LWOP is more costly than the death penalty

[eu.ro]

You are a monster.

Hmmm, someone who calls himself "Deathstar" seems to be very open-minded and very intelligent as well. By the way, your beautiful calculation about innocent victims is simply stupid. LWOP should mean LWOP, without exception.

You mainly want revenge not justice. Someone who supports legalised murder and also accepts to execute innocent "offenders" should be denied to travel to anywhere abroad, especially Europe! If you are European you should get a one-way ticket to Texas!

Contemptuously

Eurostar

[Deleted]

Eurostar said:

Hmmm, someone who calls himself "Deathstar" seems to be very open-minded and very intelligent as well. By the way, your beautiful calculation about innocent victims is simply stupid. LWOP should mean LWOP, without exception.

But one problem: LWOP almost never means LWOP. There are still appeals and murderers "do" get out to kill again as I said many times before. If the death penalty was abolished and LWOP became the primary sentence for murder, soon, abolitionists will petition that LWOP is "cruel and unusual" and lobby for shorter sentences for murderers. Pretty scarey!


We need the death penalty.

[Thomas]

Well, lifers are currently housed in a lower security prison, that's right. If LWOP would become the sole punishment for 1st degree murder, this would change in a minute.

Please tell me how many felons have escaped from death row since the 1970s. Ahaaa, do you know what I mean?

Eurostar, your depth of knowledge about crime and punishment is truly underwhelming.

Do a little research on Mecklenburg Virginia, 1984. Six death row inmates escaped.

As for housing LWOP inmates in the same security setting as death row inmates? It will never happen. Who is going to pay the billions of dollars necessary to harden the nation's prisons? You? What does happen and will continue to happen is that most LWOP inmates will be housed in a general population setting, giving them ample opportunity to victimize again.

[Deleted]

Guest-Thomas said:

Eurostar, your depth of knowledge about crime and punishment is truly underwhelming.

Do a little research on Mecklenburg Virginia, 1984. Six death row inmates escaped.

As for housing LWOP inmates in the same security setting as death row inmates? It will never happen. Who is going to pay the billions of dollars necessary to harden the nation's prisons? You? What does happen and will continue to happen is that most LWOP inmates will be housed in a general population setting, giving them ample opportunity to victimize again.

Oh, Eurostar.

Besides the expenses that Thomas described, who will pay for medical, dental, psychological, and geriatric care for all the lifers if LWOP became the primary punishment for murder? Who will compensate future victims that they plan on murdering whether while incarcerated or after they escape? Do you have the sufficient funds?

[eu.ro]

Thomas, obviously you didn't understand what I was saying. The percentage of people who escaped from death row is, compared to all the other fugitives, extremely low. Therefore there must be an enormous difference between them and the others.

A prison should be a place of safety. The argument concerning possible jailbreaks is weak. I'd like to add, that this is no reason to put human beings to death. A nation that's able to fly to Mars should also be able to supervise it's felons.

[Thomas]

Eurostar said:

The percentage of people who escaped from death row is, compared to all the other fugitives, extremely low....

A prison should be a place of safety....

And there should be no hungry children in the world and everyone should get along and we should all live happily ever after.

Unfortunately, I live in a real world where very smart and vicious people spend months and years figuring out how to overcome the most sophisticated security systems. As long as there are thinking people in prison, there will never be an escape proof prison. (Remember, this is the real world we are talking about.) Contrary to being weak, the escape argument is a strong argument for the expansion of the death penalty to include more heinous crimes.

I know from personal experience that most prison escapees are in prison on a life or as good as life sentence, (30 years, 50 years, 60 years or so), and usually for very violent offences. Look at the Texas seven escape. For that matter, look at almost every escape. For the most part, it is not the average thief, burglar, or drug user who escapes. (These types wait to be let out and abscond parole.) It is people in on murder, violent sex charges, aggravated robberies, attempted murders, etc.; people who are working their way to death row. We should help them get there sooner by expanding the death penalty.

[eu.ro]

Answer from the real world: There will be escapees as long as there will be prisons. No doubt about that. You want to kill people since this is easier an cheaper for the community? Maybe we should sign a petition to abolish sharks or snakes? Kill 'em all! A world without sharks, snakes or spiders is much easier to handle, a lot safer and therefore a lot cheaper! (Imagine how many people call 999 after snakebites!)

Hey, calm down. I know that you would love to see them being killed with a bread knife .....

[Thomas]

Eurostar said:

Answer from the real world: There will be escapees as long as there will be prisons. No doubt about that. You want to kill people since this is easier an cheaper for the community? Maybe we should sign a petition to abolish sharks or snakes? Kill 'em all! A world without sharks, snakes or spiders is much easier to handle, a lot safer and therefore a lot cheaper! (Imagine how many people call 999 after snakebites!)

Hey, calm down. I know that you would love to see them being killed with a bread knife .....

Typical response. When you cant win on reason, resort to personal attacks. Your comparison of cold blooded, calculating, reasoning, abstract thinking murdererss to sharks, snakes and spiders is childish and merits no argument in response.

[Deleted]

Eurostar said:

Answer from the real world: There will be escapees as long as there will be prisons. No doubt about that. You want to kill people since this is easier an cheaper for the community? Maybe we should sign a petition to abolish sharks or snakes? Kill 'em all! A world without sharks, snakes or spiders is much easier to handle, a lot safer and therefore a lot cheaper! (Imagine how many people call 999 after snakebites!)

You on the other hand want to keep murderers alive so they can murder again and wreck havoc on the community and put citizens' lives in danger, as well as waste tax dollars?

[eu.ro]

Typical response? You don't have arguments, chum. You are sitting on your high death penalty horse, believing that the world stops turning if someone would abolish capital punishment. Your arguments on "unsafe prisons" are ridiculous. Sure, if you don't want to make 'em safe, there's no chance to reach that target. You want to offend me for being an extremist? You are so fixed on your execution and public safety babbling, that it's mainly you who is blindfolded. Come on, tell me something about reasonable alternatives to the dp!

[Thomas]

Eurostar said:

Typical response? You don't have arguments, chum. You are sitting on your high death penalty horse, believing that the world stops turning if someone would abolish capital punishment. Your arguments on "unsafe prisons" are ridiculous. Sure, if you don't want to make 'em safe, there's no chance to reach that target. You want to offend me for being an extremist? You are so fixed on your execution and public safety babbling, that it's mainly you who is blindfolded. Come on, tell me something about reasonable alternatives to the dp!

Proved my point. Can't win on reason so the personal attacks flow like wine. You tell me somthing about reasonable alternatives to the Death Penalty. I haven't heard any yet.

[Thomas]

Eurostar said:

Typical response? You don't have arguments, chum. You are sitting on your high death penalty horse, believing that the world stops turning if someone would abolish capital punishment. Your arguments on "unsafe prisons" are ridiculous. Sure, if you don't want to make 'em safe, there's no chance to reach that target. You want to offend me for being an extremist? You are so fixed on your execution and public safety babbling, that it's mainly you who is blindfolded. Come on, tell me something about reasonable alternatives to the dp!

One other thing. How old are you? I have a hunch but I am curious.

[Deleted]

Guest-Thomas said:

One other thing. How old are you? I have a hunch but I am curious.

Hi Tom, after reading about your occupational hazards, I hope you get paid a decent wage for what you have to go through every day. Eurostar just doesn't seem to get it.

[Deleted]

Guest-Thomas said:

One other thing. How old are you? I have a hunch but I am curious.

Hi Tom, Eurostar acts like your typical teenager. Wonders never cease! ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Eurostar said:

Typical response? You don't have arguments, chum. You are sitting on your high death penalty horse, believing that the world stops turning if someone would abolish capital punishment.

Ok Eurostar: Why don't you visit a prison and maybe try being a prison guard among murderers and rapists for a month like Thomas here, be in constant danger, get assaulted by inmates, and be subject to other sordid acts committed by inmates that I will not get into, then tell us who is on the "high horse?!"

Your arguments on "unsafe prisons" are ridiculous.

Really? What makes "you" the expert?

[Deleted]

Eurostar said:

Maybe we should sign a petition to abolish sharks or snakes? Kill 'em all! A world without sharks, snakes or spiders is much easier to handle, a lot safer and therefore a lot cheaper! (Imagine how many people call 999 after snakebites!)

Rather irrelevant I'd say!!!

[Thomas]

Eurostar said:

Maybe we should sign a petition to abolish sharks or snakes? Kill 'em all! A world without sharks, snakes or spiders is much easier to handle, a lot safer and therefore a lot cheaper!

One other point my young friend. When spiders, snakes or sharks bite, we kill them.

[Deleted]

Guest-Thomas said:

One other point my young friend. When spiders, snakes or sharks bite, we kill them.

In addition: You have a higher risk of dying from being killed by a muderer, than a shark, snake, and "especially" a spider!! You can always just put a spider outside, no harm done to spider nor human.

[eu.ro]

Teenager? Guess!

Well, your "lack of control" topic sounds nice, but it didn't hit the nail on the head. Every "normal" thinking individual would lose control after reading your and your PRO friends posts. Ok, you are working in a prison, I don't. You live in America, I don't have to. Your English is fluent, mine is not. (What makes this conversation sometimes a bit difficult, since I have to translate all these legal terms.)

YOU SAY:

• A person which killed another person for any other reason than accident, should be punished with a sentence of death and should be executed afterwards.
  
  
• This is necessary to insure, that this person will never have the possibility to kill again.
  
  
• The offender has to pay for his crime and a sentence of death is an appropriate sentence.
  
  
• It's important for the victims relatives and friends to get something like a closure. Anyway, to feel better afterwards.
  
  
• The death penalty itself is a deterrent to kill.
  
  
• Some crimes are that unbelieveable, there's no other sentence.
  
  
• LWOP is no alternative to a sentence of death, since lifers could escape from prison, kill another victim or possibly be released one day. (Law's may change)
  
  
• LWOP is too expensive and a waste of the tax payers money.
  
  

I SAY:

• Every killer should be severly punished! They shouldn't be punished with a sentence of death, but LWOP.
  
  
• Every state should reform it's penal code to insure that LWOP means LWOP. (In fact that's a sentence of death without execution!). Clemency can only be granted by the governor, governor & parole board, etc. (The usual death sentence procedure)
  
  
• LWOP prisoners should be treated and incarcerated like death row inmates. (Maximum security, single segregation cell, 23 h lockdown, etc.) This would also help to protect correctional officers. Maybe other security standards have to be developed.
  
  
• Since you will always have the right to appeal a sentence of death, there will always be an incarceration
  period. Therefore you are always in danger that people escape from prison somehow. I also found out, that the percentage of escaped death row offenders, compared to other felons, is much lower. Therefore it seems to be possible to incarcerate someone in a secure way, for a long time.
  
  
• Reliable statistics and studies proof, that the death penalty is no deterrent and that the costs for death penalty cases are much higher, even if you add the costs for a LWOP case and lifetime incarceration.
  
  
• LWOP is much more a deterrent, since you have decades to think about the things you did, without any hope to be released one day. For a young killer (21 at the time of the offense) this could mean about 60 years in prison.
  
  
• The application of the death penalty is cruel and inhumane. No one has the right to kill. Neither the offender, nor the state. Furthermore it's inhumane to incarcerate someone for maybe 10-24 years, just to execute him afterwards. This is psychological torture. (Please read what Kevin Zimmerman from Texas said after his attorneys had told him that he received another stay in December 2003!) The state or the communities we live in, have to furnish the proof that they are morally superior, somewhere above the murderer. This is nearly impossible if you execute someone after 20 years in prison and five prior execution dates.
  
  
• There can't be an appropriate sentence for a killer. There is no appropriate sentence for guys like Timothy McVeigh. Neither imprisonment, nor the death penalty can be something like a compensation for the death of the victims. Imprisonment is the only way to punish the felon, without leaving blood on your hands. I believe that we all will be justified by a higher authority. But even if you are an atheist you should understand that another killing doesn't change anything to the postive, but to the negative. You put someone to death, produce more mourning people and you don't break the cycle of violence and counter-violence.
  
  
• Some people are evil, right! But don't forget that we are all the product of the circumstances we live in. This is extremely obvious if you have a closer look at the death row roster in Texas. Just have a look at the counties these guys come from. Of course that's no excuse for a murder crime, since many others didn't kill, but there seems to be a relationship. Maybe it would make sense to invest money in these people. The only thing you want to buy them is chemicals for a lethal injection, to show that killing is wrong?
  

Yes, and now you will tell me, that it's just the other way round.

[Deleted]

Eurostar said:

Teenager? Guess!

Well, your "lack of control" topic sounds nice, but it didn't hit the nail on the head. Every "normal" thinking individual would lose control after reading your and your PRO friends posts.


You sure? Seems like you do so quite often!


Ok, you are working in a prison, I don't.

Thomas here works in a prison, I work for a financial institution.

You live in America, I don't have to. Your English is fluent, mine is not. (What makes this conversation sometimes a bit difficult, since I have to translate all these legal terms.)

YOU SAY:

• A person which killed another person for any other reason than accident, should be punished with a sentence of death and should be executed afterwards.
  
  Other than an accident or self defense, then yes, they should be sentenced to death and executed afterwards. You are correct!
  
  
• This is necessary to insure, that this person will never have the possibility to kill again.
  
  Which is also true!!
  
  
• The offender has to pay for his crime and a sentence of death is an appropriate sentence.
  
  The death penalty is an appropriate sentence for murderers and rapists. Not for shoplifting, speeding illegal parking or the like.
  
  
• It's important for the victims relatives and friends to get something like a closure. Anyway, to feel better afterwards.
  
  Why not? If you had a loved one murdered? Wouldn't you want closure?
  
  
• The death penalty itself is a deterrent to kill.
  
  True!
  
  
• Some crimes are that unbelieveable, there's no other sentence.
  
  True, and you may want to click on the news more often just to see how brutal some of these murderers are!
  
  
• LWOP is no alternative to a sentence of death, since lifers could escape from prison, kill another victim or possibly be released one day. (Law's may change)
  
  Also true!
  
  
• LWOP is too expensive and a waste of the tax payers money.
  
  True! I don't understand why you want to waste your tax money on murders.
  
  

I SAY:

• Every killer should be severly punished! They shouldn't be punished with a sentence of death, but LWOP.
  
  But LWOP doesn't work.
  
  
• Every state should reform it's penal code to insure that LWOP means LWOP. (In fact that's a sentence of death without execution!). Clemency can only be granted by the governor, governor & parole board, etc. (The usual death sentence procedure)
  
  No:
  
  1. The killer can still kill again. Too many guards and other prison staff are killed on the job due to LWOP! Plus, if the victim's families want the death penalty, that is "their" right and they should demand it. Executing criminals "saves lives."
  
  
  2. Much too costly, and the list could go on and on!
  
  
• LWOP prisoners should be treated and incarcerated like death row inmates. (Maximum security, single segregation cell, 23 h lockdown, etc.) This would also help to protect correctional officers. Maybe other security standards have to be developed.
  
  
• Since you will always have the right to appeal a sentence of death, there will always be an incarceration
  period. Therefore you are always in danger that people escape from prison somehow. I also found out, that the percentage of escaped death row offenders, compared to other felons, is much lower. Therefore it seems to be possible to incarcerate someone in a secure way, for a long time.
  
  Good luck!, What the dangers medical care and dental care providers will face during an inmates lifetime incarceration? Even so, it is impossible to treat LWOP prisoners like death row inmates considering the fact that these inmates will receive medical and dental care, and will not be in their segregation cells 23 hours a day.
  
  
• Reliable statistics and studies proof, that the death penalty is no deterrent and that the costs for death penalty cases are much higher, even if you add the costs for a LWOP case and lifetime incarceration.
  
  How come Mexico has one of the highest crime rates on the planet, and Singapore, one of the lowest if the death penalty is not a detterant?
  
  Also, Washington DC in the US has no death penalty, but the highest violent crime rate in the US! Wyoming, Montana, Idaho have very low crime rates and the death penalty.
  
  As far as costs, sorry those stats are not accurate. What about medical, psychiatric care, dental care, geriatric care, appeals? The average death row inmate spends 7 years before hitting the chamber. With LWOP, there have been cases where prisoners were in prison for 75 years. Day in an day out, taxpayers have to spend tax dollars to house these inmates for this lengthy amount of time alone without the other expenses I described above. Also, if the death penalty was abolished in US, the crime rate will skyrocket. We would constantly have to build prisons, upgrade security, hire staff. No, LWOP is definitely more expensive.
  
  
• LWOP is much more a deterrent, since you have decades to think about the things you did, without any hope to be released one day. For a young killer (21 at the time of the offense) this could mean about 60 years in prison.
  
  Many also have decades and use them think about how they are going to kill again, and many do in prison. Also, see above, if you think the death penalty is expensive, this alone costs much more in both $s and blood!
  
  
  
• The application of the death penalty is cruel and inhumane. No one has the right to kill. Neither the offender, nor the state. Furthermore it's inhumane to incarcerate someone for maybe 10-24 years, just to execute him afterwards. This is psychological torture. (Please read what Kevin Zimmerman from Texas said after his attorneys had told him that he received another stay in December 2003!) The state or the communities we live in, have to furnish the proof that they are morally superior, somewhere above the murderer. This is nearly impossible if you execute someone after 20 years in prison and five prior execution dates.
  
  I guarantee you, the victims of these inmates received "much more" than psychological torture. It was "cruel and inhumane" that these victims suffered torture rape, and their lives were snuffed out before way before their due date.
  
  The State has no right to kill? What do you do if a dog attacks and kills you daughter? You put the dog to sleep because it is too dangerous to be alive. Same idea.
  
  Well looks like Kevin Zimmerman was finally executed on January 21, 2004. Good. Yes, anyone is morally superior to a murderer. If you kill someone, you pay with your own life!
  
  
• There can't be an appropriate sentence for a killer. There is no appropriate sentence for guys like Timothy McVeigh. Neither imprisonment, nor the death penalty can be something like a compensation for the death of the victims. Imprisonment is the only way to punish the felon, without leaving blood on your hands. I believe that we all will be justified by a higher authority. But even if you are an atheist you should understand that another killing doesn't change anything to the postive, but to the negative. You put someone to death, produce more mourning people and you don't break the cycle of violence and counter-violence.
  
  Unfortunately, given the number of lives lost at the hands of Timothy McVeigh, that the death sentence is not enough to compensate his victims. However, it is a much better choice in compensation than LWOP. Unfortunately, not executing criminals does not break the cycle of violence, but sends a message that it is okay to murder. The justice system doesn't work if it doesn't have "teeth." Yes, I want to live in a peacfull society, but unfortunately, this may be impossible.
  
  
• Some people are evil, right! But don't forget that we are all the product of the circumstances we live in. This is extremely obvious if you have a closer look at the death row roster in Texas. Just have a look at the counties these guys come from. Of course that's no excuse for a murder crime, since many others didn't kill, but there seems to be a relationship. Maybe it would make sense to invest money in these people. The only thing you want to buy them is chemicals for a lethal injection, to show that killing is wrong?
  

I have no problems donating funds to charities or the poor: However, murderers are no "charity."

Yes, and now you will tell me, that it's just the other way round.

It is!

[Thomas]

Wow Eurostar, found a button didn't we. I am glad you are not a U.S. national. You cannot effect the DP debate in this country by a vote, if, that is, you are old enough to vote. By the way, you wouldn't have a vote today in your country if not for the U.S. Why don't you focus your attentions on the many problems facing your nation and butt out of ours? Or are you what we call here a "one tune Johnny." Certainly you could be trying to solve the neo-NAZI resergence or or some other social ill in your country.

[eu.ro]

Thomas here works in a prison, I work for a financial institution.

I don't know if this is important to anyone here, but I work as a mathematician and software developer.

True! I don't understand why you want to waste your tax money on murders

I can't stop telling this. Because they are human beings!

The State has no right to kill? What do you do if a dog attacks and kills you daughter? You put the dog to sleep because it is too dangerous to be alive. Same idea.

Hey, hey, hey STOP! We are talking about human beings, not animals. As much as I love them, but this comparison is invalid.

Well looks like Kevin Zimmerman was finally executed on January 21, 2004. Good. Yes, anyone is morally superior to a murderer. If you kill someone, you pay with your own life!

We have to treat human beings like human beings. We have to respect human rights and values. If we torture the murderer and finally kill him, we are no better than he is, even if he killed someone.

Unfortunately, not executing criminals does not break the cycle of violence, but sends a message that it is okay to murder.

No, since the death penalty is no deterrent. Please search the web for statistics. I have asked my sister, she's a psychologist, about the murderers mental constitution in the moment of the killing. For most of the guys the possible punishment is extremely unimportant. Most of the felons don't think about the punishment when they are planing their crimes. Most of them believe to be inerrable.

One could say, that the deterrent factor of the death penalty is as ineffective as LWOP or anything else.

Yes, I want to live in a peacfull society, but unfortunately, this may be impossible.

Yes, so do I. Unfortunately that's absolutely impossible and just a dream.

[eu.ro]

Guest-Thomas said:

Wow Eurostar, found a button didn't we. I am glad you are not a U.S. national. You cannot effect the DP debate in this country by a vote, if, that is, you are old enough to vote. By the way, you wouldn't have a vote today in your country if not for the U.S. Why don't you focus your attentions on the many problems facing your nation and butt out of ours? Or are you what we call here a "one tune Johnny." Certainly you could be trying to solve the neo-NAZI resergence or or some other social ill in your country.

That's the response of the guy who complains about verbal aggressions and nasty terms? Well, it's time to wake up Thomas! Mr. Correctional Officer is a bit pissed off , isn't he?

[Thomas]

Eurostar said:

That's the response of the guy who complains about verbal aggressions and nasty terms? Well, it's time to wake up Thomas! Mr. Correctional Officer is a bit pissed off , isn't he?

Quite the contrary. I am mildly amused but growing board arguing with someone who has no vested interest in the outcome. In addidtion, it would take much more than weak arguments from the fringe left to *deleted* me off. Sorry, try again.

[Deleted]

Eurostar said:

I don't know if this is important to anyone here, but I work as a mathematician and software developer.


I can't stop telling this. Because they are human beings!They may be human beings, but they turned in to human being monsters after the carnage! Bin Laden, Hitler, and Stalin are an example.


Hey, hey, hey STOP! We are talking about human beings, not animals. As much as I love them, but this comparison is invalid.

Philosophy is the same though, when humans kill, like animals, they turn into beings that are too dangerous to live on earth. What if a human being killed your daughter, son or both?

We have to treat human beings like human beings. We have to respect human rights and values.

You are correct, we do have to treat human beings with respect and human rights. When murderers kill, they violate that sacred code and lose that right. They violated the victim's human rights as the innocent victim was slaughtered needlessly.

If we torture the murderer and finally kill him, we are no better than he is, even if he killed someone.

How does one torture a murderer? The torture the murderer goes through is null compared to what the victim suffered. The victim was never even able to say goodby! We are better than he because we are doing justice for the victim. Yes, nothing can compensate for what Timothy McVeigh did as you stated earlier, but the death sentence in his case was obviously a much better choice than LWOP!!


No, since the death penalty is no deterrent. Please search the web for statistics. I have asked my sister, she's a psychologist, about the murderers mental constitution in the moment of the killing. For most of the guys the possible punishment is extremely unimportant. Most of the felons don't think about the punishment when they are planing their crimes. Most of them believe to be inerrable.

No deterrant? Check out Bryan's posts for one example! Also, when robbers and non-death row inmates see the hearse comming around, I can guarantee you that they will be paying attention and not want to go up the murderous path. Why is it that there are many psychologists who do believe in capital punishment?

One could say, that the deterrent factor of the death penalty is as ineffective as LWOP or anything else.

They could say it, but it is not accurate.

Yes, so do I. Unfortunately that's absolutely impossible and just a dream.

Great point, and another reason why we need the death penalty. As long as there are murderers, we need the death penalty. If no one raped or murdered in the first place, then I can see eliminating it. Unfortunately, like you just stated, it is only a dream!

Leah