Costs of DP and Prison for Life

[RW]

I have found so much conflicting statistics about the costs of life in prison and the death penalty. Once and for all, does anyone know which method costs MORE?

I also need a website that critiques the anti-DP point of view.

Thank you!

[Charlene]

Click on the link above on the main page of this board that says Death Penalty Paper for a cost analysis. Also, look around the rest of the site - it is one big resource for everything you need.

Charlene

RW said:

I have found so much conflicting statistics about the costs of life in prison and the death penalty. Once and for all, does anyone know which method costs MORE?

I also need a website that critiques the anti-DP point of view.

Thank you!

[Deleted]

A warden from Texas once told me that the cost to put someone to death by lethal injection is less than $2. Literally.

Sure, the cost to litigate all the appeals prior to the actual execution of the death sentence will cost money and resources of the state and/or federal government. However, make no mistake, if the lawyers involved on both sides of a DP case were not involved in litigating a DR inmate's claims, they would not be out of work. If the courts did not have to hear the DR inmate's appeals, they would not go out of business.

I think you will find, ultimately, the arguments about costliness of DP appeals are a neat little trick using smoke and mirrors which the opposition invented to play on society's sense that the justice should shop around for the least expensive alternative (as if punishment for a crime is just another big ticket item like a refrigerator or an automobile). The argument is illogical, attempting only to tip the scales in favor of the opposition for some theoretic cost-benefit analysis. How do we realistically place a dollar amount on the value of a human life? Certainly there is no way to say what a murder victim is worth, however I will venture a guess for you--the murder victim's life was worth at least as much as the murderer's life, if not more.

Hope you find what you are looking for....good luck!

[anti]

Click on the link above on the main page of this board that says Death Penalty Paper for a cost analysis. Also, look around the rest of the site - it is one big resource for everything you need.

Charlene

You should not use this flawed "calculation". Apart from the fact that it bases on extrapolations of of extrapolations of extrapolations of wild assumptions and wishful thinking, Dudley Sharp misinterpreted one of his sources (TIME magazine): He confused one-time construction costs with annually recurring operational costs (in other words: every inmate gets a brandnew prison cell every year!). I had a discussion with Dudley about that years ago. I even contacted the editor of TIME and they confirmed Dudley misinterpreted their article. Sharp never corrected this mistake, which clearly shows his objective is not scientific accuracy (as he claims), but pro-DP propaganda.

Not surprisingly, the calculation on prodeathpenalty.com is pretty much the only one that ever came to the conclusion the DP is cheaper. It's a completely isolated and unsupported "viewpoint".

For an overview over some studies and reports, see here:
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

[anti]

A warden from Texas once told me that the cost to put someone to death by lethal injection is less than $2. Literally.

That's a false claim. Literally. Even if we disregard legal costs (hundreds of thousands, in extreme cases millions of $$$) and only look at the costs for the execution itself.

The State of Ohio, for example, paid $18,147 overtime for prison employees and $2,250 overtime for State Highway Patrol officers when it executed Wilford Berry. Not to mention those 25 public information officers.

The cost of the drugs used is $86, according to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. Sorry Mr. warden, you're clueless.

[Donnie]

RW said:

Once and for all, does anyone know which method costs MORE?

No, nobody knows.

There are too many variables that are ignored. Some are ignored because they are too difficult to quantify. For example: How do you quantify the costs of additional crimess, including murders that will be committed by those who are sentenced to "LWOP".

Other costs are ignored because those who support "LWOP" don't want people to think about them. For example: If the DP were to be replaced with "LWOP", those who now expend the states resources to prevent executions would begin expending the states resources to reduce "LWOP" sentences. This is already happening in Michigan.

The realities of human nature would eliminate any theoritical savings from replacing the DP with "LWOP". All of the calculations of the alternative costs of "LWOP" ignore many of those realities.

[SkyLoom]

RW said:

I have found so much conflicting statistics about the costs of life in prison and the death penalty. Once and for all, does anyone know which method costs MORE?

I also need a website that critiques the anti-DP point of view.

Thank you!

It depends on the individual state, but it always costs well over a million dollars to try and win a capital case while it costs far less to try and win a non-capital case. Generally, it costs about $20,000 a year to house, guard and feed a prisoner.

Check the Death Penalty Information Center for statistics. Amnesty International and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) also have good information and statistics.

[savage6980]

Read Deathquest II by Robert M. Bohm. It's very accurate and non-biased. Post-Furman capital trials are ALWAYS more expensive than non-capital trials. It's just a fact. I don't think it's a reason to choose between life or death, but it is a fact because of the "super due process" involved in capital cases.

[anti]

Comprehensive information on the cost of New Jersey's DP system (for various other states see end of article):
prodp.proboards47.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=dpnews&thread=1132746319&page=1

[Donnie]

savage6980 said:

Read Deathquest II by Robert M. Bohm. It's very accurate and non-biased. Post-Furman capital trials are ALWAYS more expensive than non-capital trials. It's just a fact. I don't think it's a reason to choose between life or death, but it is a fact because of the "super due process" involved in capital cases.

That is because the anti-DP judicial despots and anti-DP crusaders created a system to make such trials more expensive. Once they abolish the DP, the same extremists will go to work in the same manner on LWOP. They are already doing just that in Michigan. Abolishing the DP will only increase all costs for society associated with murder. That includes the most grevious costs, which are always ignored in monetary cost studies.

[Anon E Mus]

I just want all of you people to know that it's good to have a website where you can argue your oppinion like this. However, I disagree with the death penalty. It doesn't make the victims feel better, only for like 2 seconds after the killer is executed. And in some cases it costs lots more than life in prison. And Canada has had a decrease in murder since they banned the death penalty, and so have many other countries. Other countries don't want to send their prisoners to the US to be tried for fear that the US may execute them. They seem to understand something that the US government doesn't: capital punishment isn't a deterrant. And last, I believe in forgiveness, rehabilitation of prisoners, and giving people who have sinned a second chance. I thank you for reading this message, I know you will probably get mad at me for posting it, and I invite you to shoot down the reasons for which I'm against the death penalty. That's what arguements are for. Thank you.

[ltdc]

Anon said:

I invite you to shoot down the reasons for which I'm against the death penalty. That's what arguements are for. Thank you.

if you've been here long, you will have noticed, but not accepted, the fact that your arguments have been repeatedly shot down.

now shoot this argument down:

people have done time for murder, got out and killed again

people have escaped custody and killed

people have killed while in custody

NOBODY that has been executed has killed again

so give it your best shot, no cost analysis, no emotion, no excuses, just plain undeniable results.

[Big Dane]

Hi, I'll give it a shot... first time here and yeah I'm an euro, so go on and flame me.

1) people have done time for murder, got out and killed again

That's true. But just how were they rehabilitated? I doubt the criminal system in USA even give it a try. Some guys are just too sick to ever be released. They are to be locked up for good. Have you ever worked in the criminal justice system, maybe as a prison guard? I can tell you that 25-to-life is a loooooong time to sit in a prison. It is not exactly a Hilton hotel - just go to florida's D.O.C.'s homepage and watch the pictures inside.

2) people have escaped custody and killed

There is a chance they might do that even when on D.R... so I guess you are saying they should be executed as soon as their trial is over. What about those that might be innocent? Maybe 95% commited the killings, but what about, say, the rest 5%? Think if it were you. Also, in a maximum prison it should not be possible to escape. If anything goes wrong, blame the prisons.

3) people have killed while in custody

I suppose you care less if they kill another inmate - just another defective product sent back eh.. so why bother? I only see the real danger in killing prison guards. Solution: Get more guards and make prisons more secure. When you give a person a death sentence or a life without parole, they become even more desperate to escape as they have nothing to loose.

4) NOBODY that has been executed has killed again

That's true again. But the innocent can't speak... I see it this way: We get one shot at life. Better make the best out of it. No one knows what happens when we die, which is the only thing we are 100% sure of. And I sure hell wouldn't be the guard who pulled the switch after the inmates' last words were something like "I'm innocent, the real killer is out there". What a nightmare to go home with and one that would stick for a long time. Maybe I too could be a murderer?

My opinion on DP:

I were on a vacation some years ago in USA (NY & FLA). Every time I turned the TV on, there was a murder or a rape of some kind. Very disturbing to watch... but think about this. America have the toughest criminal justice system and very long sentences compared to other countries, but still a very high crime rate. But alot of social unjustice. Just like south africa. Maybe that's what happens when 'integration' goes wrong. Also, it's mostly southern states who executes - just like they wanted to keep slavery... it sell votes to be tough on crime for a politician, not to be soft. I bet alot of the regulars here voted a guy for president, who were nearly killed by a salt pretzel. In general, Americans are very religious compared to most europeans. That's where we are so different. When it comes to arrogance (your current president is a great example of that, something Clinton weren't) you are no better than germans. And please don't get me wrong. I hate terrorism. I do watch NFL (go seahawks) and enjoy burgers, so I don't 'hate' all things american. And that won't change. But to uphold morality by executing - that's weak. Even Russia don't need it Over and out.

[ltdc]

Big said:

Hi, I'll give it a shot... first time here and yeah I'm an euro, so go on and flame me.

1) people have done time for murder, got out and killed again

That's true. But just how were they rehabilitated? I doubt the criminal system in USA even give it a try. Some guys are just too sick to ever be released. They are to be locked up for good. Have you ever worked in the criminal justice system, maybe as a prison guard? I can tell you that 25-to-life is a loooooong time to sit in a prison. It is not exactly a Hilton hotel - just go to florida's D.O.C.'s homepage and watch the pictures inside.

2) people have escaped custody and killed

There is a chance they might do that even when on D.R... so I guess you are saying they should be executed as soon as their trial is over. What about those that might be innocent? Maybe 95% commited the killings, but what about, say, the rest 5%? Think if it were you. Also, in a maximum prison it should not be possible to escape. If anything goes wrong, blame the prisons.

3) people have killed while in custody

I suppose you care less if they kill another inmate - just another defective product sent back eh.. so why bother? I only see the real danger in killing prison guards. Solution: Get more guards and make prisons more secure. When you give a person a death sentence or a life without parole, they become even more desperate to escape as they have nothing to loose.

4) NOBODY that has been executed has killed again

That's true again. But the innocent can't speak... I see it this way: We get one shot at life. Better make the best out of it. No one knows what happens when we die, which is the only thing we are 100% sure of. And I sure hell wouldn't be the guard who pulled the switch after the inmates' last words were something like "I'm innocent, the real killer is out there". What a nightmare to go home with and one that would stick for a long time. Maybe I too could be a murderer?

My opinion on DP:

I were on a vacation some years ago in USA (NY & FLA). Every time I turned the TV on, there was a murder or a rape of some kind. Very disturbing to watch... but think about this. America have the toughest criminal justice system and very long sentences compared to other countries, but still a very high crime rate. But alot of social unjustice. Just like south africa. Maybe that's what happens when 'integration' goes wrong. Also, it's mostly southern states who executes - just like they wanted to keep slavery... it sell votes to be tough on crime for a politician, not to be soft. I bet alot of the regulars here voted a guy for president, who were nearly killed by a salt pretzel. In general, Americans are very religious compared to most europeans. That's where we are so different. When it comes to arrogance (your current president is a great example of that, something Clinton weren't) you are no better than germans. And please don't get me wrong. I hate terrorism. I do watch NFL (go seahawks) and enjoy burgers, so I don't 'hate' all things american. And that won't change. But to uphold morality by executing - that's weak. Even Russia don't need it Over and out.

not buying into your atempted shot here.

1) Americas whole system is about rehabilition. when it fails, it fails because the mope in question didn't want to be fixed. and you can't fix people who don't want to be fixed.

yes, I've worked in the system, 25 to life DOES NOT mean life, it doesn't even mean 25 I'm sure prison isn't the Hilton but it's better than Motel 6

2) this isn't about DR, it's about the effectiveness of the actual execution. and your comment about blaming the prison if an escape occurs. yeah sure, that will make a victims funeral more enjoyable to go to.

3) nope, I don't particularly care about murdered inmates. but the point remains, un-executed killers can and do still kill even in custody

4) well, I have "pulled the switch" as you say on someone who never confessed, claimed innocence up to the end. I sleep like a rock, thank you for asking. but you don't know what I know about this guy and his history. and you want to talk about nightmares?
look at my sig line again, remember you don't know this guy like I do, and then you think about the shoulda/woulda/coulda, BUT DIDN"T, then tell her mother why not. I just spoke with her mother last week. and if I wake up on the other side, that you don't know anything about, and find out we were wrong? (I have no worry about that) then ooops, I'll deal with it then.

Your last comment on an opinion about the DP was an opinion about anything but the DP.

and in the end I'm just going to have to disagree with you. it'll be pittsburg