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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2010 16:58:40 GMT -6
David Berkowitz years ago came to the saving grace of Christ. He has chosen not to seek parole and will remain behind bars for the rest of his life. He is now a prison minister.
Billy Moore was on death row but he also came to the saving grace of Christ. He won the forgiveness of the victims family and his sentenced was reduced to life. But then later, he was released from prison altogether. He is now the pastor of a pentecostal church in Atlanta.
Do you being christian, believe that these men should've been sentenced to death? Would you believe that it is unjust for them to have their lives spared despite the fact that God is now using them for His purpose?
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Post by Moonbeam on Mar 12, 2010 17:22:30 GMT -6
Of course it is unjust for them to have their lives spared just because now they "claim" to have found god. Where was their god when they committed heinous crimes, why has he now chosen to use them for his purpose? I'm sure their victims would be very reassured to know that they are now ministers.
I wonder how the victims lives might have played out if they had the chance.
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Post by Californian on Mar 12, 2010 21:48:18 GMT -6
David Berkowitz years ago came to the saving grace of Christ. Great. Jesus can forgive him if he likes. You ain't Jesus. Like he'd get parole?  They should have both been executed. Jesus might show them mercy. I wouldn't.  |
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Post by Grey on Mar 12, 2010 22:01:21 GMT -6
David Berkowitz years ago came to the saving grace of Christ. He has chosen not to seek parole and will remain behind bars for the rest of his life. He is now a prison minister. Billy Moore was on death row but he also came to the saving grace of Christ. He won the forgiveness of the victims family and his sentenced was reduced to life. But then later, he was released from prison altogether. He is now the pastor of a pentecostal church in Atlanta. Do you being christian, believe that these men should've been sentenced to death? Would you believe that it is unjust for them to have their lives spared despite the fact that God is now using them for His purpose? so what? they find god and all of a sudden they are good people? Might as well not go to trial with any crime if they can use the defense " I found god" to get sympathy for a crime. Finding god or not finding god is and should be irrelavent. They are not being sentenced for being religious or lack of. and what exactly is god's purpose? My point: if an murderer finds god he should still be executed, and if its a non-dp state he should serve LWOP. Also, if god can be so forgiving and allow a murderer into heaven, I'd rather go to hell. |
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Post by halflife1052 on Mar 12, 2010 22:11:45 GMT -6
We are merely advocating expediting their in person, up close and personal, meeting with their god.  Seriously though, if you are willing to take someone's life to protect your own I have a question for you. Wouldn't the difference between you and the State really come down to a function of time. You defend yourself, the state defends us all by taking a life. You make your decision in a few tenths of a second while the state gets to mull the problem over. Are you saying that if you had time to think about it, you wouldn't point your weapon center mass and shoot to wound? You have already thought this out if you are saying "except in self defense". Edited to add : I mashed two of your threads together in my head. Above really belongs in the other thread. These men took the life of at least two victims. Those victims had loved ones. I know from the experience of watching my wife die just how much it hurts when a faceless monster takes them away. These men have a face and a name. I put to you that they should be treated like the disease that they are and eradicated from the face of the earth. Let them and their higher power hash out the rest of the details. |
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Post by Donnie on Mar 12, 2010 22:41:23 GMT -6
David Berkowitz years ago came to the saving grace of Christ. He has chosen not to seek parole and will remain behind bars for the rest of his life. He is now a prison minister. Billy Moore was on death row but he also came to the saving grace of Christ. He won the forgiveness of the victims family and his sentenced was reduced to life. But then later, he was released from prison altogether. He is now the pastor of a pentecostal church in Atlanta. Do you being christian, believe that these men should've been sentenced to death? Would you believe that it is unjust for them to have their lives spared despite the fact that God is now using them for His purpose? Yes and yes. God wishes man to be just. But if man is unjust, God may use the faults of man to God's advantage. |
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Mar 13, 2010 2:29:48 GMT -6
Peter Sutcliffe believed he was doing Gods work  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 6:48:49 GMT -6
Jim Jones and Jim Bakker were "pastors" too. What else you got?
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Post by Tracy on Mar 13, 2010 7:20:38 GMT -6
And how many people did david berkowitz kill? Who cares what he has "become" thats all irrelevant, he is forever nothing more than a murderer.
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Post by D.E.E. on Mar 13, 2010 8:51:43 GMT -6
You just have to love prison converts, they get of drugs on on to Jesus. On addiaction for another and they have been known to lie about the both of them.
I do not care if it is indeed a true conversion or not, the crime was done on earth against man, and they have been tried, sentenced and should be executed. If they are for real in their conversion then God will know his own and keep them if not then all their scams will come out and he will deal with them as he sees fit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 9:47:04 GMT -6
Amazing how monsters come over all religious after being jailed. The latest is Steven Barker, who tortured poor Baby P to death. He's "found God" in his cell. So did Moors murderer Myra Hindley. And so has Phillip Garrido, who kidnapped Jaycee Lee Dugard. The object, of course, is to fool prison staff and soppy parole boards. The only time you used to find murderers on their knees was the night before the morning on which they were truly about to meet their Maker.
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Post by ltdc on Mar 13, 2010 14:10:39 GMT -6
"found God" name droppers  ya ever wonder what God thinks of these people who claim they know him?? |
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Mar 13, 2010 15:11:03 GMT -6
In an alternate universe Hitler is arrested before suicide and sentenced to Life instead of hanging. In 1955 he becomes a priest in jail and begs us to forgive his sins. He forgiven now?  |
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Post by Matt on Mar 13, 2010 15:37:25 GMT -6
ya ever wonder what God thinks of these people who claim they know him?? |
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Mar 13, 2010 16:23:11 GMT -6
David Berkowitz years ago came to the saving grace of Christ. He has chosen not to seek parole and will remain behind bars for the rest of his life. He is now a prison minister. Billy Moore was on death row but he also came to the saving grace of Christ. He won the forgiveness of the victims family and his sentenced was reduced to life. But then later, he was released from prison altogether. He is now the pastor of a pentecostal church in Atlanta. Do you being christian, believe that these men should've been sentenced to death? Would you believe that it is unjust for them to have their lives spared despite the fact that God is now using them for His purpose? It's pretty creepy that you think christians merit special treatment over nonchristians. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 16:55:29 GMT -6
David Berkowitz years ago came to the saving grace of Christ. He has chosen not to seek parole and will remain behind bars for the rest of his life. He is now a prison minister. Billy Moore was on death row but he also came to the saving grace of Christ. He won the forgiveness of the victims family and his sentenced was reduced to life. But then later, he was released from prison altogether. He is now the pastor of a pentecostal church in Atlanta. Do you being christian, believe that these men should've been sentenced to death? Would you believe that it is unjust for them to have their lives spared despite the fact that God is now using them for His purpose? It's pretty creepy that you think christians merit special treatment over nonchristians. Since I don't believe in capital punishment at all, then no I do not think christians merit special treatment over nonchristian. The responses posted here have really opened my eyes about the pro death penalty stance and have strengthened my position as an anti. |
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Post by ltdc on Mar 13, 2010 17:03:49 GMT -6
It's pretty creepy that you think christians merit special treatment over nonchristians. The responses posted here have really opened my eyes about the pro death penalty stance and have strengthened my position as an anti. in what way? you mean the fact that forgiveness, while a virtue, is not a free pass from judgement, punishment, and justice? I'm pretty sure both Christ and God suscribe to that concept. the thief on the cross comes to mind |
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Post by ltdc on Mar 13, 2010 17:07:23 GMT -6
It's pretty creepy that you think christians merit special treatment over nonchristians. have strengthened my position as an anti. were you waivering some when you came here? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 17:13:31 GMT -6
The responses posted here have really opened my eyes about the pro death penalty stance and have strengthened my position as an anti. in what way? you mean the fact that forgiveness, while a virtue, is not a free pass from judgement, punishment, and justice? I'm pretty sure both Christ and God suscribe to that concept. the thief on the cross comes to mind The fact that pros would sacrifice all the good that comes from a rehabilitated murderer just to appease their thirst for revenge. As for your comment about Christ and the thief on the cross. Christ could not save the life of the thief on the cross because to do so would be breaking the law of the land which is a sin and Christ was sinless. That does not mean we have to support capital punishment. As much as I oppose it I'm not going to sabotage an execution because that would be sin. Breaking the law of the land. Opposing capital punishment on the other hand is not illegal, and is not sin. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 17:15:13 GMT -6
have strengthened my position as an anti. were you waivering some when you came here? No not waivering. Just becoming better equipped to defend the anti position. |
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Post by ltdc on Mar 13, 2010 17:39:56 GMT -6
in what way? you mean the fact that forgiveness, while a virtue, is not a free pass from judgement, punishment, and justice? I'm pretty sure both Christ and God suscribe to that concept. the thief on the cross comes to mind The fact that pros would sacrifice all the good that comes from a rehabilitated murderer just to appease their thirst for revenge. we don't sacrifice all the "good", he does. you talk of the law of the land, that law comes with a rescribed punishment. we shouldn't cheat that. |
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Katyusha
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Post by Katyusha on Mar 13, 2010 18:16:14 GMT -6
They should have both been executed. Jesus might show them mercy. I wouldn't. I think it was Mahatma Gandhi who said: I like Christ.I don't like you christians.You are so unlike him. ;D Thank  G-d I'm an agnostic. But no,seriously,how can I christian wish for s.o death or be even cheerful about it? Quite an astonishing mystery to me. |
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Post by Donnie on Mar 13, 2010 19:44:07 GMT -6
The fact that pros would sacrifice all the good that comes from a rehabilitated murderer just to appease their thirst for revenge. That is not a fact, it is an unChristian personal attack. Am I surprised? As for the supposed good that can come from a rehabilitated murderer, there is none, all good comes from God. Even a half-baked Christian ought to know that. All of our rightousness is as filthy rags. There are thousands of people available who could take the place of your favored murderers. Perhaps even their victims might have contributed more. |
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Mar 13, 2010 20:27:52 GMT -6
It's pretty creepy that you think christians merit special treatment over nonchristians. Since I don't believe in capital punishment at all, then no I do not think christians merit special treatment over nonchristian. The responses posted here have really opened my eyes about the pro death penalty stance and have strengthened my position as an anti. I got bad news for you - you're ineffective in arguing the anti position. Dare I say, you're akin to a literate olivebranch. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 21:19:33 GMT -6
The fact that pros would sacrifice all the good that comes from a rehabilitated murderer just to appease their thirst for revenge. That is not a fact, it is an unChristian personal attack. Am I surprised? As for the supposed good that can come from a rehabilitated murderer, there is none, all good comes from God. Even a half-baked Christian ought to know that. All of our rightousness is as filthy rags. There are thousands of people available who could take the place of your favored murderers. Perhaps even their victims might have contributed more. Of course I know that. It is a good thing that we did not execute David Berkowitz and Billy Moore because God is now using them for His purpose. |
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Post by Donnie on Mar 13, 2010 21:33:24 GMT -6
The fact that pros would sacrifice all the good that comes from a rehabilitated murderer just to appease their thirst for revenge. Supporting the death penalty would be a poor way to address a thirst for revenge. Supporting the death penalty is in agreement with God's sense of justice tempered with mercy. Justice is fair and equal treatment imposed on all parties involved in a transaction. The likelihood of justice is improved by establishing rules of just treatment in advance of transactions and having a forum for determining what the involved parties actually did. The likelihood of an appropriate result is further enhanced by using previously uninvolved decision makers. Revenge, on the other hand, is action by an individual based on his personal evaluation of the transaction. Often that evaluation is shortened by a desire for prompt action. Thus, while revenge may have the same result as the pursuit of justice and may be just, it is not the same as justice. In many cases revenge may be more harsh than the social pursuit of justice. Attempts to accomplish revenge may also result in additional unjust acts due to errors in findings of fact or in the degree of harm imposed. In the case of the pleasant executions that are administered for murder, justice is not achieved and revenge is not even approached. Many extreme examples of this outcome are available. Some easily accessed examples are the Alday family murders, the murders of Heather Muller and her friends, the murders of Dawn McCreery and Wendy Ofreedo, the Utah Hi Fi Shop murders, the murders discussed in Dead Man Walking , the murder of Anita Cobby and the murder of Michelle Thompson. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2010 21:34:52 GMT -6
That is not a fact, it is an unChristian personal attack. Am I surprised? As for the supposed good that can come from a rehabilitated murderer, there is none, all good comes from God. Even a half-baked Christian ought to know that. All of our rightousness is as filthy rags. There are thousands of people available who could take the place of your favored murderers. Perhaps even their victims might have contributed more. Of course I know that. It is a good thing that we did not execute David Berkowitz and Billy Moore because God is now using them for His purpose. You really think you are on a roll. Don't you? Oh holier than everyone.  |
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Post by Moonbeam on Mar 13, 2010 23:03:35 GMT -6
were you waivering some when you came here? No not waivering. Just becoming better equipped to defend the anti position. You'll need to be a lot better equipped than you currently are You've a heck of a lot to learn if you really think that running around preaching absolves murderers of their evil deeds. |
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Post by johnnyrep on Mar 14, 2010 3:35:56 GMT -6
There's apparently one God but an endless line of people down here on Earth who are ready to tell us exactly what he thinks - be interesting to hear where they get their exclusive knowledge of God's will.
Hilarious.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2010 6:26:43 GMT -6
You cannot use the Bible to condemn the Death Penalty as being immoral. In the Old Testament it mandates the punishment for murder before the law was given to Moses. In the NT Jesus' overwhelming message was to individual; that is all have sinned and are worthy of death, and the only way to avoid that penalty was to believe in Christ.
To directly answer your question;
Read your Bible.
King David was a murderer
(He murdered Uriah the Hittite to conceal his adultery with Bathsheba)
Moses was a murderer
(He murdered an Egyptian)
Yet, God still used them, but both were subject to punishment.
If these convicted men were really saved by God then they would not be bitter towards the state, inflicting the punishment they deserve on them, and neither would they be using their change in stance as a way to manipulate a release from prison
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Seriously though, if you are willing to take someone's life to protect your own I have a question for you. Wouldn't the difference between you and the State really come down to a function of time. You defend yourself, the state defends us all by taking a life. You make your decision in a few tenths of a second while the state gets to mull the problem over. Are you saying that if you had time to think about it, you wouldn't point your weapon center mass and shoot to wound? You have already thought this out if you are saying "except in self defense". 
G-d I'm an agnostic.
