most victim famlies are against dp?

[Brooks]

In my death penalty class at portland state university, a very liberal school, I feel like the teacher is one sided and teaching her views to abolish the DP. There is nothing wrong with this, but she always talks about human rights and how other countries are abolishing dp and we are not talking about what the victims opinion is. Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it. After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=573&scid=62

[crappieboy]

Is running a stop sign ok? Dumb analogy. But it is against the law. Too bad your idealistic instructor doesn't teach both sides and let the class decide. We have an idea how we feel about the dp, but untill murder reaches out and touches you in a personal way one doesn't know fully how they will react, they might think they do, but they don't. Look at survivors of 911, as an example, the media has to search before they find one that is ok. But even those haven't looked at the big picture. If you look back in the US Life without Parole is not always so. The law changes, look back to the 70s, murderers get released, they get out for good behavior, because some gov. decides to let them out, legislators decide prisons are over crowded. They are afraid to charge more taxes for new prisons. Lots of variables come into play as time passes. The instructor failed to mention in most of those countries that don't have the DP, it's not because the general public doesn't want it. In order to be included in the EU they have to agree to do away with the DP. They agree for economic reasons that are held out to them and they need that more. As a murder victim survivor, I won't be able to continue my life as before, it is justice, not revenge. The murderer has a conscious decision to make. A jury of their peers makes the next desiscion, and it is not a light one when the go for the dp. I've been running this maze for 10 years.

[RickZ]

Brooks said:

In my death penalty class at portland state university, a very liberal school,

An understatement!

I feel like the teacher is one sided and teaching her views to abolish the DP.

Bring it up to school administrators, not that anything is likely to change in the classroom. But one must speak out against one-sided teachers.

There is nothing wrong with this,

Yes there is. The person's a teacher, and supposed to be teaching all sides of an argument.

but she always talks about human rights and how other countries are abolishing dp and we are not talking about what the victims opinion is.

What about the human rights, much less the civil rights, of murder victims?

Is the DP reconciliation for victims?

For some it might be.

This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP,

So justice is an invalid concept? How about the danger to the rest of society these murderers represent?

I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it. After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.

How can a murder victim be for or against the death penalty? They are dead.

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=573&scid=62

That is an anti-dp site which seeks the abolition of the death penalty. Try a little more research.

[Charlene]

I know many victims families whose perpetrator has been executed, and many more who are still waiting. I can tell you that every single one of them who have already had the killer executed was relieved when it finally happened and expressed feelings of closure and justice. The web site you list is very anti-death penalty, as is your teacher, and nothing else can be expected from the site but to speak about victims who oppose the death penalty. But from my experience of over 12 years involvement with this issue, most victim families support the death penalty, strongly.

[lawdog]

Brooks said:

Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it.

The victims are dead. If you mean the surviving family members, the vast majority do support the death penalty. Regardless, it is not the only reason to support the death penalty. The majority of people in the US support the death penalty. One thing you should be aware of is that those who actively advocate for the abolishment of the death penalty are chronic liars. They routinely lie about the guilt of the murderer. They lie about the unfairness of the legal system. They down play the horror of the murderers crimes. Google the case opinions and read the facts of the crimes. Read the histories of the murderers. Yes, executing them is justice. Life is prison for these people is injustice.

Many of the links on this site contain statements by the family members of the murdered victim at the time of the execution:

www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm

[josephdphillips]

admin said:

I know many victims families whose perpetrator has been executed, and many more who are still waiting. I can tell you that every single one of them who have already had the killer executed was relieved when it finally happened and expressed feelings of closure and justice. The web site you list is very anti-death penalty, as is your teacher, and nothing else can be expected from the site but to speak about victims who oppose the death penalty. But from my experience of over 12 years involvement with this issue, most victim families support the death penalty, strongly.

That's good enough for me, Charlene. Thank you.

[Felix2]

lawdog said:

Brooks said:

Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it.

The victims are dead. If you mean the surviving family members, the vast majority do support the death penalty. Regardless, it is not the only reason to support the death penalty. The majority of people in the US support the death penalty. One thing you should be aware of is that those who actively advocate for the abolishment of the death penalty are chronic liars. They routinely lie about the guilt of the murderer. They lie about the unfairness of the legal system. They down play the horror of the murderers crimes. Google the case opinions and read the facts of the crimes. Read the histories of the murderers. Yes, executing them is justice. Life is prison for these people is injustice.

Many of the links on this site contain statements by the family members of the murdered victim at the time of the execution:

www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm

Please, please please, if your view of those of us who are anti is formed by the CCADP board, then you really need to look a little more critically and think more reflectively and realise that fringe extremes dont represent the collective. There are pro's and there are rabid pro's, anti as I am, I am able and do distinguish between the two. I urge you to do yourself a favour, stop being hysterical and extend the same courtesy to the other side of the debate.

[Felix2]

josephdphillips said:

admin said:

I know many victims families whose perpetrator has been executed, and many more who are still waiting. I can tell you that every single one of them who have already had the killer executed was relieved when it finally happened and expressed feelings of closure and justice. The web site you list is very anti-death penalty, as is your teacher, and nothing else can be expected from the site but to speak about victims who oppose the death penalty. But from my experience of over 12 years involvement with this issue, most victim families support the death penalty, strongly.

That's good enough for me, Charlene. Thank you.

and with the added bonus that you did'nt have to think for yourself?

[LEGAL EAGLE]

FELIX, YOU ARE WRONG ONLY THE DEATH PENALTY CAN BRING CLOSURE, THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD CLEAR THE WAY FOR THE LETHAL INJECTION TO BE UPHELD AS CONSTITUTIONAL ONCE AND FOR ALL. IT IS TIME CALIFORNIA CLEARED IT'S DEATHROW BACKLOG SO MVS FAMILIES CAN GET SOLCA AND RETRIBUTION. WHO KNOWS, MAYBE ONE DAY IRELAND WILL REINSTATE THIS UNIQUE PUNISHMENT. IT HAS NOT CARRIED OUT AN EXECUTION SINCE 1954. UNLIKE TEXAS WHICH IS A CREDIT TO THE US JUSTICE SYSTEM.

Houston & Texas




May 24, 2006, 11:56AM
South Texas man to be executed for drug-related slayings


Associated Press

HUNTSVILLE — Condemned killer Jesus Ledesma Aguilar admits he was a drug dealer who smuggled marijuana from his South Texas home to Mississippi.

But he denies murdering his ex-partner's sister and her husband nearly 11 years ago in a Harlingen-area mobile home because of a drug dispute.

"I had nothing to do with this. I was at home" at the time of the killings, he said. "These people they railroaded me left and right."

But unknown to Aguilar at the time of the slayings, the 9-year-old son of the victims watched from underneath a kitchen table as his parents, Leonardo Chavez Sr., 33, and his wife Annette, 31, were shot execution-style.

Aguilar was set to be executed Wednesday night in Huntsville — one of two men convicted for the June 10, 1995, drug-related slayings of the Chavez couple.

He would be the 10th prisoner put to death this year in Texas and the third of three this month in the nation's busiest capital punishment state.

Aguilar's attorneys have asked the U.S. Supreme Court to block his execution, claiming he was not given a chance to challenge information used at his trial from an alleged accomplice.

Prosecutors said Aguilar, 42, killed Annette Chavez while his nephew, Christopher Quiroz, killed her husband. Aguilar was sentenced to death while Quiroz got life in prison at separate trials.

According to court records, Aguilar and Annette Chavez's brother, Rick Esparza, were friends who started smuggling marijuana in November 1994 from their homes in South Texas to Mississippi. After Esparza began smuggling drugs for another supplier, Aguilar threatened to kill him if he didn't stop.

While Esparza and his wife delivered a load of drugs to Mississippi in June 1995, his sister and her family agreed to stay and watch his home.

Aguilar and his nephew spent most of the afternoon and evening of June 9, 1995, drinking. They then paid a visit to Esparza's mobile home early the next morning, when they killed the Chavez couple, according to prosecutors.

Authorities said Aguilar was a member of the Texas Syndicate, a prison gang, and had a violent history, including wounding a Lubbock County police officer during a 1983 shooting and assaulting guards and other inmates while in the state prison system.

Leonardo Chavez Jr. testified at the trials of both Aguilar and Quiroz that he saw the men kill his parents. His younger brother was asleep in another room.

At the trials, the boy, now 20 years old, told jurors he was awakened at 5 a.m. by a loud noise. He went into the kitchen and saw his parents on the floor. His father was holding a napkin to his bleeding nose. He then watched as his parents were shot in the head.

"I know it affects him still," said Nicolas I. Chavez Jr., brother of Leonardo Chavez Sr. and the boy's uncle. "He tries to see life in a positive way and tries to keep going."

Aguilar, however, said Leonardo Chavez Jr. was "coached" to say he saw the condemned inmate and his nephew kill the Chavez couple.

"They're killing me for something they know they lied about," he said.

Nicolas Chavez, 52, who plans on attending the execution, said he forgives Aguilar for the slayings but the retired Texas prison system guard said he will never forget that the condemned inmate "destroyed" his family.

"If I could tell Aguilar something, I would show him a portrait of my brother's family and say, 'This is the family you destroyed. You destroyed these children's lives. They are orphans because of you,'" he said.

ONCE THIS SENTENCE IS CARRIED OUT NICOLAS CHAVEZ WILL GET TRUE CLOSURE. FELIX YOU NEED TO READ THE REVEREND IAN PAISLEY'S VIEWS ON THE RESTORATION OF THE DEATH PENALTY BEFORE THERE CAN TRULY BE A "UNITED" IRELAND. THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A TERRORIST'S CHARTER. FOR GOD AND ULSTER.

THE LEGAL EAGLE ;D

[Donnie]

Brooks said:

Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it.

Killing the murderer does not bring justice. But it does sotp the injustice against the victim from increasing. The murderer always comes out ahead. The longer he lives, the greater the injustice. Execution is an appropriate approach to justice, but a merciful execution cannot provide justice.

The murderer After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.

The victims are all dead, so I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Go to this thread to find out how the families of murder victims feel.

prodp.proboards47.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1147472535

[Deleted]

Brooks said:

In my death penalty class at portland state university, a very liberal school, I feel like the teacher is one sided and teaching her views to abolish the DP. There is nothing wrong with this, but she always talks about human rights and how other countries are abolishing dp and we are not talking about what the victims opinion is. Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it. After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=573&scid=62

Hi there,

I'm an MVS (murder victim survivor), as my son, Jim, was murdered almost ten years ago. And, I oppose the death penalty. I'm only offering this as background, to what I'm going to say next.

I believe that most ~ not all ~ most MVS support the death penalty. The reason you can only find sites that offer the opinion of MVS who oppose DP is because they are vocal and wanting to share their experiences, believing (rightly or wrongly) that others and other MVS will benefit from their experiences. Likely you've seen MVFR (Murder Victims For Reconciliation) or Journey of Hope, or a similar site.

Now, my personal belief is that we have no lawful punishment that could come close to 'justice' to what some murderers do. They oftentimes deserve worse than what our system of justice will dole out, IMNHO. I do not believe that the DP ~ or in fact anything ~ brings an end to MVS pain and heartache. We'll live it regardless. The best we can hope for is a sense of peace (which doesn't wind up coming from what the state does to/with the murderer) and joy and memories made that will forever be bittersweet.

My advice: listen to all views, research any major issues on your own (as you're doing here), even your teacher............ and then become your own person. Good luck.

Peace.
Lynne

[killerhater]

The only flaw with the DP is that it is not given enough to these cold blooded murderers!
If and when the murderer does get it, it will not "fix" us, it will not bring "closure" and it can
NEVER stop our grief and pain. But, it will stop the murderer from murdering again!

[Brooks]

thank you very much Lynne, that was very insightful. I hope you don't mind but I am going to use what you have said in my class. The only question I ask is do you think that the man needs to be killed for justice or deterrence. As an outsider who has never had to deal with something tragic like this and just from the teachings from my class, do you think that he should not be killed because sometimes the system catches the wrong people and innocent die.

I guess what I am asking is why do you think he should be killed, or not killed.

[Deleted]

Brooks said:

thank you very much Lynne, that was very insightful. I hope you don't mind but I am going to use what you have said in my class. The only question I ask is do you think that the man needs to be killed for justice or deterrence. As an outsider who has never had to deal with something tragic like this and just from the teachings from my class, do you think that he should not be killed because sometimes the system catches the wrong people and innocent die.

I guess what I am asking is why do you think he should be killed, or not killed.

My own personal belief on these subjects is:

DP is NOT a deterrent, at least not any more-so than is a long imprisonment (I prefer LWOP ~ life without parole). Before a murderer can be deterred, he must first believe he's going to get caught. Last I checked we only catch about 2/3 of them.

Justice? Well, IMNHO, in many instances, we'd have to bring back torture to even partially accomplish that ~ which I'm not condoning. Further, so very few murderers get DP, that a majority of MVS will be left wanting that which they cannot have. With a sentence of DP, the MVS are for many many years tied to the murderer, like it or not. So, no ~ IMO, there can be no perfect justice.

I *think* I already said, but I'll say again I oppose DP, and am in the minority. There are many reasons I came to this..... I guess that my most compelling reason (at least to me) is that I know with certainty that there is a next step beyond this short walk on earth, and I know too that the step between the two is sometimes not insurmountable.

If you want to know about my son, Jim's beliefs ~ he also opposed the death penalty, click on the little house in my space to the left of this.

Good luck with your project, and with all the tough decisions you'll be making soon enough!

Peace.
Lynne

[onetwobomb]

Brooks said:

In my death penalty class at portland state university, a very liberal school, I feel like the teacher is one sided and teaching her views to abolish the DP. There is nothing wrong with this, but she always talks about human rights and how other countries are abolishing dp and we are not talking about what the victims opinion is. Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it. After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=573&scid=62

Not at all. 74% of Americans support the DP, and I can only imagine the percentage of MVSs is much higher. Also about your professor teaching one sided views, that IS wrong. They are supposed to be educating, not pushing their political views.

[Deleted]

Brooks said:

In my death penalty class at portland state university, a very liberal school, I feel like the teacher is one sided and teaching her views to abolish the DP. There is nothing wrong with this, but she always talks about human rights and how other countries are abolishing dp and we are not talking about what the victims opinion is. Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it. After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=573&scid=62

I've been a member of 3 MVS support groups over the years since my daughters murder. Out of the many Survivor families I met in those groups, 3 were anti-DP. So the vast majority are pro DP in my own experience.

[artist formally known as spur]

I’m not a MVS, by the grace of God, however I will do everything in my power to assure that people who kill innocent people will be held accountable and forfeit their right to live in society.

I would prefer that to be construed as they will be successfully eliminated from the human race. If it just means, due to liberal societies inability to administer what is fair, them being secure from our world behind a fence for life.

Make no mistake what I’m saying; if someone kills they deserve to be killed back. It would not hurt my feeling to have LI be excluded as a form of execution and limit it to a choice of electrocution, hanging or gas chamber. I have zero sympathy for those who kill innocent people.

[Sandoval]

Spur, come back man. You made this board cool!

artist said:

I’m not a MVS, by the grace of God, however I will do everything in my power to assure that people who kill innocent people will be held accountable and forfeit their right to live in society.

I would prefer that to be construed as they will be successfully eliminated from the human race. If it just means, due to liberal societies inability to administer what is fair, them being secure from our world behind a fence for life.

Make no mistake what I’m saying; if someone kills they deserve to be killed back. It would not hurt my feeling to have LI be excluded as a form of execution and limit it to a choice of electrocution, hanging or gas chamber. I have zero sympathy for those who kill innocent people.

[josephdphillips]

artist said:

I’m not a MVS, by the grace of God, however I will do everything in my power to assure that people who kill innocent people will be held accountable and forfeit their right to live in society. I would prefer that to be construed as they will be successfully eliminated from the human race. If it just means, due to liberal societies inability to administer what is fair, them being secure from our world behind a fence for life. Make no mistake what I’m saying; if someone kills they deserve to be killed back. It would not hurt my feeling to have LI be excluded as a form of execution and limit it to a choice of electrocution, hanging or gas chamber. I have zero sympathy for those who kill innocent people.

Welcome back, Spur.

[SQ]

felix2 said:

lawdog said:

The victims are dead. If you mean the surviving family members, the vast majority do support the death penalty. Regardless, it is not the only reason to support the death penalty. The majority of people in the US support the death penalty. One thing you should be aware of is that those who actively advocate for the abolishment of the death penalty are chronic liars. They routinely lie about the guilt of the murderer. They lie about the unfairness of the legal system. They down play the horror of the murderers crimes. Google the case opinions and read the facts of the crimes. Read the histories of the murderers. Yes, executing them is justice. Life is prison for these people is injustice.

Many of the links on this site contain statements by the family members of the murdered victim at the time of the execution:

www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm

Please, please please, if your view of those of us who are anti is formed by the CCADP board, then you really need to look a little more critically and think more reflectively and realise that fringe extremes dont represent the collective. There are pro's and there are rabid pro's, anti as I am, I am able and do distinguish between the two. I urge you to do yourself a favour, stop being hysterical and extend the same courtesy to the other side of the debate.

Felix, what do you do to help fight the death penalty besides hang at a pro-dp forum? I'm just curious. Do you write letters? Sign petitions? Demonstrate outside while inmates are being executed?

[Clinton]

SQ said:

felix2 said:

Please, please please, if your view of those of us who are anti is formed by the CCADP board, then you really need to look a little more critically and think more reflectively and realise that fringe extremes dont represent the collective. There are pro's and there are rabid pro's, anti as I am, I am able and do distinguish between the two. I urge you to do yourself a favour, stop being hysterical and extend the same courtesy to the other side of the debate.

Felix, what do you do to help fight the death penalty besides hang at a pro-dp forum? I'm just curious. Do you write letters? Sign petitions? Demonstrate outside while inmates are being executed?

Is it just me or does this post "reek" of FryClown ?

[Clinton Dung]

Memoirs from the grave

Let us reflect to an earlier space in time....a day when Clinton "Dung" was still receiving his one our of a rec a day and his opportunity to shower and consume three square meals....a time where being an Anti was very cut and dry….either you were or you were not……much as today……Felix, SQ has called you out and is “gut Checking” your “Anti-ness”

Qualifications:

1. Of course I can't believe in the death penalty, but that's not the only qualification.

2. I see executions as "morally wrong", meaning if anyone, no matter the crime is executed, I feel like crying. Not necessarily because of that person, but because of the death penalty as a whole.

3. I'm educated on all the arguments, though only one or 2 are the reasons I'm anti, I recognize all the arguments and in no way do I discredit other anti's who argue points that I'm not familiar with or may not agree with, being that by doing so will hinder the abolishment movement.

4. I don't just hang out in pro-dp forums (no, that doesn't mean I have to hang out in anti-dp forums online also. but I'm involved with an anti-dp organization of some sort. Because if I'm an anti, only hanging out in a pro-board, well, I'm really not doing much for the abolishment movement.......now, frequent writing letters/signing petitions/demonstrating against the death penalty can take the place of being involved in said organization)

5. Oooops, gotta add this one. Even if I disagree with writing DR inmates, other antis writing them is the least of my worries being that my main concern is abolishing the death penalty.

Disclaimer: If one does not meet or exceed these qualifications as set forth by said SQ, queen of the CRAPP website, then you are declared to be on the proverbial DP fence.
Sorry folks, I don't make the rules...I just post them after they have been approved by your queen.

[Joey]

Clinton said:

SQ said:

Felix, what do you do to help fight the death penalty besides hang at a pro-dp forum? I'm just curious. Do you write letters? Sign petitions? Demonstrate outside while inmates are being executed?

Is it just me or does this post "reek" of FryClown ?

and this one reeks of one of the funniest guys on here.... get ur as back where it belongs and don't let the ass holes keep u away

[Felix2]

SQ said:

felix2 said:

Please, please please, if your view of those of us who are anti is formed by the CCADP board, then you really need to look a little more critically and think more reflectively and realise that fringe extremes dont represent the collective. There are pro's and there are rabid pro's, anti as I am, I am able and do distinguish between the two. I urge you to do yourself a favour, stop being hysterical and extend the same courtesy to the other side of the debate.

Felix, what do you do to help fight the death penalty besides hang at a pro-dp forum? I'm just curious. Do you write letters? Sign petitions? Demonstrate outside while inmates are being executed?

"You're just curious", BS. You simply want more information because you hope I just might give you something to justify to others having the go at me that you so desperately want to. Mind your own business about what I do and dont do off board. (One of them might be your girlfriend!) ;D ;D ;D ;D

[hannah portre]

i ma sorry but deah is not the answer . can u tell me what the people whos been excuted what their families did. NOTHING absolutly nothing yet we punish them by killing there son or daughter or husband or father or mother. I think all those who are for the death penalty is a murder for condoning the death penalty as right and if u look at i the long term the person being excecuted has had a free pass out of a world were people like the people on this site who think MURDER is the solution to probems that no one can be bothered to solve. Do u think the peple that are excecuted are suffering right now NO but rotting in a jail cell is a better punishment

[Deleted]

hannah said:

i ma sorry but deah is not the answer . can u tell me what the people whos been excuted what their families did. NOTHING absolutly nothing yet we punish them by killing there son or daughter or husband or father or mother. I think all those who are for the death penalty is a murder for condoning the death penalty as right and if u look at i the long term the person being excecuted has had a free pass out of a world were people like the people on this site who think MURDER is the solution to probems that no one can be bothered to solve. Do u think the peple that are excecuted are suffering right now NO but rotting in a jail cell is a better punishment

your comment is kind of funny because everytime antis defend their murderer they refer to his bad childhood, how he was abused by parents, how he suffered and could not develop his senses to know right from wrong, and blah blah.

however when he is sentenced to dead then same abusive parents suddenly become innocent victims, who never ever wanted son become criminal -- i am sometimes impressed at anti's polemic skill, but not very much at their logical skill.

then dead penalty only enforced when there are agravating circumstances - so something more evil than just pull gun, *bang, victim dead. maybe victim raped and tortured, kidnapped or terrorized, finally killed.

so if i have son, or husband, or father who does something like that, immediatley i would want him to suffer dead penalty.

cheers,
phyllis

[Grey]

Sounds like the law teacher I had...

Brooks said:

In my death penalty class at portland state university, a very liberal school, I feel like the teacher is one sided and teaching her views to abolish the DP. There is nothing wrong with this, but she always talks about human rights and how other countries are abolishing dp and we are not talking about what the victims opinion is. Is the DP reconciliation for victims? This would be the only reason I would think we have the DP, I know this is a pro dp site, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Does killing bring justice, does it help them continue their lives, or is it. After doing a little research I can only find victims that are against it.
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=573&scid=62