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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 4:50:14 GMT -6
Time for a reality check. If your nation ends up being governed by a dictator in the spirit of Pol Pot, Hitler or Khmer Rouge then your constitution will be irrelevant. It is merely a piece of paper. Its not going to protect you from anything at all. you obviously no nothing about this nation. the FACT is that it can NEVER end up being governed by a dicatator in the spirit of pol pot, hitler, etc, because the constitution prevents it Just like the German Constitution protected germany from getting someone like Hitler.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 5:42:36 GMT -6
You'll never understand, because you're not an American, it's as simple as that It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 17, 2013 7:09:21 GMT -6
You'll never understand, because you're not an American, it's as simple as that It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind. I deeply hope you are incorrect in your assessment, but I fear you may be correct about our current situaton.
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Post by Californian on Feb 17, 2013 7:36:32 GMT -6
[
I wore pistol and rifle expert badges on my uniform in the Navy.
And yet again you run up against the Second Amendment. What part of "shall not be infringed" eludes you?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 10:33:55 GMT -6
It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind. I deeply hope you are incorrect in your assessment, but I fear you may be correct about our current situaton. One classic example is the regional differences in covers for Time Magazines. You get more soft pieces then we do. Also, one observation is when I watch your news shows I cannot believe the number of lifestyle pieces they have.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 10:35:25 GMT -6
[ I wore pistol and rifle expert badges on my uniform in the Navy. And yet again you run up against the Second Amendment. What part of "shall not be infringed" eludes you? You ban felons from owning a weapon don't you. You could call their second amendment rights being infringed upon.
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Post by Californian on Feb 17, 2013 11:10:22 GMT -6
You ban felons from owning a weapon don't you. You could call their second amendment rights being infringed upon. Denial of firearms ownership for convicted felons is not "infringement," it's "revocation." It's a punishment, ust like the DP.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 17, 2013 13:54:45 GMT -6
Felons also lose the right to vote.
Sent from my LS670 using proboards
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Post by Kay on Feb 17, 2013 16:14:29 GMT -6
You'll never understand, because you're not an American, it's as simple as that It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind. Your ignorance aside, of course, we are an all volunteer military, whose citizens are very unlikely to attack their brethen.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 17, 2013 18:06:55 GMT -6
Thanks for straightening that out for me. Sent from my LS670 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 19:22:29 GMT -6
Felons also lose the right to vote. Sent from my LS670 using proboards I have always wondered why convicted felons are banned from voting even after serving their sentences in the states.
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Post by Californian on Feb 17, 2013 20:11:00 GMT -6
Felons also lose the right to vote. Sent from my LS670 using proboards I have always wondered why convicted felons are banned from voting even after serving their sentences in the states. Because we don't allow it. Questions?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 23:00:14 GMT -6
It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind. Your ignorance aside, of course, we are an all volunteer military, whose citizens are very unlikely to attack their brethen. Utter rubbish. All your government has to do is convince you to hate a certain segment of your population and then you won't have an issue with your army destroying that segment of the population.
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Post by Kay on Feb 17, 2013 23:17:29 GMT -6
Your ignorance aside, of course, we are an all volunteer military, whose citizens are very unlikely to attack their brethen. Utter rubbish. All your government has to do is convince you to hate a certain segment of your population and then you won't have an issue with your army destroying that segment of the population. Obviously, you don't have a very high opinion of Americans, that's fine, you're not lucky enough to be one
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 2:26:54 GMT -6
Utter rubbish. All your government has to do is convince you to hate a certain segment of your population and then you won't have an issue with your army destroying that segment of the population. Obviously, you don't have a very high opinion of Americans, that's fine, you're not lucky enough to be one No, just a more realistic view.
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Post by Kay on Feb 18, 2013 3:20:37 GMT -6
Obviously, you don't have a very high opinion of Americans, that's fine, you're not lucky enough to be one No, just a more realistic view. How can you have a more realistic view than I do, I live in this country and am the parent of a United States Marine! Your "more realistic view" is simply biased by your prejudices.
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Post by Woody on Feb 18, 2013 5:04:24 GMT -6
Your ignorance aside, of course, we are an all volunteer military, whose citizens are very unlikely to attack their brethen. [/quote] I believe, the opposite is true. Voluntary soldiers are paid professionals, many of them not equipped with the gift of outstanding intelligence, who don't care.
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Post by Californian on Feb 18, 2013 7:07:48 GMT -6
I believe, the opposite is true. Voluntary soldiers are paid professionals, many of them not equipped with the gift of outstanding intelligence, who don't care. And yet, our military managed to bomb your country to rubble, invade, and hang the various generals, doctors, and SS thugs who pissed us off. How was that possible, scion of Nazis?
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Post by Woody on Feb 18, 2013 10:39:37 GMT -6
I believe, the opposite is true. Voluntary soldiers are paid professionals, many of them not equipped with the gift of outstanding intelligence, who don't care. And yet, our military managed to bomb your country to rubble, invade, and hang the various generals, doctors, and SS thugs who pissed us off. How was that possible, scion of Nazis? YAWN! But finally I see through your plan. First you drove my grandfathers Adolf and Hermann into suicide and now you try to bore me to death with your tedious bushwa.
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Post by Californian on Feb 18, 2013 11:33:18 GMT -6
First you drove my grandfathers Adolf and Hermann into suicide and now you try to bore me to death with your tedious bushwa. You'll only be lucky enough to die of boredom if you don't *deleted* us off again.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 18, 2013 15:11:56 GMT -6
No, just a more realistic view. How can you have a more realistic view than I do, I live in this country and am the parent of a United States Marine! Your "more realistic view" is simply biased by your prejudices. Semper Fi! Attachments:
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Post by Kay on Feb 18, 2013 16:33:32 GMT -6
How can you have a more realistic view than I do, I live in this country and am the parent of a United States Marine! Your "more realistic view" is simply biased by your prejudices. Semper Fi! Semper Fi! Joe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 1:50:47 GMT -6
No, just a more realistic view. How can you have a more realistic view than I do, I live in this country and am the parent of a United States Marine! Your "more realistic view" is simply biased by your prejudices. Maybe you are biased. You haven't provided any rational argument for the liberal gun laws your nation has based on the today's circumstances. Maybe you grew up in a culture where you were taught that American is the most best and free nation in the world. Maybe you haven't realised that this is probably no longer true.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 1:53:08 GMT -6
I believe, the opposite is true. Voluntary soldiers are paid professionals, many of them not equipped with the gift of outstanding intelligence, who don't care. And yet, our military managed to bomb your country to rubble, invade, and hang the various generals, doctors, and SS thugs who pissed us off. How was that possible, scion of Nazis? Yeah but you only turned up after you were dragged into the war. Previously to that you were stubbornly neutral. (We are not saying the world didn't appreciate your efforts).
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Post by starbux on Feb 19, 2013 3:58:11 GMT -6
We won the war against the British and gained independence, a fight against the government. Who says we can't do it again well for instance the main weapons back then were ball muskets and canons. These were items that the colonials had access to. Today our miltary has the following that average citizen has zero access to to include but not limited to F-16s, F-15's F-18's, F-22's, F-35's. B-52 bombers, B-1 Bombers. MQ-1 UAV's MQ-9 UAV's, Apache gunship helicopters Other gunship helicopters. Highly trained special operations personnel. Strategic cruise missiles. An armada of heavily armed ships. M-1 Abram tanks. We have directed energy weapons and the capability to disrupt all communication networks. I left out our friends, the arsenal of nuclear weapons. think even the most heavily armed, beer drinking hicks with there suped up pickup trucks will be no match for one our drones with a Hellfire missile. It is already proven that only 19% of our country is even physically fit to serve in the military. Just on stamina alone an average troop will be able to out match some fat beer gut clown. On practical note. Do you think all those "hippy liberals," in major metro cities are going to take up arms that they don't even own or care shoot, in places like San Fran, LA, Seattle, NY city. Yeah they have armed thugs, but I doubt they will join the fight. They would use an insurrection as an opportunity to rob a liqueur store, and burglarize a house. The scenario you suggest would put the country into complete chaos. It would be disorganized but predictable with our intelligence capability. We will know your location, but you will never know ours. You could goto gorilla warfare tactics like the Afgahns, but you will be found and destroyed. You will always ask your self is there a high altitude armed recon drone above you turning his laser on pointing at you about to pickle off a missile. You will never see it coming before you know it the inserection will be over and the government will win. All the beer drinking right wing hicks in this country with all there arsenal will be no match. Of course not many in our military will follow illegal order issued by the president.
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Post by starbux on Feb 19, 2013 4:11:12 GMT -6
You'll never understand, because you're not an American, it's as simple as that It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind. We have whats called checks and balances in our government. Our president does not have authority to declare war. It is our congress that does that. Our president only has the authority to start a military action for 60 days. After that he has congressional approval to support monetarily the conflict beyond that. If the president were to give an order to overtake the congress, no general in his right mind will obey that, it will be an illegal order. They will violating their oath. So you would have convince the entire armed forces to disregard their oath to the constitution.
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Post by starbux on Feb 19, 2013 4:19:29 GMT -6
You ban felons from owning a weapon don't you. You could call their second amendment rights being infringed upon. Denial of firearms ownership for convicted felons is not "infringement," it's "revocation." It's a punishment, ust like the DP. Felons forfeit allot fundamental rights. They are restricted also in voting rights. Once you convicted as a felon you are considered a lessor of a citizen. The main rights felons have are mainly criminal rights for future prosecution. They are allowed to assemble. But in some cases freedom of movement is restricted such as child molesters, cannot goto places that are occupied by children such as playgrounds, and schools.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 4:27:09 GMT -6
It is ignorance to suggest an armed bunch of citizens can take on a professional army, that is a far more professional army then existed 200 years ago, who have more sophisticated killing weapons. Americans are like Olympians who won gold 20 years ago or the guy who peaked in high school. You talk about your great history, but people overseas are aware of your history, your work ethic and your freedoms. They see what made the USA such a great country and seek to emulate that. However Americans now think that success is a birthright, and don't realise the rest of the world has caught up, and will leave them behind. We have whats called checks and balances in our government. Our president does not have authority to declare war. It is our congress that does that. Our president only has the authority to start a military action for 60 days. After that he has congressional approval to support monetarily the conflict beyond that. If the president were to give an order to overtake the congress, no general in his right mind will obey that, it will be an illegal order. They will violating their oath. So you would have convince the entire armed forces to disregard their oath to the constitution. Yes, but you still ended up in Vietnam,
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Post by starbux on Feb 19, 2013 4:51:18 GMT -6
Since we are throwing creds out. I am a Captain in the Air Force reserves, doing crash investigations of our UAV fleet ie Drones. I flew them for 4 years in Nevada, and KC-135 Tankers before that. Before getting out of 10 years of AD, I closed our UAV launch ops at Balad. I was in charge of our squadron armory, that included 10 M-4's 5 M-16's and 12 M-9's. It was the worst job ever to have the responsibility of being around them. After Iraq I could care less if I ever own said weapons.
Having said that I think if the average american were required to account for their weapons and their ammo like the military and be requires to prove competency, the appeal of owning them would go away. I am not against the 2nd amendment, but on a practical note I think it is highly naive to think that you are stocking up to overthrow government. I think people should have reasonable weapons for personal protection and for those who choose, sport shooting. I fail to see the need for the average citizen, to own an M-4/M-16 or its civilian cousin the AR-15.
Even in the armed forces you are not allowed to have a personal weapon on base, unless it is stored at the armory. You must declare it when entering the gate and go straight to the armory. If you fail to do so you will be arrested by the gate guards, waiting to be released by your commanding officer. You will be expecting to get an Article 15 afterwords. For those non-mil Article 15 is commander's discretionary non judicial punishment, it is a huge black mark on your record.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 6:01:37 GMT -6
Starbux,
Excellent post.
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