Question about DP and Murder

[frog]

Hello everybody.

I'm a student from Europe doing some research on the DP debates in the US. I already read some threads and pages here and I have a question concerning the DP as a form of justice, as many who support DP phrase it.

If DP is to punish a murderer for the crime committed, wouldn't that mean that each person killing somebody must be punished and executed?
(maybe excluding cases of people being killed rather accidentally)

I admit that I do not support DP, but right now I just try to understand different arguments (pro and contra). And reading some texts on this website I wondered if you do support DP in any case of murder and thus would support more executions.

Compared to the murders committed in the US there are very few executions and I would like to know what people definitely supporting DP think about that.

Thank you very much.

[josephdphillips]

It is to our collective shame that we don't execute all murderers. We used to.

[Donnie]

frog said:

If DP is to punish a murderer for the crime committed, wouldn't that mean that each person killing somebody must be punished and executed?

All murderers should be executed. However, there are many types of killing that are not murder. For example, self defense or killing in defense of others. Another example is unintentional killing.

[frog]

Thanks for answering.

What I would like to know: How would you justify or explain an expansion of DP on murder in general? What political, religious, philosophical, or whatever ideas do support your position?


I think sometimes it is hard enough to decide upon whether somebody is guilty or not. It will be even harder to judge whether a killing was murder or some form of defense. At least somebody who has the intention to kill somebody else could arrange it as a form of self defense. Nevertheless it was murder. How can one be sure about judging?

That is what I wonder about DP anyway. There have been, there are and there will be innocent people executed - something I think is intolerable. There are cases of mentally retarded people being executed, whereas sometimes their confessions are questionable. There are just so many possibilities that the DP system does not work. So I am afraid expanding DP will be even more problematic...

[Felix2]

frog said:

Thanks for answering.

What I would like to know: How would you justify or explain an expansion of DP on murder in general? What political, religious, philosophical, or whatever ideas do support your position?


I think sometimes it is hard enough to decide upon whether somebody is guilty or not. It will be even harder to judge whether a killing was murder or some form of defense. At least somebody who has the intention to kill somebody else could arrange it as a form of self defense. Nevertheless it was murder. How can one be sure about judging?

That is what I wonder about DP anyway. There have been, there are and there will be innocent people executed - something I think is intolerable. There are cases of mentally retarded people being executed, whereas sometimes their confessions are questionable. There are just so many possibilities that the DP system does not work. So I am afraid expanding DP will be even more problematic...

Consideing the law onyl changed recently regarding execution the mentally handicapped, yes, there were cases where they were executed, and texas whined a lot and had to do the decent thing against their will. When you understand how easily such folk cas be led I dotn doubt there has been soem absolute atrocities.

[Felix2]

josephdphillips said:

It is to our collective shame that we don't execute all murderers. We used to.

Of course that is not the real issue by any means, you will never be able to carry out this wish with the problematic way convictions take place in the first instance. Your fellow countrymen are simply not confident that onyl the guilty are being convicted Joe, and you and other like you have failed to convince them or concerns yourselves enough with that concern to prevent the situation that is now existing where confidence ion the death penalty is eroding seriously.

[josephdphillips]

frog said:

Thanks for answering. What I would like to know: How would you justify or explain an expansion of DP on murder in general? What political, religious, philosophical, or whatever ideas do support your position? I think sometimes it is hard enough to decide upon whether somebody is guilty or not. It will be even harder to judge whether a killing was murder or some form of defense. At least somebody who has the intention to kill somebody else could arrange it as a form of self defense. Nevertheless it was murder. How can one be sure about judging? That is what I wonder about DP anyway. There have been, there are and there will be innocent people executed - something I think is intolerable. There are cases of mentally retarded people being executed, whereas sometimes their confessions are questionable. There are just so many possibilities that the DP system does not work. So I am afraid expanding DP will be even more problematic...

This is sophistry. The judicial process is a human enterprise, and innocents pay the price of an imperfect judicial process every day. Any desire for a just and orderly society requires its population to compromise its impossible ideals and accept a certain amount of risk.

If the death penalty is the correct punishment for murder, it doesn't matter how often it's imposed, how executions are carried out or whether or not the condemned are perfectly guilty.

Such perfection and assurance is neither possible or desirable.

[frog]

This is sophistry.

I don't consider anything about murder, killing, capital crime or capital punishment as sophistry. But maybe you just mean I talk about what you consider to be minor details. Well I think these details matter. Details always matter.

The judicial process is a human enterprise, and innocents pay the price of an imperfect judicial process every day.

Yeah of course most systems are created by humans and thus there is imperfection and often this includes innocents paying prices. But just because it is so, one does not have to accept or support it. Especially when it is about life and death. I think one cannot handle the issue so easily and say it's just the system and it just happens. It is done.

If the death penalty is the correct punishment for murder, it doesn't matter how often it's imposed, how executions are carried out or whether or not the condemned are perfectly guilty.

I just don't get your idea of justice behind this.
The question of guilt is central to punishment, so how can you say it doesn't matter? It seems like you want punishment no matter what, so it doesn't matter much whether the punished it the guilty one or just the condemned one.

Well I don't consider DP as the correct punishment for murder so maybe I just cannot understand your position on the frequency and method of executions and especially not on innocence and guilt.

But at least these are some interesting insights into some positions of pro-DP.

Such perfection and assurance is neither possible or desirable.

I agree that it is most likely not possible, but I consider it desirable. I think a society's system that becomes indifferent to life and death of its members is dangerous.

I read in some threads that many DP supporters say the US DP system works well. Especially if somebody who was at death row and who then is found not guilty is set free. This is often read as proof of the system working well.

Of course it is good if somebody who has not committed the crime is not punished and investigation starts again to hopefully find the real criminal. And it is good that the US DP system allows exoneration.

However, in most cases it is not the system or people working for the system who find the evidence for innocence. It is lawyers, journalists, students, activists - if the innocent can afford a lawyer and if people are interested in investigating.

Of course somebody condemned who is claiming innocence might nevertheless be guilty. And also, after s/he is condemned further investigation is questionable (at least the decision should be the right one).
So I am not saying - investigate further whenever somebody claims innocence. I'm just trying to say that exonerations from death row are not really an argument supporting the DP system working well.


But maybe for you these are just minor details and thus some more sophistry.

[josephdphillips]

frog said:

I don't consider anything about murder, killing, capital crime or capital punishment as sophistry.

You are sophist in declaring an opposition to capital punishment because innocents may die, when you would not support it if only the truly guilty were executed.

frog said:

But maybe you just mean I talk about what you consider to be minor details. Well I think these details matter. Details always matter.

Details do not matter in the debate about capital punishment. It's a moral issue. You're either for it or against it.

In your case you are against it, and would not change your mind if the details about the execution process were different.

frog said:

I think one cannot handle the issue so easily and say it's just the system and it just happens. It is done.

Most people do handle the issue easily. Most people accept the negligible risk of innocents being executed. There isn't a pro who loses sleep over it, because there are more important things to worry about.

frog said:

The question of guilt is central to punishment, so how can you say it doesn't matter?

The pursuit of ultimate truth doesn't matter. Justice is impossible if one only accepts absolute certainty of guilt.

frog said:

It seems like you want punishment no matter what, so it doesn't matter much whether the punished it the guilty one or just the condemned one.

No, I simply want all convicted murderers executed. The government kills innocent people every day. People accept that risk and go on in their daily lives. That is why people accept the risk of executees later being found to be factually innocent. No one who supports the death penalty loses sleep over it.

frog said:

I agree that it is most likely not possible, but I consider it desirable. I think a society's system that becomes indifferent to life and death of its members is dangerous.

Justice delayed is justice denied. Punishment is meaningless if there's never any finality to the judicial process.

Why not just come out and admit that no one is truly responsible for his/her act of murder? Isn't that what you truly believe?

[Kay]

Frog, if you wish to debate, please join the board, this section is for student requests only.

Thank you.

[frog]

You are sophist in declaring an opposition to capital punishment because innocents may die, when you would not support it if only the truly guilty were executed.

Okay, I at least understand your point now. I don't agree, but I understand it.

You're either for it or against it. In your case you are against it, and would not change your mind if the details about the execution process were different.

You're right.
And I just like to think about details, even if discussing them would not change my opinion.

Why not just come out and admit that no one is truly responsible for his/her act of murder? Isn't that what you truly believe?

No, that's not what I believe. I believe in punishment of crime and responsibility of criminals. It's just the details of punishment and different positions on punishment and DP I like to think and talk about.

Of course one could say one is either for or against DP. I nevertheless see different positions on each side. And these are the details I am interested in my studies right now. I need to think about some of the details - that there is a pro and a con to DP just isn't enough for my purposes.

Frog, if you wish to debate, please join the board, this section is for student requests only.

Well, these were student requests.

I think I understand the different positions which are discussed in DP debates regularly and also in this forum, thus I'll use my time for some more reading and thinking about the details. Maybe I'll come back for some more debating.
But thanks anyhow.

[Kay]

Hi Frog,

I hope you do join us, best of luck with your project