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Post by somebody on Feb 25, 2009 20:12:34 GMT -6
Are here anti's you like? You just don't listen and you don't read any farther than the first point you don't agree with. Here is a thread (without calling you personally a name) that expresses my point. It is past pro vs. anti. Then I will disagree. First, we are not going to agree on the DP. We can agree to disagree. This means the discussion of DP vs. LWOP is tabled. Second, the children of the condemned are considered by the court and jury. Any defense lawyer worth their salt will parade the family out, show photos, videos; provide testimony, expert witnesses, etc. to show the value the guilty may still have in their children's lives. Now, having said that, I do not agree with the use of the condemned's families as a ploy to save their wretched hides. They did not consider their families when they committed the crime. They most likely have not had any positive involvement up to this point and then they will shamelessly use their children much like they used the victims. The children, to a certain extent, become victims as well and they truly are innocent bystanders. The remaining parent and attorneys will use these innocent bystanders and then justify this act in the name of saving a life. The children are used a pawns; plan and simple. In my point of view, if you use children as a means to and end in this situation then you fit the same mold as those that would use children as a means to and end in ANY situation. [/quote Exactly. You wrote: "The children, to a certain extent, become victims as well and they truly are innocent bystanders." I agree with that!
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 25, 2009 20:20:32 GMT -6
I never really called you a name, but I said I thought you were nuts. Why does that bother you, if you believe in what you believe in? I think anyone is a little off if they think the murderer's family is going to go through the same thing that the victim's family did and that murderous or any type of violent parent is worth visiting. Sorry you take that personal but that's how I feel. However, why should that stop you from stating an opinion if you stand by it? I have been called many things here. I was attacked by a person once for posting a link on how victims families felt. I wish the mildest thing I had been called was a nut. Maybe sometimes it bothered me a little at first but after awhile I just learned to let things roll off my back. Many here including many antis don't apprecriate putting victims and executed inmates on the same level as well as victims families and death row inmates families. There is nothing the same about it, period. Yes, the inmate's family goes through grief but they also have time to prepare and they get years to visit if they want and the hope that the inmate may be commuted. If the inmate is executed it's not the same way the victim died. Does the victim's family get to do any of this? Not only do they have to deal with the shock of what happened to their loved one (which at time can be quite gruesome) they also have to plan for a funeral within days. Yet you write to one or don't you think it should be that severe? Just how many prisons have you worked in? Many act as if keeping them locked up is an easy thing to do. Maybe you should read some stories of what correctional officers have to go through. We have some who post right at this site. I have never met one who felt sorry for a murder. Also, if prison seems harsh it seems the same antis always have to bring up treating inmates like humans. After all, they are human. They say keep them locked up but at the same time make it a good life for them. Well thanks for the flowers but you have to realize that this is a sensitative subject and things get pretty heated here. And what do you mean there are no nuts we all get pretty nutty at times. Have you ever read some of the goofy comments? For all I know I could get voted president if Felix had his way about it.
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Post by somebody on Feb 25, 2009 20:29:56 GMT -6
I don't like you being called many things as well... Of course I know about the huge difference between the heinous death of a victim and the death of a murderer. But I still cannot see the need to chose for the dp when there is lwop as well. Me writing to one was a very naive choice when I was 18 years old. I would never chose for that again. I do know about correctional officers who chose for lwop instead of dp... I realize that this is a sensitive subject. I try to be gentle. :-)
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Post by Californian on Feb 25, 2009 21:07:55 GMT -6
Why not just "go gently into the night" then? You know what kind of board you're posting on by the name alone. Your posts won't change any minds; surely you understand that? If so, what, then, is your purpose for being here? Has it occurred to you, as it should have by now, that you're unwelcome? Your posts have demonstrably caused anger and grief among innocent victims of crime who have suffered the ultimate loss through the actions of the animals to whom you provide aid and comfort. Frankly, you strike me as rather cruel.
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 25, 2009 21:49:35 GMT -6
I have to tell you, it doesn't really bother me. It may have a little at first, but when I read some of the stories of families that lost their loved one to murder, I realized my life was pretty good. If that is the worse thing I have to go through here, I can handle it. Of course I have gone through my share of sadness in life, so being called a name here is nothing. If I think something is out of line I report it, if a moderator thinks it's bad enough they delete it or if not they leave it. And I manage to get on with life. Because some people are so dangerous even behind bars. Inmates have murdered in prison even on death row. Look it up if you don't believe me. You can stop writing. It's a choice. That's their opinion but not all feel that way. Sometimes it's hard to be gentle when a person thinks another is way off. This is a pro board and many pros don't have the warm fuzzies for murderers as well as many antis here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 23:09:39 GMT -6
Some people think that if a parent murdered and ends up behind bars for how ever long that a child of that parent needs to visit that parent. Please tell me how this benefits the child. To me a child doesn't need that in his or her life. Opinions please. I think it is dependant on the relationship before hand. Sometimes it is the convicted murderer who was the primary caregiver before the murder and imprisonment. The child does need to know what has happened and see what has happened to the parent. If a child had a good relationship with parent before hand then they should still continue to see them because of the bond already formed. If the child did not know the parent or saw them infrequently then I don't think it is appropriate for the child to visit. My sister is involved in a prison ministry and she said that some of the inmates families express frustration when an inmate in prison refuses to see them.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 26, 2009 2:17:09 GMT -6
One word Storm. Love.
Just because a parent murders doesnt mean that the relationship between parent and child is going to end. What if the murder was a drunken brawl, a silly neglegent car accident. Even Muder one? Are you suggesting that a child shouldnt see their parent just because they killed someone? If the circumstances are in the best interests of the child, i.e poverty, abused by the said parent etc then yes, it would be in the best interest for that child to be separated from that parent, but not in anyother case.
They are still that childs parent regardless. What if its the otherway around, say the child kills, would you then cut yourself off from that child who needs your support, love and help?
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Post by Felix2 on Feb 26, 2009 4:10:12 GMT -6
One word Storm. Love. Just because a parent murders doesnt mean that the relationship between parent and child is going to end. What if the murder was a drunken brawl, a silly neglegent car accident. Even Muder one? Are you suggesting that a child shouldnt see their parent just because they killed someone? If the circumstances are in the best interests of the child, i.e poverty, abused by the said parent etc then yes, it would be in the best interest for that child to be separated from that parent, but not in anyother case. They are still that childs parent regardless. What if its the otherway around, say the child kills, would you then cut yourself off from that child who needs your support, love and help? This is not an excuse for murder but I watched a program on the nazi atrocities in the camops against Jewish people last night. What prompted the program was the finding of a nazi officers diary including photos that recorded their socail activities outside of work at the time of these exterminations. One researched remarked that she felt guilty for seeing them as normal people on the basis of what was recorded. An American professor of holocaust studies remarked the same thing and said what he found most difficult was accepting the possibility that such individuals who were guilty of such heinous acts and behaviour were so much like ourselves. We are all capable or at least have the potential given the right setting. He added he understood it was a thought that seemed abhorrent to many, but he himself could not escape it. An interesting hour I thought.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 4:46:52 GMT -6
Hi Felix, Thank you for sharing this story. I will share one too: a team of investigators asked people from the street if they would help them with their research and earn money for it. Those persons had to sit in a room with a button. The scientists explained that in the other room there was somebody trapped on a chair with electricity, that the button was connected to the chair and that every time the button was pushed, the other person would feel electricity through his/her body. The scientist then started to tell the person from the street to push the button. The screams of the other person could be heard. All this was fake (there was no electricity, the other one was an actor) but the person from the street didn't know. He was told that the last push could even kill the other one. The question was: how will normal people react when they receive the same kind kind of orders as the nazi soldiers once received? Will we use our own judgment or listen to the orders to keep on torturing? I don't know the exact percentages but most of those persons listened to the orders and "tortured" the other one until the last push on the button (which could kill the other one), while the actor screamed and begged to be spared... And although this is not an excuse for murder, I believe that many of us are indeed capable or at least have the potention to at least torture - and probably murder - another human being given the right setting...
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Post by Felix2 on Feb 26, 2009 4:50:04 GMT -6
Hi Felix, Thank you for sharing this story. I will share one too: a team of investigators asked people from the street if they would help them with their research and earn money for it. Those persons had to sit in a room with a button. The scientists explained that in the other room there was somebody trapped on a chair with electricity, that the button was connected to the chair and that every time the button was pushed, the other person would feel electricity through his/her body. The scientist then started to tell the person from the street to push the button. The screams of the other person could be heard. All this was fake (there was no electricity, the other one was an actor) but the person from the street didn't know. He was told that the last push could even kill the other one. The question was: how will normal people react when they receive the same kind kind of orders as the nazi soldiers once received? Will we use our own judgment or listen to the orders to keep on torturing? I don't know the exact percentages but most of those persons listened to the orders and "tortured" the other one until the last push on the button (which could kill the other one), while the actor screamed and begged to be spared... And although this is not an excuse for murder, I believe that many of us are indeed capable or at least have the potention to at least torture - and probably murder - another human being given the right setting... I think the above is a very uncomfortable truth for most people. I dotn find it easy reading myself, but I imagine that if I was trying to support the death penalty for such offenders it would be harder for me to acknowledge because what does the acceptance of such a possibility have to say about the way we judge others and the harshness of the penalties we apply. I know this topic will be controversial to some people but its honest.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 5:06:36 GMT -6
Hi Felix,
I looked it up (I want to be at least punctual when it comes to this controversial study).
The outcome was (I copied this): "Dr. Thomas Blass of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County performed a meta-analysis on the results of repeated performances of the experiment. He found that the percentage of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages remains remarkably constant, 61–66 percent, regardless of time or place."
The experiment can be found at Wikipedia. It's named "Milgram experiment". I don't know how to post a link here but this will do.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 26, 2009 5:11:14 GMT -6
Heres a good book that i suggested Nils read when he started that thread about a moral dilemme. Its called "Their Darkest Hour" people tested to the extreme in WW11" By Larence Rees.
Its a brilliant book because it looks at the way what were supposedly (Normal) people acted once in a position of military responsibility. Many were ordinary people like US Bomber crews, British Grenadier Guards, Japanese troops in Nankin. Concentration camp guards and Russian troops. Some police too. All interviewed were mass murderers in one or another and none said they felt remorse because what they did at that time in those circumstances called for their own personal beliefs and hatreds to come out. Its truely an amazing book because all the interviews were after the war sometimes decades and still apart from one German, none had any regrets. they all did what they thought was right at the time.
Nobody truly knows how they would react. My own personal experience was in a night attack, i was a cook, i was pertified and i am not afraid to admit that during the firefight i pissed my pants. Everything goes out the window. All you think about is yourself , your mates and getting through it unscathed if possible, it lasted less then five minutes but it felt like an eternity. No one of our troops were killed but we took out at least 30 to 40 Iraqies. I was a cook but a soldier first. I dont know how many i killed but i know i did kill. It was them or us, they lost. Not long afterwards i found a quiet little spot and cried like a baby for about 5 minutes. I still have nightmares but i dont lose sleep anymore. I thought i would never experience a firefight. I didnt know how i would react. Its a brilliant book. I suggest you read it. The japanese camokazy pilot is still ridden with guilt at his failiure, the SS camp guard is ridden with guilt at what he did and feels eternal shame. Some feel nothing and put it down to war.
the truth is no one knows until they are in that life threatening position or in a position of absolute power. Until then none of you apart from David, myself and a couple of others know how they would feel or react. What saved me was training and discipline and the almost bizzar feeling of self preservation. Read the book its fab.
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Post by Felix2 on Feb 26, 2009 5:12:04 GMT -6
Hi Felix, I looked it up (I want to be at least punctual when it comes to this controversial study). The outcome was (I copied this): "Dr. Thomas Blass of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County performed a meta-analysis on the results of repeated performances of the experiment. He found that the percentage of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages remains remarkably constant, 61–66 percent, regardless of time or place." The experiment can be found at Wikipedia. It's named "Milgram experiment". I don't know how to post a link here but this will do. I am aware of such studies, but wonder if stormy is? I think there is no escaping soem of the possible conclusions with regard to the way we dispose of serious cases.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 26, 2009 5:13:57 GMT -6
I really must remember that spell check, sorry guys.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 5:28:05 GMT -6
Heres a good book that i suggested Nils read when he started that thread about a moral dilemme. Its called "Their Darkest Hour" people tested to the extreme in WW11" By Larence Rees. Its a brilliant book because it looks at the way what were supposedly (Normal) people acted once in a position of military responsibility. Many were ordinary people like US Bomber crews, British Grenadier Guards, Japanese troops in Nankin. Concentration camp guards and Russian troops. Some police too. All interviewed were mass murderers in one or another and none said they felt remorse because what they did at that time in those circumstances called for their own personal beliefs and hatreds to come out. Its truely an amazing book because all the interviews were after the war sometimes decades and still apart from one German, none had any regrets. they all did what they thought was right at the time. Nobody truly knows how they would react. My own personal experience was in a night attack, i was a cook, i was pertified and i am not afraid to admit that during the firefight i pissed my pants. Everything goes out the window. All you think about is yourself , your mates and getting through it unscathed if possible, it lasted less then five minutes but it felt like an eternity. No one of our troops were killed but we took out at least 30 to 40 Iraqies. I was a cook but a soldier first. I dont know how many i killed but i know i did kill. It was them or us, they lost. Not long afterwards i found a quiet little spot and cried like a baby for about 5 minutes. I still have nightmares but i dont lose sleep anymore. I thought i would never experience a firefight. I didnt know how i would react. Its a brilliant book. I suggest you read it. The japanese camokazy pilot is still ridden with guilt at his failiure, the SS camp guard is ridden with guilt at what he did and feels eternal shame. Some feel nothing and put it down to war. the truth is no one knows until they are in that life threatening position or in a position of absolute power. Until then none of you apart from David, myself and a couple of others know how they would feel or react. What saved me was training and discipline and the almost bizzar feeling of self preservation. Read the book its fab. Thank you for your story, your honesty and the mentioning of this book! I will definatelly read it...
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 5:39:39 GMT -6
Hi Felix, I looked it up (I want to be at least punctual when it comes to this controversial study). The outcome was (I copied this): "Dr. Thomas Blass of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County performed a meta-analysis on the results of repeated performances of the experiment. He found that the percentage of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages remains remarkably constant, 61–66 percent, regardless of time or place." The experiment can be found at Wikipedia. It's named "Milgram experiment". I don't know how to post a link here but this will do. I am aware of such studies, but wonder if stormy is? I think there is no escaping soem of the possible conclusions with regard to the way we dispose of serious cases. I know. I don't know how I manage to discuss the dp over here anymore... I once, more than two years ago, made the huge mistake by mentioning that I am writing with a dr-inmate because I wanted to give them another story from a pen pal. I am not the "he is so nice and good" kind of person at all. I hate him for what he has done, went to the graveyard to pay my respect to the victim and help him to talk about his remorse. As a therapist I work with children who are victims of crimes adults committed. I wanted to show them that, despite the differences, there are pen pals who care. But I made a mistake. It's too painful over here to mention this. More than two years later I thought I could come over here again and discuss the dp but I cannot. They remember. So, I think I should stop anyway. Do you agree? And, just because I'm curious, do you think you can change anybody's opinion according the dp over here?
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 5:41:10 GMT -6
I really must remember that spell check, sorry guys. As long as we can understand each other it's fine, right? I am making English mistakes all the time myself...
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Post by Felix2 on Feb 26, 2009 6:03:04 GMT -6
I am aware of such studies, but wonder if stormy is? I think there is no escaping soem of the possible conclusions with regard to the way we dispose of serious cases. I know. I don't know how I manage to discuss the dp over here anymore... I once, more than two years ago, made the huge mistake by mentioning that I am writing with a dr-inmate because I wanted to give them another story from a pen pal. I am not the "he is so nice and good" kind of person at all. I hate him for what he has done, went to the graveyard to pay my respect to the victim and help him to talk about his remorse. As a therapist I work with children who are victims of crimes adults committed. I wanted to show them that, despite the differences, there are pen pals who care. But I made a mistake. It's too painful over here to mention this. More than two years later I thought I could come over here again and discuss the dp but I cannot. They remember. So, I think I should stop anyway. Do you agree? And, just because I'm curious, do you think you can change anybody's opinion according the dp over here? I think you should stay until such time as you feel you wish to leave. I think it is unrealistic to expect to be accepted too quickly. When I first came here it was guns and sparks but even Joe P loves me now! He just wont admit it!
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 26, 2009 6:38:01 GMT -6
Are here anti's you like? I would say that he appears to respect Lady, who by the way lives up to her screen name and she's an anti. It seems Kay has answered the question for me. Thank you Kay. It appears you have no rebuttal for my argument - pity. In my point of view, if you use children as a means to and end in this situation then you fit the same mold as those that would use children as a means to and end in ANY situation. I also wrote this In my point of view, if you use children as a means to and end in this situation then you fit the same mold as those that would use children as a means to and end in ANY situation. Please don't cherry pick my writings and answer the question. Would you use children an instrument to prevent the DP and attain LWOP? Simple question - yes or no.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 7:43:35 GMT -6
Hi Subsurfcpo,
You wrote: "Please don't cherry pick my writings and answer the question. Would you use children an instrument to prevent the DP and attain LWOP? Simple question - yes or no."
My answer: "No. I don't like using children as an instrument in whatever situation. But some of them, maybe even most of them, will miss their fathers after an execution and since there are so many feelings involved already, why not think about theirs as well and consider chosing lwop instead of the dp? And although I know about the "but the murderer could escape" argument and agree that money should be used and efforts should be made to make prisons more safe as they are now, I think that feelings of children, the ones society should help when parents cannot (a fact in these particular situations because the murderer is no longer a member of society anymore and cannot provide his children for whatever they need) can be involved in decisions as well. You will probably say that I do want to use children as an instrument because of this. I say that I am thinking about what we can do to protect and help those vulnerable members of society as well... Maybe the dp is the best solution for some of them. Maybe it is not. We could look at it, right? That's all I am trying to say.
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 7:45:56 GMT -6
Hi Subsurfcpo, You wrote: "This is the comparison of DP advocates to heartless test subjects and Nazis. Now there is a real leap of faith based on conjecture." My answer: "My post was a reply to Felix and he mentioned Nazi's. Of course I am not comparing the dp with the nazi regime. This experiment was about the bad side in human beings in general."
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 7:49:11 GMT -6
Hi Subsurfcpo, You wrote: "I do have another question. In you writings you state you visited the grave of the victim and if I have misunderstood this I apologize; however, if you did indeed come to this country to visit a grave, then did you not learn anything about the people that live here and how our system of government works? I have traveled the world extensively and I always make it a point to learn about my host country. I do not always agree with them, but I understand how they got to where they are." My answer: "I have traveled extensively as well and I agree that it is important to learn about my host country. I still visit the U.S.A. on a regular base and because I don't understand the dp I try to understand it by discussing it over here... Thank you for apologizing and for your efforts to ask questions in a polite way... :-)
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 7:51:25 GMT -6
I know. I don't know how I manage to discuss the dp over here anymore... I once, more than two years ago, made the huge mistake by mentioning that I am writing with a dr-inmate because I wanted to give them another story from a pen pal. I am not the "he is so nice and good" kind of person at all. I hate him for what he has done, went to the graveyard to pay my respect to the victim and help him to talk about his remorse. As a therapist I work with children who are victims of crimes adults committed. I wanted to show them that, despite the differences, there are pen pals who care. But I made a mistake. It's too painful over here to mention this. More than two years later I thought I could come over here again and discuss the dp but I cannot. They remember. So, I think I should stop anyway. Do you agree? And, just because I'm curious, do you think you can change anybody's opinion according the dp over here? I think you should stay until such time as you feel you wish to leave. I think it is unrealistic to expect to be accepted too quickly. When I first came here it was guns and sparks but even Joe P loves me now! He just wont admit it! Maybe I try some more? I don't expect to be accepted, I think I never will, I just hope the namecalling will stop, that's all. Great that even Joe P loves you!
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Lady
Old Hand
Member of the Month - 9/08
I may live in Ohio but my heart belongs to the blue and the gold !
Posts: 659
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Post by Lady on Feb 26, 2009 7:57:33 GMT -6
I am aware of such studies, but wonder if stormy is? I think there is no escaping soem of the possible conclusions with regard to the way we dispose of serious cases. I know. I don't know how I manage to discuss the dp over here anymore... I once, more than two years ago, made the huge mistake by mentioning that I am writing with a dr-inmate because I wanted to give them another story from a pen pal. I am not the "he is so nice and good" kind of person at all. I hate him for what he has done, went to the graveyard to pay my respect to the victim and help him to talk about his remorse. As a therapist I work with children who are victims of crimes adults committed. I wanted to show them that, despite the differences, there are pen pals who care. But I made a mistake. It's too painful over here to mention this. More than two years later I thought I could come over here again and discuss the dp but I cannot. They remember. So, I think I should stop anyway. Do you agree? And, just because I'm curious, do you think you can change anybody's opinion according the dp over here? I know this has been asked before and if you answered it I apologize for asking again . If you hate what he did so much why do you continue to write to him ? How can you justify writing and supporting this person when you have stated time and time again that you hate what he did ? Do you not realize how that comes across on this board ? If not , I will do my best to enlighten you . Its one thing if you are writing to a dr inmate you are related to ,or if you knew the DR inmate before they committed the crime that landed them there , but you are writing to them to encourage them , support them and that is much much more than the victim gets . That is what angers people here ,especially those who are MVS . I am assuming since you claimed to visit the gravesite of the victim , then you must of visited the inmate as well ,since you came from overseas to do so . I am sure you didn't travel all that way just to visit a grave site .How nice of you to remember the victim ! {sarcasm incerted here } So you visited a grave site , imagine being that victims family , thats all they get to visit , is a grave site . The victim family can't write letters to their loved one , all they can do is visit a grave site . The victims family can't talk to their loved one , once again all they can do is talk to them at a grave site . The victims family doesn't have years and years to say goodbye to their loved one ,their goodbye was rather abrupt ,and once again said at a grave site . Your inmate gets friendship , letters ,phone calls ,visits ,commessary ,TV ,Radio , a bed to sleep in ,and 3 meals a day .Heck DR inmates can ever get married in prison and all that involves . { I won't go into that here ,out of respect} The accomidations may not be hotel quality ,but ya have to admit it is much better then being in a dirt bed .{ No disrespect intended here ,just stating fact .} YOUR INMATE IS BREATHING AND THE VICTIM IS NOT .....WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT THE INMATE HAS IT BETTER THAN THE VICTIM AT THIS POINT . Edited to add one final thought , you can't pick who you are related to , but you can pick your friends .Think about it Just my two cents .
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Post by somebody on Feb 26, 2009 8:17:14 GMT -6
Thanks Lady, for your reply. I don't have time to answer it so I will print it out and come back to it later. I will answer though. You've asked good questions... Thanks! :-)
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 26, 2009 8:48:14 GMT -6
Hi Subsurfcpo, You wrote: "Please don't cherry pick my writings and answer the question. Would you use children an instrument to prevent the DP and attain LWOP? Simple question - yes or no." My answer: "No. I don't like using children as an instrument in whatever situation. But some of them, maybe even most of them, will miss their fathers after an execution and since there are so many feelings involved already, why not think about theirs as well and consider chosing lwop instead of the dp? And although I know about the "but the murderer could escape" argument and agree that money should be used and efforts should be made to make prisons more safe as they are now, I think that feelings of children, the ones society should help when parents cannot (a fact in these particular situations because the murderer is no longer a member of society anymore and cannot provide his children for whatever they need) can be involved in decisions as well. You will probably say that I do want to use children as an instrument because of this. I say that I am thinking about what we can do to protect and help those vulnerable members of society as well... Maybe the dp is the best solution for some of them. Maybe it is not. We could look at it, right? That's all I am trying to say. My answer in two parts: 1) The children are considered. My earlier post (somewhere on another thread) stated this as well. They are paraded around the court and used to sway the jury towards LWOP. LWOP is and always will be an option. It is your argument that it is not, the facts prove otherwise it is. LWOP is always an option. It is not always chosen; that is your real point of contention. 2) This comment will be very harsh. If you would use the children as a means to and end, then I feel your moral compass is off. Using children for political gain is wrong regardless of the "good intentions". Hi Subsurfcpo, You wrote: "This is the comparison of DP advocates to heartless test subjects and Nazis. Now there is a real leap of faith based on conjecture." My answer: "My post was a reply to Felix and he mentioned Nazi's. Of course I am not comparing the dp with the nazi regime. This experiment was about the bad side in human beings in general." My point precisely, neither you nor Felix cannot mention the Nazis and expect a pass from me. You did not confront or disagree with the comment, but continued the discussion. It is my conclusion that you would equate the two. Hi Subsurfcpo, You wrote: "I do have another question. In you writings you state you visited the grave of the victim and if I have misunderstood this I apologize; however, if you did indeed come to this country to visit a grave, then did you not learn anything about the people that live here and how our system of government works? I have traveled the world extensively and I always make it a point to learn about my host country. I do not always agree with them, but I understand how they got to where they are." My answer: "I have traveled extensively as well and I agree that it is important to learn about my host country. I still visit the U.S.A. on a regular base and because I don't understand the dp I try to understand it by discussing it over here... Thank you for apologizing and for your efforts to ask questions in a polite way... :-) Let me be as tactful as I possibly can. The apology was only for the possibility of misquoting you, nothing more, and nothing less. Second of all, I am not being polite; I am being terse - huge difference. Finally, it seems to me that you are not trying to understand, but rather trying to convert. If you were trying to understand then this thread would have ended days ago. Please understand this, I am pro-DP; I will not change. I did arrive at this decision quickly or without a great deal of thought. I will not change my position without the same due diligence. I am not cavalier in my approach to my values, and like many here do not appreciate challenges to those values. Because I am reticent to change, I reciprocate to those with an opposing point of view. We discuss, but we do not challenge those values.
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Post by Californian on Feb 26, 2009 9:02:01 GMT -6
It appears you have no rebuttal for my argument - pity. Nor mine. Ditto. Scumpals hate logic, apparently.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 26, 2009 9:18:03 GMT -6
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 26, 2009 9:37:33 GMT -6
I wonder how loving a parent they are if they break into homes and stab and rob people. Are we to believe he only does this to other people but he's nice to his family?
They may murder but they're a great parent!
Every child needs a parent who is a drunk.
A silly neglegent accident? Do you consider drinking and driving silly?
Again if they're so great why aren't they home with their beloved children?
In all probability yes, because I would probably be scared of them.
Don't forget that murder happens within families. What if a child sees their mom or dad kill the other spouse or one of their siblings and they want to see the parent who did this, should they?
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 26, 2009 9:46:14 GMT -6
But here's the best part - the Milgram experiment
This experiment was lampooned in the first Ghost Busters movie - classic.
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