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Post by Californian on Feb 26, 2009 9:54:43 GMT -6
To paraphrase The Bard, "A scumpal by any other name smells just as bad." ;D
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 26, 2009 10:04:55 GMT -6
Hi Felix, I looked it up (I want to be at least punctual when it comes to this controversial study). The outcome was (I copied this): "Dr. Thomas Blass of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County performed a meta-analysis on the results of repeated performances of the experiment. He found that the percentage of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages remains remarkably constant, 61–66 percent, regardless of time or place." The experiment can be found at Wikipedia. It's named "Milgram experiment". I don't know how to post a link here but this will do. I am aware of such studies, but wonder if stormy is? I think there is no escaping soem of the possible conclusions with regard to the way we dispose of serious cases. Why just me? Why not Californian, Subsurfcpo, J.B.S., Lady, and other people who have commented? I personally could care less about how normal Nazis, who helped murder masses of people, were otherwise in their lives.
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 26, 2009 10:23:51 GMT -6
Just because a parent murders doesnt mean that the relationship between parent and child is going to end. It does, and should. Are you suggesting that a child shouldnt see their parent just because they killed someone? That's what I'm suggesting. Murder is too vile a crime to simply be swept under a familial rug. Any family that cares about its honor expunges the murderer who betrayed that honor. It's a no-brainer. If the circumstances are in the best interests of the child, i.e poverty, abused by the said parent etc then yes, it would be in the best interest for that child to be separated from that parent, but not in anyother case. Children are much better off severing their associations with killers. I could *bi+ch*-slap any parent who doesn't try to protect his/her child from murderers. say the child kills, would you then cut yourself off from that child who needs your support, love and help? Of course. In a heartbeat, and my children have always known it. That's why they're not criminals. I made them think about the consequences. If every parent did that, the world would be a better place.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 26, 2009 10:56:37 GMT -6
I am aware of such studies, but wonder if stormy is? I think there is no escaping soem of the possible conclusions with regard to the way we dispose of serious cases. Why just me? Why not Californian, Subsurfcpo, J.B.S., Lady, and other people who have commented? I personally could care less about how normal Nazis, who helped murder masses of people, were otherwise in their lives. Honestly, and please don't take this the wrong way as it is merely an observation, you were the closest and therefore the easiest one to strike at. I made a reference to Schrödinger's cat in a previous post. He certainly wasn't coming after me. That might imply several things one of which is I am aware of obscure experiments and/or I am aware of German and European history. However, I think Bob had it right - logic, fact and reason are hard to rebut. Besides, I can be a pompous ass and rather haughty on occasion. Plus, I like to quote movies. Remember the princess bride? "And I certainly can't chose the glass in front of me"
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Post by brumsongs on Feb 26, 2009 10:58:18 GMT -6
I was only expunging my familial rug the other day.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 26, 2009 11:00:56 GMT -6
I was only expunging my familial rug the other day. To what end, pray tell?
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Post by brumsongs on Feb 26, 2009 11:02:26 GMT -6
I was only expunging my familial rug the other day. To what end, pray tell? Joseph had spilt dispositive milquetoast crumbs all over it.
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 26, 2009 11:19:55 GMT -6
Why just me? Why not Californian, Subsurfcpo, J.B.S., Lady, and other people who have commented? I personally could care less about how normal Nazis, who helped murder masses of people, were otherwise in their lives. Honestly, and please don't take this the wrong way as it is merely an observation, you were the closest and therefore the easiest one to strike at. Well mostly I was just curious. It's not that it really bothers me.
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 26, 2009 11:50:48 GMT -6
That's what I'm suggesting. Murder is too vile a crime to simply be swept under a familial rug. Any family that cares about its honor expunges the murderer who betrayed that honor. It's a no-brainer. Joe, what many don't realize is parents that commit vile crimes aren't good parents. Do you remember when Cathy Henderson was up for execution, how her one daughter Melissa was looking forward to it? Cathy had lost custody of her two older daughters. The younger daughter who was only four when her mother committed the crime was the one who visited her mother?
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 26, 2009 12:12:43 GMT -6
Honestly, and please don't take this the wrong way as it is merely an observation, you were the closest and therefore the easiest one to strike at. Well mostly I was just curious. It's not that it really bothers me. Actually, I went back and reviewed the posts and you, Cali and I were the only ones in an active mode. Lady and JBS had not posted. So, to correct my earlier comment. He went after you because you were obviously nicer than me or Cali.No, here is what I think really happened. Take the stricken notes from above and add this. Lady and JBS have had terrible things happen in their lives. From my chair, I don't know your background and would expect that they did not either. It was easier to go after you instead of me or Cali (since we are not nice as establisher earlier) and it would not be prudent to go after Lady or JBS because of their past.
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 26, 2009 12:45:36 GMT -6
Well mostly I was just curious. It's not that it really bothers me. Actually, I went back and reviewed the posts and you, Cali and I were the only ones in an active mode. Lady and JBS had not posted. So, to correct my earlier comment. He went after you because you were obviously nicer than me or Cali.No, here is what I think really happened. Take the stricken notes from above and add this. Lady and JBS have had terrible things happen in their lives. From my chair, I don't know your background and would expect that they did not either. It was easier to go after you instead of me or Cali (since we are not nice as establisher earlier) and it would not be prudent to go after Lady or JBS because of their past. I'm probably not as nice as you think, I have been known to have an ornery side at times.
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 26, 2009 12:46:44 GMT -6
what many don't realize is parents that commit vile crimes aren't good parents. Correct. A moral person would think that was quite obvious. Do you remember when Cathy Henderson was up for execution, how her one daughter Melissa was looking forward to it? Cathy had lost custody of her two older daughters. The younger daughter who was only four when her mother committed the crime was the one who visited her mother? I don't remember that case but you are quite correct. The juxtaposition of children to murderers is not a good idea, whether or not the children are related to the murderers. I just don't know how someone can contemplate the murder of a human being and not be disgusted by it. And yet these pinheads come here and ask, in all sincerity, why murderers should forever be judged by their "mistakes." I just have to shake my head and wonder.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 16:36:44 GMT -6
I know. I don't know how I manage to discuss the dp over here anymore... I once, more than two years ago, made the huge mistake by mentioning that I am writing with a dr-inmate because I wanted to give them another story from a pen pal. I am not the "he is so nice and good" kind of person at all. I hate him for what he has done, went to the graveyard to pay my respect to the victim and help him to talk about his remorse. As a therapist I work with children who are victims of crimes adults committed. I wanted to show them that, despite the differences, there are pen pals who care. But I made a mistake. It's too painful over here to mention this. More than two years later I thought I could come over here again and discuss the dp but I cannot. They remember. So, I think I should stop anyway. Do you agree? And, just because I'm curious, do you think you can change anybody's opinion according the dp over here? I know this has been asked before and if you answered it I apologize for asking again . If you hate what he did so much why do you continue to write to him ? How can you justify writing and supporting this person when you have stated time and time again that you hate what he did ? Do you not realize how that comes across on this board ? If not , I will do my best to enlighten you . Its one thing if you are writing to a dr inmate you are related to ,or if you knew the DR inmate before they committed the crime that landed them there , but you are writing to them to encourage them , support them and that is much much more than the victim gets . That is what angers people here ,especially those who are MVS . I am assuming since you claimed to visit the gravesite of the victim , then you must of visited the inmate as well ,since you came from overseas to do so . I am sure you didn't travel all that way just to visit a grave site .How nice of you to remember the victim ! {sarcasm incerted here } So you visited a grave site , imagine being that victims family , thats all they get to visit , is a grave site . The victim family can't write letters to their loved one , all they can do is visit a grave site . The victims family can't talk to their loved one , once again all they can do is talk to them at a grave site . The victims family doesn't have years and years to say goodbye to their loved one ,their goodbye was rather abrupt ,and once again said at a grave site . Your inmate gets friendship , letters ,phone calls ,visits ,commessary ,TV ,Radio , a bed to sleep in ,and 3 meals a day .Heck DR inmates can ever get married in prison and all that involves . { I won't go into that here ,out of respect} The accomidations may not be hotel quality ,but ya have to admit it is much better then being in a dirt bed .{ No disrespect intended here ,just stating fact .} YOUR INMATE IS BREATHING AND THE VICTIM IS NOT .....WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT THE INMATE HAS IT BETTER THAN THE VICTIM AT THIS POINT . Edited to add one final thought , you can't pick who you are related to , but you can pick your friends .Think about it Just my two cents . Hi Lady, I will try to answer your questions. I must admit that it is very difficult for me because I have to write in another language (sorry for the mistakes) but also because so many things are involved when it comes to answering them. Your first question is the most difficult one of all. I've tried to answer this one before on this board but never seemed to do it right. I will try it once more and this time I will take my time to do so... You've asked:"If you hate what he did so much why do you continue to write to him?" I know and understand that this must be so hard to understand, especially because there is a victim's family who cannot write letters or talk to their loved one anymore and only have a grave site to visit... This inmate is breathing and the victim is not. This inmate has it better, absolutely, than the victim. And then there is this woman from The Netherlands, who, while knowing about it, keeps on writing anyway. It sure looks and sounds like that but please try to read this carefully. I've put a lot of time in my reply because I want to be respectful but there is so much involved... I'm sorry that I have to use this many words to do so but I cannot seem to find another way to explain it, especially because my answers have never been good enough before. As you know by now (I'm repeating this because others who read this might not know about it) I started writing when I was 18 years old. I wanted to do something against the dp and thought this was a good way to do it. I do not agree with that anymore. Writing to a dr inmate is definatelly not the best way of protesting against the dp. After this correspondence I will never do it again. I also thought that it wouldn't matter what he'd done because to me it was about being against the dp (no matter what). Keep in mind that I was 18 years old back then, ok? (Still living with my parents, going to school, sharing schoolgirl's talks) Of course I've changed my opinion about this. Although I still don't believe in the dp I do think that it does matter what someone has done when it comes to staying in touch. It took me years and years but when I finally found out about the crime he had committed the facts were so heinous, so cruel, that I would never have started this correspondence when I would have known about it to begin with. But there was no internet at that time (1984). I didn't know... Many years later I found out about the crime. He told me about it during a visit. I also read the newspapers in the local library. It was a shock. I cannot put it into other words than this. I thought I should stop writing immediately. It was as if I betrayed the MVS involved. I went to the graveyard and paid my respect to the victim. The brutal fact that there was only this grey stone to be visited with the victim's name, relatives far away, was so sad. I stood there with my flowers and cried. I hated him. During one of those sleepless nights in my hotelroom I thought about what I could do. I wanted to get in touch with the MVS but I thought they'd never wanted to hear anything from me because I wrote with him for many years already. I thought about stop writing and visiting but before I could make my decision I had to know if he felt remorse about the crime or not, so I went to prison anyway and asked him that. Well, I shouted it, to be frankly (as soft as possible because of the guards) and although I don't like namecalling at all, I did it non stop. His remorse was overwhelming. No speeches, no explanations, no "I've had such a bad childhood" or "it was because of the drugs and alcohol" at all. He took full responsibility and felt so bad about what he'd done. It was written all over on his face. You will probably say that he could pretend, could fake it, but believe me, there is no way an emotion this overwhelming, this big, can be faked so easily. I will not state it cannot be done ever, I can only say that I saw remorse on every inch of his face. I still didn't know what to do. I went back to my hotel and thought about it for hours: This story of grief and pain started at one night, many, many years ago: a man destroyed the life of a victim in the most heinous way there was and still is. He committed the worst individual crime a man can commit. And the pain went on... he destroyed the lives of the MVS's. Completely. They would never be able to hug or kiss their loved one anymore and would never be able to forget about it. There would be no way to deal with this for them... He destroyed the lives of his family members as well (their names and addresses were in the newspapers, people were driving by and yelling names). He had caused so much pain, destroyed so many lives... To me it felt as if it was beyond dp or lwop, beyond punishment, it was about the pain which will never fade: the loss of the victim. Personally, on this level, there is nothing I can do. I can work with victims as a therapist but not help this victim anymore... The only thing left over for me on a personal level was to help him face his remorse and express it. So that's what I decided to do. It was not about getting married to him (no way! I am very happily married for 19 years now and I will never, ever want to marry with someone who has committed such a heinous crime) as you kindly - but with incerted sarcasm -joked about, it was not about forgetting the victim because I dream about this person and think about him/her every day of my life from now on, it was about doing the only thing I could think of doing in this particular spiral of pain and grief. As soon as I came home I spoke with as many spiritual persons as I could find, from all kinds of religions and backgrounds. I've read books and visited websites to try and find a way to deal with it and I read a story about Cary Ann Medlin which touched me tremendously because of the words she spoke to the murderer just before she died. I've read that after 21 years of trial and appeals, Robert Glen Coe, the one who murdered her, was executed (April 19, 2000). Cary's family watched the execution from an adjoining room. Much to their sadness, Coe did not apologize before his death. Then it all made a little more sense to me, and my feelings of guilt towards the victim and the MVS became a little more bearable to me (although still there): there was something I could do. Although I didn't know and still don't know if the MVS involved in this particular crime care about his remorse, I can try to talk with this inmate, pushing him to share his remorse with me and then write them a letter. I can then try and find the MVS. Maybe they don't want this letter with remorseful words. Maybe they do. I don't know. MVS's react in different ways. But if, by chance, they feel the same way about remorse as the parents of Cary Ann Medlin, then there is something I can do for the victim's family. A small thing. Maybe, just maybe, it might give them just a little glimpse of comfort, a spark - nothing more-, a small moment of "at least he felt remorse for what he did to the victim and to us". So, I had my doubts and I still have them. I do not know if this is the right way to deal with it. I don't. My personal story is also not about "persons should do this or that when dealing with a similar situation as I did". On the contrary. There are so many different ways to respond! And, besides that, my story will never be repeated. There is internet now. Nobody gets caught in a correspondence without knowing about the crime (as I did) anymore... I can understand the MVS wanting him to be executed, some colleagues of me who cannot deal with what I'm doing (others approve but that's not important to make this point) and you, Lady and others, asking me questions and thinking I must be out of my head to continue. And although I am absolutely sure that you will not approve nor respect what I am trying to do, I hope that you could at least accept it, just a little bit. Nothing more. I hope you will look at me as this weird lady from The Netherlands who tries to do the right thing, probably makes a mistake, but does it with care and warmth in her heart. Kind regards, Somebody
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 17:00:15 GMT -6
Hi Subsurfcpo, Your post was: 1) The children are considered. My earlier post (somewhere on another thread) stated this as well. They are paraded around the court and used to sway the jury towards LWOP. LWOP is and always will be an option. It is your argument that it is not, the facts prove otherwise it is. LWOP is always an option. It is not always chosen; that is your real point of contention. 2) This comment will be very harsh. If you would use the children as a means to and end, then I feel your moral compass is off. Using children for political gain is wrong regardless of the "good intentions".
My anwer: I never said that children should get paraded around the court! I thought you asked about consideration, not about personal involvement in court proceedings. I am so used at the fact that this is no way to treat children that I didn't thought about how children can be used in the U.S.A. (sometimes). So, NO, no use of children for political gain, just thinking about them, considering their thoughts and needs BEFORE going to court, BEFORE making whatever kind of decision that might have a tremendous effect on their lives (and without media or politics being involved. Just adults - lawyers, the judge, caretakers - talking and considering what option would be best for the children involved..). Kind regards, Somebody
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 17:30:48 GMT -6
A letter out of the blue from the murderer might just be devastating. It's not even supposed to happen in the state of Texas. The murderer is not supposed to contact the survivors unless the survivors themselves request a supervised reconciliation process (with support before and after for the survivors).
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 17:45:33 GMT -6
A letter out of the blue from the murderer might just be devastating. It's not even supposed to happen in the state of Texas. The murderer is not supposed to contact the survivors unless the survivors themselves request a supervised reconciliation process (with support before and after for the survivors). O no, I would never recommend that! Even after using so many words I should have used more to explain myself properly. I am sorry. I will keep this letter and look for the MVS and then try to contact them as carefully as possible, hopefully by contacting someone whom they trust at first, someone who can give them the support they need while they listen to the possibility of receiving this letter, one day, from me...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 17:52:30 GMT -6
So you want ALL the drama you can get huh Why the heck don't you just leave them alone and let THEM decide if they want to talk to him ON THEIR OWN
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Post by ltdc on Feb 26, 2009 17:54:27 GMT -6
some don't, that's true. but I believe most do or can and I think almost all would if they didn't delude themselves into not believing the signs and maybe it's just a father/cop/over forty thing Is that an opinion based on fact or feeling? I'm curious. There are plenty of people who are murdered by their significant others. Would you say that they were deluding themselves and bear some responsibility for their own murders? it's an opinion based on experience and a healthy dose of suspicion of most things human. that was the father/cop/overforty thing there. every father here who has watched "who or what" their daughters have drug home will understand me. as usual every time the word most is used out come the exceptions. I'm fully aware of the exceptions, that's why most doesn't mean every.but my experience is that we do cause the majority of our own problems. and yes, some victims do bear some responsibility in their own murders. now remember some doesn't mean every either.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 18:01:36 GMT -6
So you want ALL the drama you can get huh Why the heck don't you just leave them alone and let THEM decide if they want to talk to him ON THEIR OWN Maybe I will. I still don't know if this is the right thing to do. I just thought of these parents who were disappointed by the lack of remorse the murderer expressed just before his execution.
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 26, 2009 18:03:59 GMT -6
The murderer is not supposed to contact the survivors unless the survivors themselves request a supervised reconciliation process (with support before and after for the survivors). I would sincerely hope that my survivors would never even think about reconciliation with my murderer. I mean dam#n... it's bad enough I get murdered and my supposed loved ones want to play nice with the guy(s) who murdered me? How messed up is that?
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 18:10:27 GMT -6
The murderer is not supposed to contact the survivors unless the survivors themselves request a supervised reconciliation process (with support before and after for the survivors). I would sincerely hope that my survivors would never even think about reconciliation with my murderer. I mean dam#n... it's bad enough I get murdered and my supposed loved ones want to play nice with the guy(s) who murdered me? How messed up is that? I never said "play nice". I wrote about the possibility to give the MVS the chance (IF they want this and ONLY if they approve) to read a letter about remorse, probably AFTER the execution and, then again, ONLY when they want this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 18:10:29 GMT -6
The murderer is not supposed to contact the survivors unless the survivors themselves request a supervised reconciliation process (with support before and after for the survivors). I would sincerely hope that my survivors would never even think about reconciliation with my murderer. I mean dam#n... it's bad enough I get murdered and my supposed loved ones want to play nice with the guy(s) who murdered me? How messed up is that? It's not for me either. It might mean more to someone in an interfamily situation, though. Or if they knew the murderer. Or for whatever reason, I am glad if it helps the MVS be able to walk around in it better somehow. As long as it is their own choosing, and no one pressuring them.
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Feb 26, 2009 18:12:52 GMT -6
The ONLY contact i would want with a murderer is the invitation from the prison where he is to be executed so I could view it. Otherwise, I want NO contact, unless i can beat the S#%t out of him with a baton. Then we do the execution.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 18:19:47 GMT -6
The ONLY contact i would want with a murderer is the invitation from the prison where he is to be executed so I could view it. Otherwise, I want NO contact, unless i can beat the S#%t out of him with a baton. Then we do the execution. Ok. After this experience I agree completely with not wanting contact with a murderer. I just don't want to watch an execution...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 18:22:25 GMT -6
I would sincerely hope that my survivors would never even think about reconciliation with my murderer. I mean dam#n... it's bad enough I get murdered and my supposed loved ones want to play nice with the guy(s) who murdered me? How messed up is that? I never said "play nice". I wrote about the possibility to give the MVS the chance (IF they want this and ONLY if they approve) to read a letter about remorse, probably AFTER the execution and, then again, ONLY when they want this. Why would you insert yourself into their lives uninvited at all? Can't you find some drama in your own life to keep you busy, and leave these people alone? The gall, the unmitigated gall
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 18:25:38 GMT -6
I never said "play nice". I wrote about the possibility to give the MVS the chance (IF they want this and ONLY if they approve) to read a letter about remorse, probably AFTER the execution and, then again, ONLY when they want this. Why would you insert yourself into their lives uninvited at all? Can't you find some drama in your own life to keep you busy, and leave these people alone? The gall, the unmitigated gall Have you read my reply to Lady? It's on this page, it describes why I am involved in all of this...
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Post by Lisa on Feb 26, 2009 18:37:59 GMT -6
Why would you insert yourself into their lives uninvited at all? Can't you find some drama in your own life to keep you busy, and leave these people alone? The gall, the unmitigated gall Have you read my reply to Lady? It's on this page, it describes why I am involved in all of this... No, it doesn't. Not really. It explains why you think you're involved in all of this. IMO, there's nothing special or compassionate about you. You're a murder groupie. Btw, I have a better idea about what you should do with those letters. You should bundle them up, tie them up with a pretty blue ribbon, then gently, lovingly place them in a pretty hat box. Then shove the hat box where the sun doesn't shine.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 18:51:16 GMT -6
Have you read my reply to Lady? It's on this page, it describes why I am involved in all of this... No, it doesn't. Not really. It explains why you think you're involved in all of this. IMO, there's nothing special or compassionate about you. You're a murder groupie. Btw, I have a better idea about what you should do with those letters. You should bundle them up, tie them up with a pretty blue ribbon, then gently, lovingly place them in a pretty hat box. Then shove the hat box where the sun doesn't shine. Good advice Lisa. I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, I could have said the things I have typed BUT I think I might have gotten a suspension. JBS I don't know how you can hold your temper so well. somebody, I have said it before but you don't listen. STFU
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 18:55:23 GMT -6
Have you read my reply to Lady? It's on this page, it describes why I am involved in all of this... No, it doesn't. Not really. It explains why you think you're involved in all of this. IMO, there's nothing special or compassionate about you. You're a murder groupie. Btw, I have a better idea about what you should do with those letters. You should bundle them up, tie them up with a pretty blue ribbon, then gently, lovingly place them in a pretty hat box. Then shove the hat box where the sun doesn't shine. Never said that there was something special or compassionate about me. Just told my story which was as honest and insecure as I could possible be. And if these MVS would do that with this particular letter, than it's up to them to do so.
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Feb 26, 2009 18:57:48 GMT -6
somebody, dont go away mad...Just go away.
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