The "Unfairly applied" arguement

[Erin]

Hi - I am writing a paper (pro-Death penalty) and am having trouble finding info and statistics to knock down one arguement. On the arguement that the death penalty is unfairly applied, (specifically how blacks are more likely to be sentenced to death if the victim is white).
Does anyone have any onfo to share or any links or websites that might help me with this? Or is there a thread I didn't see?
Any help or advice would be very appreciated!
Thanks in advance!!!!!

[Lisa]

From 1976-2005 blacks committed 52.2% of all homicides. Whites committed 45.8% of all homicides. Racial disparity was even greater for "felony murders," which are murders that qualify for the death penalty. They are murders that occur during the commission of another felony (burglary, robbery, sexual assault, kidnapping, etc.). Blacks committed 59.3% of all "felony murders." Whites committed 39.1% of all "felony murders." Here's the link. Scroll to the bottom of the page where the tables are located.

www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Definition of "felony murder:"

research.lawyers.com/glossary/felony-murder.html

Executions by race in the U.S. since 1976:

57% white
34% black
7% Hispanic
2% Other

Number of Victims refers to the victims in the underlying murder in cases where an execution has occurred since the restoration of the death penalty in 1976. There are more victims than executions because some cases involve more than one victim.

Black victims........228..........14%
White victims....1,301..........79%
Hispanic "..............83............5%
Other.....................36............2%

Current Death Row Population:

Black................1,397............41.7%
White...............1,517............45.3%
Hispanic..............359............10.7%
Other....................77..............2.3%

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=184&scid=

Population (2000 census):

White...............75.1%
Black................12.9%
Hispanic...........12.5%

I realize this adds up to a little more than 100% which doesn't make sense but I got these figures from the U.S. Census Bureau:

www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-4.pdf
www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-5.pdf
www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-3.pdf

[josephdphillips]

pdp0143 said:

Black victims........228..........14%
White victims....1,301..........79%

Nice work, Lisa. Confirms what I've been saying al along. If you're a black murderer killing a black person, as most of the black murderers do, you're given a pass.

[Donnie]

Erin said:

Hi - I am writing a paper (pro-Death penalty) and am having trouble finding info and statistics to knock down one arguement. On the arguement that the death penalty is unfairly applied, (specifically how blacks are more likely to be sentenced to death if the victim is white).

The murderer chooses the victim, not the prosecutor or the courts. There are three statistical variations related to murder and race. One is very large, one is small and one is tiny. The three statistical variations are:

1. the numbers of white victims killed by black murderers, compared with the numbers of black victims killed by white murderers.
2. the numbers of white murderers executed, compared to the number of black murderers executed, based on numbers of murders committed by each group of murderers, and
3. the number of black murderers executed for killing white victims compared to the number of white murderers executed for murdering black victims.

As to fairness, which is more important?
Fairness in the way various murderers are treated compared to each other
OR
Fairness in the way various murderers are treated compared to how the murderers treated their victims.

[Lisa]

Only 10% of all murders are "felony murders" or "capital murders" that qualify for the death penalty.

[Deleted]

Yes, according to Dudley Sharp, renowned Pro spokesperson, felony murders (those that might be death eligible) account for 10% of all murders.

Following are figures from the Federal Bureau of Investigations:

Total Murders in 1999: 13,011
Felony Type Total: 2,215 ~ Other than Felony Total: 6,880 ~ Unknown: 3,851
17% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 53% are non-felony murders. 30% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2000: 13,230
Felony Type Total: 2,229 ~ Other than Felony Total: 6,871 ~ Unknown: 4,070
16.8% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 52% are non-felony murders. 31% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2001: 14,061
Felony Type Total: 2,360 ~ Other than Felony Total: 7,073 ~ Unknown: 4,552
16.7% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 50% are non-felony murders. 32% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2002: 14,263
Felony Type Total: 2,340 ~ Other than Felony Total: 7,185 ~ Unknown: 4,672
16.4% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 50% are non-felony murders. 33% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2003: 14,408
Felony Type Total: 2,359 ~ Other than Felony Total: 7,070 ~ Unknown: 4,891
16.3% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 49% are non-felony murders. 34% are unknown.

www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm

[Lisa]

wonderwoman said:

Yes, according to Dudley Sharp, renowned Pro spokesperson, felony murders (those that might be death eligible) account for 10% of all murders.

Following are figures from the Federal Bureau of Investigations:

Total Murders in 1999: 13,011
Felony Type Total: 2,215 ~ Other than Felony Total: 6,880 ~ Unknown: 3,851
17% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 53% are non-felony murders. 30% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2000: 13,230
Felony Type Total: 2,229 ~ Other than Felony Total: 6,871 ~ Unknown: 4,070
16.8% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 52% are non-felony murders. 31% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2001: 14,061
Felony Type Total: 2,360 ~ Other than Felony Total: 7,073 ~ Unknown: 4,552
16.7% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 50% are non-felony murders. 32% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2002: 14,263
Felony Type Total: 2,340 ~ Other than Felony Total: 7,185 ~ Unknown: 4,672
16.4% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 50% are non-felony murders. 33% are unknown.

Total Murders in 2003: 14,408
Felony Type Total: 2,359 ~ Other than Felony Total: 7,070 ~ Unknown: 4,891
16.3% of all murders are felony (or Capital) murders. 49% are non-felony murders. 34% are unknown.

www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm

Since those are the total number of murders (determined by the number of murdered victims), those figures would not take into consideration multiple victims murdered by a single murderer.

[iamjumbo]

only the very stupidest of imbeciles is dumb enough to try and say that there is any racial disparity in the death penalty. to an extent, it was true a hundred years ago, but it's been false for the past forty.

[Deleted]

In 2005, 4% of all homicides involved 2 victims, 6% involved 3 victims, 1% involved 4 victims, 0.5% involved 5 or more victims.

The proportion of homicides involving multiple offenders was 20.3%

www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/overview.htm

[Deleted]

iamjumbo said:

only the very stupidest of imbeciles is dumb enough to try and say that there is any racial disparity in the death penalty. to an extent, it was true a hundred years ago, but it's been false for the past forty.

Black victims account for more than half of all murdered victims.

Executed murderers were killed for killing:

Black victims........228..........14%
White victims....1,301..........79%

I agree with Joe.

[Ariel]

wonderwoman said:

iamjumbo said:

only the very stupidest of imbeciles is dumb enough to try and say that there is any racial disparity in the death penalty. to an extent, it was true a hundred years ago, but it's been false for the past forty.

Black victims account for more than half of all murdered victims.

Executed murderers were killed for killing:

Black victims........228..........14%
White victims....1,301..........79%

I agree with Joe.

So does that mean that, like him, you're actually an anti?

[Lisa]

wonderwoman said:

In 2005, 4% of all homicides involved 2 victims, 6% involved 3 victims, 1% involved 4 victims, 0.5% involved 5 or more victims.

The proportion of homicides involving multiple offenders was 20.3%

www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/overview.htm

It still could very well be that only 10% of all murderers qualify for the death penalty because of "multiple victim" murders. Makes sense to me.

Also, another thing to think about is that black MVS support the death penalty less than white MVS. Prosecutors usually won't seek the DP if the MVS are against it. I know they do occasionally but usually they don't. Even if a prosecutor decides to go for the DP in spite of what the MVS want, the jurors will usually side with the MVS.

[Rev. Agave]

Erin said:

Hi - I am writing a paper (pro-Death penalty) and am having trouble finding info and statistics to knock down one arguement. On the arguement that the death penalty is unfairly applied, (specifically how blacks are more likely to be sentenced to death if the victim is white).
Does anyone have any onfo to share or any links or websites that might help me with this? Or is there a thread I didn't see?
Any help or advice would be very appreciated!
Thanks in advance!!!!!

Erin, I would not waste my time playing into your opponents' hand by talking about statistics. All you must do to shoot down their argument is to counter that the DP should be mandatory for all murders. Simple as that. The DP can be a challenging issue to debate, so best not get bogged down in numbers that have no bearing on the moral rectitude of capital punishment.

[iamjumbo]

pdp0143 said:

wonderwoman said:

In 2005, 4% of all homicides involved 2 victims, 6% involved 3 victims, 1% involved 4 victims, 0.5% involved 5 or more victims.

The proportion of homicides involving multiple offenders was 20.3%

www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/overview.htm

It still could very well be that only 10% of all murderers qualify for the death penalty because of "multiple victim" murders. Makes sense to me.

Also, another thing to think about is that black MVS support the death penalty less than white MVS. Prosecutors usually won't seek the DP if the MVS are against it. I know they do occasionally but usually they don't. Even if a prosecutor decides to go for the DP in spite of what the MVS want, the jurors will usually side with the MVS.

and that is wrong. an mvs is obviously not emotionally stable enough to oppose the death penalty for the murderer. of course, the simple fact that they would do something like that proves the point

[Erin]

this has ALL been so helpful, i really appreciate it!

[Lisa]

Erin said:

this has ALL been so helpful, i really appreciate it!

Please let us hear from you again. We almost never get feedback from students who are working on debates, speeches, papers, etc. It would be nice to hear about your grades and about the comments made by your teachers or professors.

[Deleted]

pdp0143 said:

wonderwoman said:

In 2005, 4% of all homicides involved 2 victims, 6% involved 3 victims, 1% involved 4 victims, 0.5% involved 5 or more victims.

The proportion of homicides involving multiple offenders was 20.3%

www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/overview.htm

It still could very well be that only 10% of all murderers qualify for the death penalty because of "multiple victim" murders. Makes sense to me.

Also, another thing to think about is that black MVS support the death penalty less than white MVS. Prosecutors usually won't seek the DP if the MVS are against it. I know they do occasionally but usually they don't. Even if a prosecutor decides to go for the DP in spite of what the MVS want, the jurors will usually side with the MVS.

Yes, possibly. However, so too would the multiple murderers qualify for DP, which would raise the number back up. And, whether prosecutors go after DP has nothing to do with the statistics of which murders *might* be death eligible.

What makes you say that black MVS support DP less than do white MVS? ~~ Are you saying that's why more white victims are represented by executed murderers than are black? Is there some data about it, as I've not heard this argument before?

[Deleted]

iamjumbo said:

pdp0143 said:

It still could very well be that only 10% of all murderers qualify for the death penalty because of "multiple victim" murders. Makes sense to me.

Also, another thing to think about is that black MVS support the death penalty less than white MVS. Prosecutors usually won't seek the DP if the MVS are against it. I know they do occasionally but usually they don't. Even if a prosecutor decides to go for the DP in spite of what the MVS want, the jurors will usually side with the MVS.

and that is wrong. an mvs is obviously not emotionally stable enough to oppose the death penalty for the murderer. of course, the simple fact that they would do something like that proves the point

So, it's only *right* to hear from those MVS who want the death penalty and are therefore usable to the state's end?

[Lisa]

wonderwoman said:

pdp0143 said:

It still could very well be that only 10% of all murderers qualify for the death penalty because of "multiple victim" murders. Makes sense to me.

Also, another thing to think about is that black MVS support the death penalty less than white MVS. Prosecutors usually won't seek the DP if the MVS are against it. I know they do occasionally but usually they don't. Even if a prosecutor decides to go for the DP in spite of what the MVS want, the jurors will usually side with the MVS.

Yes, possibly. However, so too would the multiple murderers qualify for DP, which would raise the number back up. And, whether prosecutors go after DP has nothing to do with the statistics of which murders *might* be death eligible.

What makes you say that black MVS support DP less than do white MVS? ~~ Are you saying that's why more white victims are represented by executed murderers than are black? Is there some data about it, as I've not heard this argument before?

I'm confused, I guess (not unusual) so all I could do was raise one eyebrow in response to your first paragraph. I don't get it. What I was saying is...say 17% of all murders qualify for the death penalty... It could be that only 10% of murderers qualify for the death penalty because there weren't as many murderers as victims.

The second paragraph...I've never looked for data but it's something I heard from another MVS on this board. I don't want to name her because, well I just don't. I honestly don't know if the data exists somewhere or not but I'll see if I can find anything. If not, I'll concede the point.

[Lisa]

I'm finding university studies that contain information about blacks who murder blacks and why they're less likely to receive the DP that might have this information, but it takes $10 to access the documents. Let me think about that for a second. No.

[Deleted]

pdp0143 said:

wonderwoman said:

Yes, possibly. However, so too would the multiple murderers qualify for DP, which would raise the number back up. And, whether prosecutors go after DP has nothing to do with the statistics of which murders *might* be death eligible.

What makes you say that black MVS support DP less than do white MVS? ~~ Are you saying that's why more white victims are represented by executed murderers than are black? Is there some data about it, as I've not heard this argument before?

I'm confused, I guess (not unusual) so all I could do was raise one eyebrow in response to your first paragraph. I don't get it. What I was saying is...say 17% of all murders qualify for the death penalty... It could be that only 10% of murderers qualify for the death penalty because there weren't as many murderers as victims.

Sorry for the confusion, Lisa. I’ll try harder to be more clear what I’m thinking...

Going with the numbers I pulled from

www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm let’s look at 1999.

Total Murders: 13,011
Murders involving 2 victims = 4% or 520
Murders involving 3 victims = 6% or 781
Murders involving 4 victims = 1% or 130
Murders involving 5 victims = 0.5% or 65
That’s a total of 1496

Murders involving multiple offenders = 20% or 2602

“Few homicides involve multiple offenders and fewer involve
multiple victims. The percentage of homicides involving multiple
offenders increased dramatically in the late 1980's and early
1990's, increasing from 10% in 1976 to 16% in 1997. The
percentage of homicides involving multiple victims increased
gradually during the last two decades from just under 3% of all
homicides to 4% in 1997.”

www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/htiuscdb.txt

~ OR ~ (if we use the percentages from this report)

Murders involving multiple victims = 4% or 520
Murders involving multiple offenders = 16% or 2082

So, what I’m saying is that for each murderer who killed more than one murder victim there are many more murderers who share in the culpability of murdering a single victim. Therefore, the 17% (death eligible murders) would hardly be brought down by multiple murder victims/single murderer. Indeed, it might be brought up by those murder victims who were killed by more than one offender. That's why I'm calling it a wash.

Dunno if that’s clearer ~ it’s looking a lot like mud to me

What I don’t get is the number of murders classified as “UNKNOWN” ~~ how many of those *might* be death eligible?

And, of course, the fact is, 66% of murders go unprosecuted… the murderers never caught.

The second paragraph...I've never looked for data but it's something I heard from another MVS on this board. I don't want to name her because, well I just don't. I honestly don't know if the data exists somewhere or not but I'll see if I can find anything. If not, I'll concede the point.

Actually, since a higher percentage of blacks oppose DP than do whites, I imagine that at least some black MVS would. We cannot know however how many are even given the choice to voice an opinion.

[Lisa]

wonderwoman said:

Dunno if that’s clearer ~ it’s looking a lot like mud to me

Same here. I guess I could try to figure it out but pssst....everybody's starting to laugh at us. They're saying "There goes those crazy old women again with their stupid numbers."

I don't care what they say. I don't know about you but I won't apologize for making their eyes glaze over. For two people who hate math, I think we do pretty well. So there.

[iamjumbo]

wonderwoman said:

iamjumbo said:

and that is wrong. an mvs is obviously not emotionally stable enough to oppose the death penalty for the murderer. of course, the simple fact that they would do something like that proves the point

So, it's only *right* to hear from those MVS who want the death penalty and are therefore usable to the state's end?

pretty much, since they're demonstrating that they ARE able to make a rational decision

[Lisa]

iamjumbo said:

wonderwoman said:

So, it's only *right* to hear from those MVS who want the death penalty and are therefore usable to the state's end?

pretty much, since they're demonstrating that they ARE able to make a rational decision

I keep trying to come up with a possible foundation for your arrogance, Jumbo. I haven't come up with any possibilities yet.

[josephdphillips]

pdp0143 said:

I keep trying to come up with a possible foundation for your arrogance, Jumbo. I haven't come up with any possibilities yet.

He's just another angry cripple, Lisa. Pay it no mind.

[Kay]

Please restrict posts in this section to student issues and questions, thank you.

[iamjumbo]

pdp0143 said:

iamjumbo said:

pretty much, since they're demonstrating that they ARE able to make a rational decision

I keep trying to come up with a possible foundation for your arrogance, Jumbo. I haven't come up with any possibilities yet.

what arrogance? the truth is the truth. are you going to try and tell me now that if a punk murdered your family member, you would not want him dead? the fact is that, to NOT want him dead is, by definition, irrational

[Lisa]

iamjumbo said:

pdp0143 said:

I keep trying to come up with a possible foundation for your arrogance, Jumbo. I haven't come up with any possibilities yet.

what arrogance? the truth is the truth. are you going to try and tell me now that if a punk murdered your family member, you would not want him dead? the fact is that, to NOT want him dead is, by definition, irrational

I would but I don't speak for everyone, especially those who HAVE had a family member murdered.

[Kay]

Jumbo,

If you're arrogant enough to wish to debate the topic of MVS rationality, please take it to the main board.

[Donnie]

wonderwoman said:

Actually, since a higher percentage of blacks oppose DP than do whites, I imagine that at least some black MVS would. We cannot know however how many are even given the choice to voice an opinion.

How would you know that any are not given a choice to voice an opinion? Why would any have to be "given" a choice to voice an opinion? Everyone has a right to voice an opinion.