surpise me if you did.
If someone kills another con whilst incarcerated etc , the prison didnt do its job in its duty of care, like ive said before if a hardened scummer kills another scummer, i dont care really. I care when the state does it. Thats two different things.
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Post by D.E.E. on May 5, 2008 20:56:00 GMT -6
Christ DEE, no one in the world can understand the law in the states, Do you??? if you have money your ok, if not maybe and if poor your buggered, its the same everywhere. You have different laws in different states, some with the DP and some without, its confusing to all. Do you really understand your laws. I cant. I have always said that its extreme to shoot someone for breaking into your house ,is it legal in all states? Ive also said that i understand soemone doing it, For me i would have to think twice, if my family were threatened then yes i would what force was required but if you do here your in a world of crap. perhaps we have a different perspective on the rights to life of people. I was not judging your laws DEE, i was making a comment after reading some from others and from what ive read elsewhere. Christ i dont even understand our laws so im sure as hell not going to try to understand yours. The point remains that laws are not safe even with a Jury but i have also said that this system is still the best. Dee, are you suggesting that i cant make a comment or give an opinion about something that i feel needs to be made?? That would surpise me if you did. If someone kills another con whilst incarcerated etc , the prison didnt do its job in its duty of care, like ive said before if a hardened scummer kills another scummer, i dont care really. I care when the state does it. Thats two different things. I understand the laws of Texas and they are mostly good laws. I can shoot someone who breaks in to my house and I do not have to worry about being charged with murder. My story will be checked out but if they broke in to my house no problem. The laws is clear and very safe (unless you are a criminal) I do not have to worry about a jury as I would not face one. I am not saying that you should not have an opinion or even make a comment about something but you should know something about what you are talking about. I would not make comments about the murder laws in the UK because I know nothing about them. If a person can break in to your home and you can not stop them by any means necessary that is your look out and not mine. Glad I live in Texas. You did not answer the question of what to do to someone who has LWOP and kills again. You made a comment that the state is not doing its job, again you show your ignorance of prisons with that statement. That is not an answer by the way it is a cop out.
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Post by lawrence on May 6, 2008 1:21:00 GMT -6
We agree on one point DEE, no one knows the law properly, i give way on the point of lethal force, although i find it extreme i would think twice if my family was threatened. As for material things, well thats a different matter, Like Felix said you can be charged here for using undue force. Hopefully when the Tories get back into power then the law will be made clearer. I have not disagreed with your laws, they are designed for your culture not ours, you guys live with the gun, we do not so its hard to understand the somewhat hardened views to taking a life. Like i said maybe its because we have a different perspective on life here.
I answered the question perfectly. Why is it a cop out ? its clear DEE, if you are incarcerated in a state prison or over here and as a murderer you decide to take someone out whilst inside, hey ho, I dont give a crap, there inside and the lose of someone like a murderer or peadophile is of no concern to me.
In plain English then. Wjilst serving LWOP, they are inside and i dont care if they kill each other. If they do and can then the prison isnt doing its duty of care. Hows that? that is an answer and not a cope out. there inside and not outside, who cares. i dont.
The hardest arithmetic to Master DEE is that which enables us to count our blessings. Ignorance is not putting one and one together and making two my friend, making 3 out of that equation is a different question and requires a different answer. Its black and white. There inside liking each other rather then outside killing us.
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Post by lawrence on May 6, 2008 1:34:32 GMT -6
DEE, you read Stormy's post on the DNA free TX inmate. Its appears your laws my friend are not that good after all. naughty naughty prosecution wade. What a *jerk*. Not perhaps you can understand why i dont want or will accept the DP as a punishment. These guys were innocent and yet they spent years in jail for crimes they didnt commit. It appears i was right. If your rich your ok, if no, maybe, if poor your buggered. Great laws you have DEE. you must be very proud to know that such state prosecutors are doing such a sterling job putting innocent people in jail instead of those who should be there. Mike C has said it all. These cases should all be looked into and quickly.
If you had executed these men then what is your opinion on the the criminal activity of this Wade bloke, because criminal is what he did. Should he be now prosecuted if still alive???. What a piece of Shyte that man is.
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Post by Felix2 on May 6, 2008 2:14:46 GMT -6
We agree on one point DEE, no one knows the law properly, i give way on the point of lethal force, although i find it extreme i would think twice if my family was threatened. As for material things, well thats a different matter, Like Felix said you can be charged here for using undue force. Hopefully when the Tories get back into power then the law will be made clearer. I have not disagreed with your laws, they are designed for your culture not ours, you guys live with the gun, we do not so its hard to understand the somewhat hardened views to taking a life. Like i said maybe its because we have a different perspective on life here. I answered the question perfectly. Why is it a cop out ? its clear DEE, if you are incarcerated in a state prison or over here and as a murderer you decide to take someone out whilst inside, hey ho, I dont give a crap, there inside and the lose of someone like a murderer or peadophile is of no concern to me. In plain English then. Wjilst serving LWOP, they are inside and i dont care if they kill each other. If they do and can then the prison isnt doing its duty of care. Hows that? that is an answer and not a cope out. there inside and not outside, who cares. i dont. The hardest arithmetic to Master DEE is that which enables us to count our blessings. Ignorance is not putting one and one together and making two my friend, making 3 out of that equation is a different question and requires a different answer. Its black and white. There inside liking each other rather then outside killing us. Hey lawrence, I had a few beers with an old friend friday night and he was telling me his wife gives him a row every time he comes back late from the pub, he said, as I approach the house I cut the car engine, let it coast right into the garage, sneak uop to bed like a mouse but no matter how quietly i do it she wakes up with a start shouting "where the h... have you been til this time"? I told him he was doing it all wrong, and suggersted he adopt my approach. I come home with tyres screeching, pissed as a fart, come into the house banging doors, singing away to myself. Then I go up to bed singing as I undress, jump into bed, smack he on the butt and ask "do you by any chance feel like giving me a BJ darling" ? I assured him that in 16 years of our married life she has always remained fast asleep despite the noise of my arrival!
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Post by lawrence on May 6, 2008 4:18:20 GMT -6
Felix, excellent, im came home one night, sneaked up stairs and saw the misses in bed so i crept up under the sheets and went down on her given her some until she came screaming like a banshee, i then felt pretty good and went to the shower where i saw my misses and she said be quiet you will wake your mother shes in our bed. EEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew
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Post by D.E.E. on May 6, 2008 8:55:18 GMT -6
We agree on one point DEE, no one knows the law properly, i give way on the point of lethal force, although i find it extreme i would think twice if my family was threatened. As for material things, well thats a different matter, Like Felix said you can be charged here for using undue force. Hopefully when the Tories get back into power then the law will be made clearer. I have not disagreed with your laws, they are designed for your culture not ours, you guys live with the gun, we do not so its hard to understand the somewhat hardened views to taking a life. Like i said maybe its because we have a different perspective on life here. I answered the question perfectly. Why is it a cop out ? its clear DEE, if you are incarcerated in a state prison or over here and as a murderer you decide to take someone out whilst inside, hey ho, I dont give a crap, there inside and the lose of someone like a murderer or peadophile is of no concern to me. In plain English then. Wjilst serving LWOP, they are inside and i dont care if they kill each other. If they do and can then the prison isnt doing its duty of care. Hows that? that is an answer and not a cope out. there inside and not outside, who cares. i dont. The hardest arithmetic to Master DEE is that which enables us to count our blessings. Ignorance is not putting one and one together and making two my friend, making 3 out of that equation is a different question and requires a different answer. Its black and white. There inside liking each other rather then outside killing us. It is a cop out because the person they kill may be a guard, or they may be some one who is in for something other than murder. It is still a murder and deserves to be seen as such or are you saying that people in side prison do not count as human? That includes the CO's of course that you are ignoring as non-human and people who do not count, it also includes those that they call hits on from inside prison who live on the outside. As I said you have no comprehension of what a prison is like and while it is easy to lay the entire blame on the prison it is also the lazy way and incorrect. You can not stop someone from killing if they want to at least not and keep prisons even close to what the law demands. See you need to get a grip on prison life and prison arithmetic, you do not count and they do, that is what a prisoner understands. If they think you need to die they will order a hit on you and your entire family and it does not matter if you are on the inside or outside, it does not matter if you are a criminal, a CO, a witness, or who you are you do not count. That is prison arithmetic. Now you are still avoiding the question what if they kill again while in prison and serving LWOP? This may or may not be a convict they kill or cause to be killed. It could be a CO, a Chaplin, a Doctor, a Nurse, a Volunteer, or almost any one who crosses them.
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