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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 13:13:29 GMT -6
Somebody you posted the following Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. These are the lowest rates of re-arrest for the same category of crime.Are these numbers that you find acceptable? So for every 100 people released from prison 1.2 of them are going to kill again within a two year period. You statistics do not show what the numbers are in 3, 4, or more years, chances are that the percentage will be even higher. Seems Holland doesn't value the lives of the citizens very much Exactly Doc. And what about all the unsolved homicides. Who did those? And what about all the missing persons who were probably murdered. Who committed those? www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/journals/256/missing-persons.htmlMany of the people who go missing in the United States are victims of homicide. Although the conventional approach to locating a missing person is to initiate a criminal investigation into the disappearance, in many cases, the investigation begins at a different point—when human remains are found.Due in part to sheer volume, missing persons and unidentified human remains cases are a tremendous challenge to State and local law enforcement agencies. The workload for these agencies is staggering: More than 40,000 sets of human remains that cannot be identified through conventional means are held in the evidence rooms of medical examiners throughout the countryWho committed those murders? And wouldn't murderers who had been caught before, and knew what got them caught before, be even more likely to have experience that taught them how to get away with it? I don't have any illusions that we know any kind of recidivism rate for murder that is even remotely reliable. And they have already proven what they will do.
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Post by Lauren on Mar 1, 2009 13:18:59 GMT -6
The Dutch prefer to prevent crimes being committed by giving extra help and care for those children who might become criminals one day, America does have that. It's called the big brother/sister programs (or other variations of it). Irony is, Canada has that too, and guess what: Karla Homolka walked out of prison with a free Bachelors of Science Degree in:...now here's the kicker...CRIMINOLOGY. Obviously she can't use that, but I'm paying $5,000 for 4 years to obtain that. It sucks. How can anyone prevent crime, really? The only way to do that is to lock everybody up. Why not spend money on the DP? Hopefully, people planning on committing murder will realize they will have to pay the ultimate price. It works for some people.
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Post by mrbubble on Mar 1, 2009 13:34:45 GMT -6
Well, now you know. We are not familiar with lwop but then again, you Americans are. So, for the U.S.A. it might be a good punishment. Actually, the Netherlands does a better job than most European countries on making sure life imprisonment does really mean for life. Prisoners given life sentences in the Netherlands are not eligible for parole, and can only be released by a commutation or pardon. According to Wikipedia (a shoddy source, I admit) only two such commutations have been granted in the last 50 years, both for terminally ill prisoners. While I would imagine that the Netherlands doesn't impose life sentences very often (considering that the killer of Theo Van Gogh only got a sentences of 28 years), it is reassuring to know that they when they do, they really seem to mean it.
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Post by somebody on Mar 1, 2009 13:52:29 GMT -6
Well, now you know. We are not familiar with lwop but then again, you Americans are. So, for the U.S.A. it might be a good punishment. Actually, the Netherlands does a better job than most European countries on making sure life imprisonment does really mean for life. Prisoners given life sentences in the Netherlands are not eligible for parole, and can only be released by a commutation or pardon. According to Wikipedia (a shoddy source, I admit) only two such commutations have been granted in the last 50 years, both for terminally ill prisoners. While I would imagine that the Netherlands doesn't impose life sentences very often (considering that the killer of Theo Van Gogh only got a sentences of 28 years), it is reassuring to know that they when they do, they really seem to mean it. That's true... I mentioned this in another post. We do have some sort of life imprisonment over here and I must say that lwop for the worst of the worst would be fine for me personally.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 1, 2009 14:02:20 GMT -6
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Post by Stormyweather on Mar 1, 2009 14:05:51 GMT -6
Well, now you know. We are not familiar with lwop but then again, you Americans are. So, for the U.S.A. it might be a good punishment. Actually, the Netherlands does a better job than most European countries on making sure life imprisonment does really mean for life. Prisoners given life sentences in the Netherlands are not eligible for parole, and can only be released by a commutation or pardon. According to Wikipedia (a shoddy source, I admit) only two such commutations have been granted in the last 50 years, both for terminally ill prisoners. While I would imagine that the Netherlands doesn't impose life sentences very often (considering that the killer of Theo Van Gogh only got a sentences of 28 years), it is reassuring to know that they when they do, they really seem to mean it. That's true... I mentioned this in another post. We do have some sort of life imprisonment over here and I must say that lwop for the worst of the worst would be fine for me personally. Why not all murderers?
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Post by somebody on Mar 1, 2009 14:11:37 GMT -6
Somebody you posted the following Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. These are the lowest rates of re-arrest for the same category of crime.Are these numbers that you find acceptable? So for every 100 people released from prison 1.2 of them are going to kill again within a two year period. You statistics do not show what the numbers are in 3, 4, or more years, chances are that the percentage will be even higher. Seems Holland doesn't value the lives of the citizens very much Seems Holland value the lives of the citizens very much... Here, copied from Nationmaster, crime statistics: Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita Definition Source Printable version Bar Graph Map Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom) #1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people #2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people #3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people #4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people #5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people #6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people #7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people #8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people #9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people #10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people #11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people #12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people #13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people #14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people #15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people #16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people #17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people #18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people #19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people #20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people #21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people #22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people #23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people #24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people #25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people #26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people #27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people #28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people #29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people #30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people #31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people #32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people #33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people #34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people #35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people #36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people #37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people #38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people #39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people #40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people #41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people #42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people #43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people #44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people #45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people #46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people #47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people #48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people #49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people #50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people #51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people #52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people #53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people #54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people #55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people #56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people #57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people #58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people #59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people #60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people #61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people #62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people
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Post by Stormyweather on Mar 1, 2009 14:17:02 GMT -6
Antis seem to love to claim that life-without-parole sentences mean a murderer stays in prison until death. Tell that to the family of Gary Grayvold, whose murderer, Dante Ferrazza had his life-without-parole sentence COMMUTED. Was he proven innocent? No. The reason: He served 40 years and he's too old to be a threat now. Well...let's hope Governor Grandholm is right. Only EXECUTIONS GUARANTEE that a murderer will never be released, or ever kill again. macombdaily.com/articles/2008/11/27/news/srv0000004150221.txtSo tell me... Who did Eddie Slovik kill? If Eddie Slovik was such a great person, tell me why he was in and out of reform school and spent time in prison?
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Post by somebody on Mar 1, 2009 14:22:34 GMT -6
That's true... I mentioned this in another post. We do have some sort of life imprisonment over here and I must say that lwop for the worst of the worst would be fine for me personally. Why not all murderers? Well, try to look at it this way: we want to prevent murder, of course, as much as you do, but learning from the U.S.A. is hard when it comes to crime rates. You do have lwop and even the dp but murder rates are high in your country. So, maybe other ways of prevention can be good as well? We look for other ways here...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 14:53:25 GMT -6
Somebody you posted the following Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. These are the lowest rates of re-arrest for the same category of crime.Are these numbers that you find acceptable? So for every 100 people released from prison 1.2 of them are going to kill again within a two year period. You statistics do not show what the numbers are in 3, 4, or more years, chances are that the percentage will be even higher. Seems Holland doesn't value the lives of the citizens very much Seems Holland value the lives of the citizens very much... Here, copied from Nationmaster, crime statistics: Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita Definition Source Printable version Bar Graph Map Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom) #1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people #2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people #3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people #4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people #5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people #6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people #7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people #8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people #9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people #10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people #11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people #12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people #13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people #14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people #15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people #16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people #17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people #18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people #19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people #20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people #21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people #22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people #23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people #24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people #25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people #26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people #27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people #28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people #29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people #30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people #31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people #32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people #33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people #34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people #35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people #36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people #37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people #38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people #39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people #40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people #41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people #42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people #43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people #44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people #45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people #46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people #47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people #48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people #49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people #50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people #51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people #52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people #53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people #54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people #55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people #56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people #57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people #58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people #59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people #60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people #61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people #62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people Statistics aren't your strong point are they? The list shows the murder rates of different countries. I will grant you that Holland has a lower murder rate than the USA, but lenient prison sentences, not educational instruction within the prison system have anything to do with that. I gave you a number of people who will re-offend once they are released from your Dutch penal system. Lets assume that on any given year 2 murderers who have served their sentence kill again. You are saying this is an acceptable number. I will argue that those 2 murders are totally preventable by the use of the death penalty so I am not willing to let the government to gamble with my life in such a manner.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 14:56:40 GMT -6
Well, try to look at it this way: we want to prevent murder, of course, as much as you do, but learning from the U.S.A. is hard when it comes to crime rates. You do have lwop and even the dp but murder rates are high in your country. So, maybe other ways of prevention can be good as well? We look for other ways here... Actually it looks to me by looking at your list that Holland can learn from the last 4 countries on the list you posted. #59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people #60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people #61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people #62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people all of which have capital punishment.
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Post by Charlene on Mar 1, 2009 15:00:54 GMT -6
www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=92123This murderer was released on Jan 7, 2009. Here are the conditions of his release. 01 - Contact agent no later than first business day after release -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 02 - Must not change residence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.0 - Not use/possess alcohol/intoxicants or in place served -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.1 - Complete Sub Abuse or Re-Entry Program as referred by agent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 03 - Must not leave state -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.7 - Complete tether program -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 04 - Not engage in any behavior that constitutes a violation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.5 - No contact/or within 500' home/school/employment of (name) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.16 - Obey all court orders -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 05 - Comply with alcohol and drug testing ordered by field agent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 06 - Not associate with anyone you know to have a felony record -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 07 - Must not own or possess a firearm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 08 - Must not own, possess or use any object as a weapon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 09 - Make earnest efforts to find and maintain employment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 - Must comply w/special conditions, written and verbal orders -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 99 - Parole Board Non-Standard Special Condition
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Post by somebody on Mar 1, 2009 15:24:20 GMT -6
Hi Doc,
You wrote: "Lets assume that on any given year 2 murderers who have served their sentence kill again. You are saying this is an acceptable number. I will argue that those 2 murders are totally preventable by the use of the death penalty so I am not willing to let the government to gamble with my life in such a manner."
My reply: "I am not saying that this is an acceptable number. I am saying that I don't learn much from the U.S.A. Suppose you would execute those two. Suppose. Ok, the two of them will cause no more harm, that's for sure. I give you that. But: Your crime rate is higher than ours. So, how much is your government gambling with your life? This so called safety is not achieved by executing because not many murderers are executed. There are about 60 death row inmates a year in a country as big as yours whom are executed. What about the prevention of recidivism of all those other murderers?"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 15:36:44 GMT -6
Hi Doc, You wrote: "Lets assume that on any given year 2 murderers who have served their sentence kill again. You are saying this is an acceptable number. I will argue that those 2 murders are totally preventable by the use of the death penalty so I am not willing to let the government to gamble with my life in such a manner." My reply: "I am not saying that this is an acceptable number. I am saying that I don't learn much from the U.S.A. Suppose you would execute those two. Suppose. Ok, the two of them will cause no more harm, that's for sure. I give you that. But: Your crime rate is higher than ours. So, how much is your government gambling with your life? This so called safety is not achieved by executing because not many murderers are executed. There are about 60 death row inmates a year in a country as big as yours whom are executed. What about the prevention of recidivism of all those other murderers?" Many things have to come together to prevent people from committing murder and repeat murder. It is nearly impossible to compare the USA with any European country and then quote murder rates, there are to many other factors that come into play. Large unprotected border with Mexico, gun laws, large minority populations, and a vast difference in the social welfare makeup. I don't have an answer to preventing people from committing crimes in the first place, but once they do I believe if the crime merits it then they should be executed. This will prevent them from committing any more crimes. Now I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday and I have seen many people say that there is little deterrent effect when it comes to the death penalty. However this is a hard to prove as how do you count a crime that was never committed. If by executing every person who is guilty of murder 1 single person is deterred from committing a murder would you not say it is worth it?
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Post by kingsindanger on Mar 1, 2009 15:42:04 GMT -6
Yawn.
Ricardo Ortiz is a prime example why LWOP horribly fails. He was able to kill another inmate by injecting him with an overdose. How many people has he killed since his execution? Enough said.
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Post by somebody on Mar 1, 2009 16:40:00 GMT -6
Hi Doc, You wrote: "Lets assume that on any given year 2 murderers who have served their sentence kill again. You are saying this is an acceptable number. I will argue that those 2 murders are totally preventable by the use of the death penalty so I am not willing to let the government to gamble with my life in such a manner." My reply: "I am not saying that this is an acceptable number. I am saying that I don't learn much from the U.S.A. Suppose you would execute those two. Suppose. Ok, the two of them will cause no more harm, that's for sure. I give you that. But: Your crime rate is higher than ours. So, how much is your government gambling with your life? This so called safety is not achieved by executing because not many murderers are executed. There are about 60 death row inmates a year in a country as big as yours whom are executed. What about the prevention of recidivism of all those other murderers?" Many things have to come together to prevent people from committing murder and repeat murder. It is nearly impossible to compare the USA with any European country and then quote murder rates, there are to many other factors that come into play. Large unprotected border with Mexico, gun laws, large minority populations, and a vast difference in the social welfare makeup. I don't have an answer to preventing people from committing crimes in the first place, but once they do I believe if the crime merits it then they should be executed. This will prevent them from committing any more crimes. Now I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday and I have seen many people say that there is little deterrent effect when it comes to the death penalty. However this is a hard to prove as how do you count a crime that was never committed. If by executing every person who is guilty of murder 1 single person is deterred from committing a murder would you not say it is worth it? First of all: thank you for your serious reply! Of course I love the fact of deterring the committing of a murder. But... not like this. There are many ways to deter crime and we don't chose them either. For example: cutting off the private parts of a raper will definatelly prevent him from raping anyone ever anymore, and yet we don't chose for it because the action itself is too bad to agree with. It would lower ourselves as well. So, however it is 100% effective, we don't chose for this option as a punishment. For me it's about the same with the dp. It is definatelly the best way to deter a crime but I think we shouldn't chose for it because, to me, the action itself is too bad to agree with it. What the murderer did was evil, the worst thing imaginable: stopping the heartbeat of another human being. To me the dp is something like that as well: it stops the heartbeat of another human being and, although effective, the action itself will lower ourselves.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Mar 1, 2009 16:49:53 GMT -6
Well, try to look at it this way: we want to prevent murder, of course, as much as you do, but learning from the U.S.A. is hard when it comes to crime rates. You do have lwop and even the dp but murder rates are high in your country. So, maybe other ways of prevention can be good as well? We look for other ways here... Actually it looks to me by looking at your list that Holland can learn from the last 4 countries on the list you posted. #59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people #60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people #61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people #62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people all of which have capital punishment. Doc, actually Hong Kong does not have the dp. I know WIKI is not the best source, but I believe this is accurate: Capital punishment in Hong Kong has been formally abolished in 1993.
Before that, capital punishment was the regular sentence since the establishment of the Crown Colony of Hong Kong for offences such as murder, kidnapping leading to death, and piracy. [1] However, it had been suspended since the last execution on 16 November 1966. [2] Since then, the Governor had automatically commuted the sentences of those so convicted under the death penalty to life imprisonment under the Royal Prerogative of mercy. [3] In April 1993, capital punishment was officially abolished in Hong Kong. [4] Since then, life imprisonment becomes the most severe punishment in Hong Kong.
It is worth noting that, under the principle of independence of legal system in Hong Kong Basic Law, Hong Kong continues its repudiation of capital punishment after its handover to People's Republic of China [5] despite the fact that capital punishment is practised in China.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 17:00:51 GMT -6
Actually it looks to me by looking at your list that Holland can learn from the last 4 countries on the list you posted. #59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people #60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people #61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people #62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people all of which have capital punishment. Doc, actually Hong Kong does not have the dp. I know WIKI is not the best source, but I believe this is accurate: Capital punishment in Hong Kong has been formally abolished in 1993.
Before that, capital punishment was the regular sentence since the establishment of the Crown Colony of Hong Kong for offences such as murder, kidnapping leading to death, and piracy. [1] However, it had been suspended since the last execution on 16 November 1966. [2] Since then, the Governor had automatically commuted the sentences of those so convicted under the death penalty to life imprisonment under the Royal Prerogative of mercy. [3] In April 1993, capital punishment was officially abolished in Hong Kong. [4] Since then, life imprisonment becomes the most severe punishment in Hong Kong.
It is worth noting that, under the principle of independence of legal system in Hong Kong Basic Law, Hong Kong continues its repudiation of capital punishment after its handover to People's Republic of China [5] despite the fact that capital punishment is practised in China. I didn't research it Erick, but I assumed that since it is once again part of China if they want to execute someone they are going to.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Mar 1, 2009 17:06:56 GMT -6
Doc, actually Hong Kong does not have the dp. I know WIKI is not the best source, but I believe this is accurate: Capital punishment in Hong Kong has been formally abolished in 1993.
Before that, capital punishment was the regular sentence since the establishment of the Crown Colony of Hong Kong for offenses such as murder, kidnapping leading to death, and piracy. [1] However, it had been suspended since the last execution on 16 November 1966. [2] Since then, the Governor had automatically commuted the sentences of those so convicted under the death penalty to life imprisonment under the Royal Prerogative of mercy. [3] In April 1993, capital punishment was officially abolished in Hong Kong. [4] Since then, life imprisonment becomes the most severe punishment in Hong Kong.
It is worth noting that, under the principle of independence of legal system in Hong Kong Basic Law, Hong Kong continues its repudiation of capital punishment after its handover to People's Republic of China [5] despite the fact that capital punishment is practiced in China. I didn't research it Erick, but I assumed that since it is once again part of China if they want to execute someone they are going to. I wish they would. I'd commend them for having such a low murder rate, but if when the do have a murder, there should be a corresponding execution.
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Post by Tracy on Mar 1, 2009 17:11:46 GMT -6
What the murderer did was evil, the worst thing imaginable: stopping the heartbeat of another human being. To me the dp is something like that as well: it stops the heartbeat of another human being and, although effective, the action itself will lower ourselves. We arent lowering ourselves by carrying out a just punishment. Its simple really, dont kill people and you wont be put to death. And after they are sentenced to death for murdering innocent people dont cry about it, its noones fault but their own, why should we care if they live or die? They obviously didnt care about their victims did they?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 17:14:24 GMT -6
First of all: thank you for your serious reply!
Of course I love the fact of deterring the committing of a murder. But... not like this. There are many ways to deter crime and we don't chose them either. For example: cutting off the private parts of a raper will definatelly prevent him from raping anyone ever anymore, and yet we don't chose for it because the action itself is too bad to agree with. It would lower ourselves as well. So, however it is 100% effective, we don't chose for this option as a punishment.
For me it's about the same with the dp. It is definatelly the best way to deter a crime but I think we shouldn't chose for it because, to me, the action itself is too bad to agree with it.
What the murderer did was evil, the worst thing imaginable: stopping the heartbeat of another human being. To me the dp is something like that as well: it stops the heartbeat of another human being and, although effective, the action itself will lower ourselves.
That is the main difference, I don't see it as lowering the value of its citizens but rather saying it is saying that our citizens are our most valuable asset. If a person murders someone then they must pay the ultimate price, they forfeit their own life. I am actually in Canada, and I see news reports of people being released from prison for murder, and then going on to kill again. Canada like Holland has no true LWOP sentence. Some people may never get out alive, but they have the right to petition for their release or parole after a specified amount of time. Recently in a city about 150km a man murdered his girl friend and young child. He had been released from prison the year before. I blame the death of the two innocent people not only on the murderer but on all of society for allowing someone like him to not only be released from jail, but also for being alive. If we had the balls to do what is needed to protect ourselves from the evils of society many people would still be alive.
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Post by Stormyweather on Mar 1, 2009 18:31:54 GMT -6
You do have lwop and even the dp but murder rates are high in your country. So, maybe other ways of prevention can be good as well? We look for other ways here... So do you think having the dp and LWOP cause murderers and rapists to re offend? Even though Holland doesn't even have LWOP do any re offend?
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Post by Stormyweather on Mar 1, 2009 18:34:50 GMT -6
What the murderer did was evil, the worst thing imaginable: stopping the heartbeat of another human being. Personally I don't believe you really feel that way.
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Post by olivebranch on Mar 1, 2009 19:56:13 GMT -6
Hi all, I copied this from the U.S. department of justice, criminal offender statistics, characteristics of jail inmates. These are the kind of characteristics well known in the Netherlands as well. We try to prevent these groups from committing crimes by offering help: Family background Thirty-one percent of jail inmates had grown up with a parent or guardian who abused alcohol or drugs About 12 percent had lived in a foster home or institution. Forty-six percent had a family member who had been incarcerated. More than 50% of the women in jail said they had been physically or sexually abused in the past, compared to more than 10% of the men. Here in the great ole USA the main cause of crime is racism and poverty. Most criminals simply don't have any other choice but to commit crime to survive. The Republican party has pretty much cut funing for inner city schools taking away any opportunity for poor students to escape poverty. The police in our poorer areas basically exist to harrass minorities and frame them for crimes while providing zero support to the very people they are supposed to be protecting. Despite all of this many still support the death penalty, LWOP and other horrors while offering no solutions or help to our poorest and most unfortunate.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Mar 1, 2009 19:58:17 GMT -6
First of all: thank you for your serious reply!
Of course I love the fact of deterring the committing of a murder. But... not like this. There are many ways to deter crime and we don't chose them either. For example: cutting off the private parts of a raper will definatelly prevent him from raping anyone ever anymore, and yet we don't chose for it because the action itself is too bad to agree with. It would lower ourselves as well. So, however it is 100% effective, we don't chose for this option as a punishment.
For me it's about the same with the dp. It is definatelly the best way to deter a crime but I think we shouldn't chose for it because, to me, the action itself is too bad to agree with it.
What the murderer did was evil, the worst thing imaginable: stopping the heartbeat of another human being. To me the dp is something like that as well: it stops the heartbeat of another human being and, although effective, the action itself will lower ourselves.That is the main difference, I don't see it as lowering the value of its citizens but rather saying it is saying that our citizens are our most valuable asset. If a person murders someone then they must pay the ultimate price, they forfeit their own life. I am actually in Canada, and I see news reports of people being released from prison for murder, and then going on to kill again. Canada like Holland has no true LWOP sentence. Some people may never get out alive, but they have the right to petition for their release or parole after a specified amount of time. Recently in a city about 150km a man murdered his girl friend and young child. He had been released from prison the year before. I blame the death of the two innocent people not only on the murderer but on all of society for allowing someone like him to not only be released from jail, but also for being alive. If we had the balls to do what is needed to protect ourselves from the evils of society many people would still be alive. 100% spot-on, Doc:
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mst3k4evur
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Member of the Month - 4/09
Ameeerrrrrricaaa, F**k Yah!
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 1, 2009 19:59:23 GMT -6
Of course I love the fact of deterring the committing of a murder. But... not like this. There are many ways to deter crime and we don't chose them either. For example: cutting off the private parts of a raper will definatelly prevent him from raping anyone ever anymore, and yet we don't chose for it because the action itself is too bad to agree with. It would lower ourselves as well. So, however it is 100% effective, we don't chose for this option as a punishment. That's not nearly as effective as you think. Wayne DuMond was castrated, he claimed by vigilantes, while awaiting trial for rape in Arkansas. After release he moved to Missouri and killed two women. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_DuMond
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 20:07:43 GMT -6
So tell me... Who did Eddie Slovik kill? Are you still upset that Texas Governor Rick Perry allowed Jose Medellin to be executed? Was Dwight Eisenhower an egghead when he defeated the Nazis in World War II? Are the things that bother you most about Tim Kaine is he allowed the executions of murderers Dexter Lee Vinson, Brandon Hedrick, Michael Lenz, John Schmitt, Rob Yarbrough, Kevin Green, Chris Emmet, Kent Jackson, and Edward Bell to go forward? Kaine is a god damned hypocrite. He's not an anti... Perry spit in the face of International law. Wouldn't it be lovely if his kid gets arrested overseas and he's denied the right to contact an American consulate?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 20:10:22 GMT -6
Hi all, I copied this from the U.S. department of justice, criminal offender statistics, characteristics of jail inmates. These are the kind of characteristics well known in the Netherlands as well. We try to prevent these groups from committing crimes by offering help: Family background Thirty-one percent of jail inmates had grown up with a parent or guardian who abused alcohol or drugs About 12 percent had lived in a foster home or institution. Forty-six percent had a family member who had been incarcerated. More than 50% of the women in jail said they had been physically or sexually abused in the past, compared to more than 10% of the men. Here in the great ole USA the main cause of crime is racism and poverty. Most criminals simply don't have any other choice but to commit crime to survive. The Republican party has pretty much cut funing for inner city schools taking away any opportunity for poor students to escape poverty. The police in our poorer areas basically exist to harrass minorities and frame them for crimes while providing zero support to the very people they are supposed to be protecting. Despite all of this many still support the death penalty, LWOP and other horrors while offering no solutions or help to our poorest and most unfortunate. Bravo! The pigs here in St. Pete have gotten away with a lot...you'd think Arpaio or Frank Rizzo was in charge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 20:17:01 GMT -6
Are you still upset that Texas Governor Rick Perry allowed Jose Medellin to be executed? Was Dwight Eisenhower an egghead when he defeated the Nazis in World War II? Are the things that bother you most about Tim Kaine is he allowed the executions of murderers Dexter Lee Vinson, Brandon Hedrick, Michael Lenz, John Schmitt, Rob Yarbrough, Kevin Green, Chris Emmet, Kent Jackson, and Edward Bell to go forward? Kaine is a god damned hypocrite. He's not an anti... Perry spit in the face of International law. Wouldn't it be lovely if his kid gets arrested overseas and he's denied the right to contact an American consulate? When was Medellin denied the right to contact the Mexican consulate? You know there is a vast difference between denying someone their rights and holding and not informing them of a right that would not have made the least difference in the sentence.
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Post by Stormyweather on Mar 1, 2009 20:17:23 GMT -6
Are you still upset that Texas Governor Rick Perry allowed Jose Medellin to be executed? Was Dwight Eisenhower an egghead when he defeated the Nazis in World War II? Are the things that bother you most about Tim Kaine is he allowed the executions of murderers Dexter Lee Vinson, Brandon Hedrick, Michael Lenz, John Schmitt, Rob Yarbrough, Kevin Green, Chris Emmet, Kent Jackson, and Edward Bell to go forward? Kaine is a god damned hypocrite. He's not an anti... Perry spit in the face of International law. Wouldn't it be lovely if his kid gets arrested overseas and he's denied the right to contact an American consulate? You didn't answer a single question I asked. Just spouted more nonsense.
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