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Post by Rob on Aug 9, 2004 8:34:06 GMT -6
I work for a larg production facility here in Maine. My job brings me into contact with allot of tractor trailer drivers.
I was just talking to one who was robbed at gun point in Columbus Ohio, he really thought his life was going to end that friday night, he begged, please don't kill me, explaining he was a Father and Grandfather.
Stories like this further strengthen my pro-gun stance
and the belief we need more liberal carry laws, such as Vermont has, as many of you probaly know, in Vermont for resident and non-resident alike, if you can legally own a gun you can carry it concealed or not.
This should be the law in all states, but I would add all people carrying have to take a certified hand gun safty course and need to carry a cirtificate showing completion of such course.
It truly, eludes me how state and our Federal Governments, allow criminals an advantage over law abiding citizens and truly think gun regulation is the way to go.
If that would have been me, simply trying to do my job, that drug pusher pimp and the Ho he had with him, Would have been dead in the street, that may sound harsh but I refuse to be a victim.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2004 23:30:34 GMT -6
I agree with most of what you said. My state just passed legislation to allow concealed carry. It forces the person to attend a training program to make sure the person knows how to use the gun. I think that law abidding citizens have the right to have firearms. The problem is that most people buy a gun but they never learn how to use it. That leads to many gun owners who have their own gun used against them by a criminal. If someone wants a gun they should also be responsible enough to learn how to handle the gun.
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Post by Rob on Aug 17, 2004 10:02:56 GMT -6
I agree with most of what you said. My state just passed legislation to allow concealed carry. It forces the person to attend a training program to make sure the person knows how to use the gun. I think that law abidding citizens have the right to have firearms. The problem is that most people buy a gun but they never learn how to use it. That leads to many gun owners who have their own gun used against them by a criminal. If someone wants a gun they should also be responsible enough to learn how to handle the gun. I agree, there should be a federal carry permit, so all law abidding citizens can carry in any state, provideing ofcourse they take a mandated safety and awareness course.Talk about a crime deterant. |
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Post by marr on Aug 29, 2004 17:20:30 GMT -6
I also agree i think people should be able to carry a gun if they wish to do so. they should have to pass a class. I wanted to add there should be places where no guns are allowed except cops places like school, airports, bars (so when there drunk) the chance of an accident decrees.
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Post by nikstar on Sept 1, 2004 1:50:28 GMT -6
Sorry guys, guns don't stop murder, they cause murder.
If everyone walked around with a gun, more people wll die. Have you ever wondered why the US has so many murders each year? Maybe its because so many people own guns. Haven't you seen "Bowling for Columbine"
Michael More for President!!!
Nikstar
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Post by words on Sept 1, 2004 4:24:32 GMT -6
Michael More for President!!! Nikstar OMG, with this you sure brought discredit upon yourself...  The PROS will be slapping their knees... |
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Post by GlennF on Sept 1, 2004 5:13:57 GMT -6
Michael More for President!!! Nikstar Now that's the dumbest comment on this board!!! P.S. I guess you meant Moore! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2004 8:47:40 GMT -6
Sorry guys, guns don't stop murder, they cause murder. If everyone walked around with a gun, more people wll die. Have you ever wondered why the US has so many murders each year? Maybe its because so many people own guns. Haven't you seen "Bowling for Columbine" Michael More for President!!! Nikstar It's foolish for you to think that in the absence of guns, murders would lessen.  |
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Post by nikstar on Sept 1, 2004 18:30:35 GMT -6
O.K in regards to the Michael Moore comment, sorry was fealing a bit cheaky  But curious, I am not foolish. In Australia gun law reform came in in 1997 after the Port Arthur Masacre in Tasmania in 1996. Murders, will happen yes thats true, but since then there has been very few shootings in Australia, the shootings are mostly by kids who find their parents guns!!! Gun related deaths have gone down by 67% since then. Denial is not a river in Egypt, gun control works!!  |
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Post by Lyndy on Sept 2, 2004 0:42:43 GMT -6
Nikstar, I know where you got those statistics from. I am from Australia too, and often browse through this site. ALthough gun deaths have deccreased significantly, we never really had many in the first place, so that 67% could actually mean 4 deaths, you know what I mean  A bit misleading, I don'tthink Australia can be compared to the US. Lyndy |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2004 8:17:25 GMT -6
O.K in regards to the Michael Moore comment, sorry was fealing a bit cheaky But curious, I am not foolish. In Australia gun law reform came in in 1997 after the Port Arthur Masacre in Tasmania in 1996. Murders, will happen yes thats true, but since then there has been very few shootings in Australia, the shootings are mostly by kids who find their parents guns!!! Gun related deaths have gone down by 67% since then. Denial is not a river in Egypt, gun control works!! Gun control works for the criminal more than the average citizen...meaning...the criminals are the ones who will obtain guns regardless of the laws banning them. |
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Post by nikstar on Sept 2, 2004 18:40:35 GMT -6
In some ways yes, "criminals" will find guns regardless, however gun control will limit the more "spontaneous" crimes and will stop kids from stealing their parents guns and going to school and killing people. 14 year old kids can't access guns on the black market  Nikstar |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2004 20:09:47 GMT -6
In some ways yes, "criminals" will find guns regardless, however gun control will limit the more "spontaneous" crimes and will stop kids from stealing their parents guns and going to school and killing people. 14 year old kids can't access guns on the black market Nikstar Surely you jest....how naive of you..OF COURSE 14 yr olds can gain access to guns... Not only that, but gun control won't and HASN'T STOPPED OR LESSENED murder. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2004 20:19:04 GMT -6
Maybe someone could provide statistics about how many murders are committed with guns vs all the other methods of murdering.
Even if every gun on this earth was banned, murderers would still murder.
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Post by nikstar on Sept 2, 2004 21:12:35 GMT -6
Hi Curious, Funny, you called me Naive and my sister called me idealistic yesterday, maybe I am, this might be a sign Anyway, from a naive, idealistic point of view, this is my logic. Many murders are committed because of opportunity and impulse (not all) without guns you would limit many of these murders. And even if that is not true, just my opinion. If a country enforced gun control, it is sending out a message that "murder" and guns are wrong and I believe this is the start to stopping violent crime. From what I understand, forgive me if I am wrong, but in the U.S constitution, it says "everyone has the right to bare arms" Does this mean that anyone can buy a gun, or do you need a licence, can convicted offenders buy guns? Even if we look at a minimal gun control, i.e stopping people with a crimnal record from owning a gun...Do you believe this would eliviate crime? And as the saying goes "Naivity and idealism is the true beauty of an untainted soul" |
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Post by salemjones on Sept 2, 2004 21:26:38 GMT -6
Gun control is the single most efficient way to dramatically decrease the murder rate in the US. It is easy, it is free, and it pays off.
"But how should I defend myself?"
How do You plan to defend Yourself with the gun? With many guns around, the criminal is more careful. If there is a high probability that the random victim is armed, the criminal will certainly equip himself accordingly, aim first and shoot first. You will probably not have any use for that gun, even if You are attacked.
It is a fact that it is more probable that You will be shot by Your own gun than that You will ever get to shoot any criminal with that. Furthermore, if having access to a gun there is a risk You will use it when it is not supposed to be used, like in a quarrel with Your spouse, neighbour or someone else. By having a gun, You risk Yourself, Your family and Your neighboorhood.
"But the criminals will get guns anyway"
From where do the criminals get their guns?
1. Legally bought from a store.
2. Stolen from a gun owner by robbery or housebreaking.
3. Being an ordinary innocent citizen owning a gun to protect himself, then turning into a criminal by committing a crime. (No there is nothing like "we and them", there is a risk that anyone may turn into a criminal under certain circumstances.)
Gun control will definately decrease the number of guns in circulation, to be bought, stolen or used to commit a crime. There will be fewer guns around, fewer guns fired and fewer people killed. It is that easy.
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Post by salemjones on Sept 2, 2004 21:32:50 GMT -6
Even if every gun on this earth was banned, murderers would still murder. Yes. But there will be less murderers and less murders. Furthermore, with gun control, people are prevented from wasting their money on unnecessary and dangerous arms, so that they can spend on more useful things instead. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2004 8:13:47 GMT -6
Hi Curious, Funny, you called me Naive and my sister called me idealistic yesterday, maybe I am, this might be a sign Anyway, from a naive, idealistic point of view, this is my logic. Many murders are committed because of opportunity and impulse (not all) without guns you would limit many of these murders. And even if that is not true, just my opinion. If a country enforced gun control, it is sending out a message that "murder" and guns are wrong and I believe this is the start to stopping violent crime. From what I understand, forgive me if I am wrong, but in the U.S constitution, it says "everyone has the right to bare arms" Does this mean that anyone can buy a gun, or do you need a licence, can convicted offenders buy guns? Even if we look at a minimal gun control, i.e stopping people with a crimnal record from owning a gun...Do you believe this would eliviate crime? And as the saying goes "Naivity and idealism is the true beauty of an untainted soul" Whether impulse or not, murderers use infinite methods to kill...clubs, rope, knives,poison.....anything you can imagine probably has been used to murder. Not having access to a gun means almost nothing to someone who is determined to murder. Sure, we have a right to bear arms when certain rules are followed. If you violate those rules, you may lose some of those rights. However, it still does NOT prevent a criminal from obtaining guns illegally. Those who murder don't uphold the law, anyway, so gun control to them is like pissing in the wind. I don't mean for this to sound cruel....but honestly a statement like that can lead to a very DEAD soul. Many have been lured and killed while trying to help someone who feigned helplessness. I would no sooner stop to help someone with a flat tire, car trouble, whatever the circumstance EVER! Would I call 911 for them? Sure.... But I would NEVER stop, get out of my car, or any of these things....regardless of how dire the situation seemed.. naivté and/or and idealism in these situations can equate to death. |
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Post by Thomas on Oct 10, 2004 11:27:08 GMT -6
Gun control is doomed to failure. In a perfect world, gun control would take every firearm off the street, murders would decrease drastically, and we would all live happily ever after; right Nikstar and Mr. Jones?
Well, I have a little reality for you. Sorry to rain on your youthful inexperienced parade. If this nation embraced total gun control, gang and mob violence would evolve that would make prohibition look like a Sunday walk in the park.
This is America. We have the great entrepreneurial spirit. We like to make money. There are many people who do not care how they make it. (See illegal drug distribution) Today, I could build a lethal firearm in my tool shed using easily obtainable materials costing no more than a few dollars. I could create lethal bullets using materials obtained at my local hardware store. Have no doubt my youthful friends. Thousands of people would begin to create such weapons and fill the vacuum left by gun control. The only difference would be that these weapons would not be traceable; therefore, less violent criminals would be brought to justice.
Like it or not, firearms have been an integral part of human life for hundreds of years. Taking them away from law abiding citizens will not change this. I have some more disheartening news for you. There are bad people in this world, people who would rape, torture and kill you while eating a hotdog. I know such people because of my vocation. I do not want to trust the government with my family’s protection. If one of these people ever comes into my home, one of us will die. If I have my firearms, it will be the bad guy. I you take my firearms away, it will be me. That is the truth of gun control.
Quote from George Washington: “What sets the American man apart from the rest of the world is that he would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.” Gun control advocates seem to prefer living on their knees.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2004 22:50:41 GMT -6
I work for a larg production facility here in Maine. My job brings me into contact with allot of tractor trailer drivers. I was just talking to one who was robbed at gun point in Columbus Ohio, he really thought his life was going to end that friday night, he begged, please don't kill me, explaining he was a Father and Grandfather. Stories like this further strengthen my pro-gun stance and the belief we need more liberal carry laws, such as Vermont has, as many of you probaly know, in Vermont for resident and non-resident alike, if you can legally own a gun you can carry it concealed or not. This should be the law in all states, but I would add all people carrying have to take a certified hand gun safty course and need to carry a cirtificate showing completion of such course. It truly, eludes me how state and our Federal Governments, allow criminals an advantage over law abiding citizens and truly think gun regulation is the way to go. If that would have been me, simply trying to do my job, that drug pusher pimp and the Ho he had with him, Would have been dead in the street, that may sound harsh but I refuse to be a victim. One problem: Vermont like Maine does not have the death penalty. I don't know much about the "right to carry" laws but do know that in Minnesota, you can now carry a concealed weopon. Texas has the death penalty and also has a "right to carry" law. Though the "right to carry" law is a good tool for protection, it isn't everything and doesn't replace the need for the death penalty. What if someone stole your gun? |
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Post by oldsparky on Oct 29, 2004 0:31:06 GMT -6
I work for a larg production facility here in Maine. My job brings me into contact with allot of tractor trailer drivers. I was just talking to one who was robbed at gun point in Columbus Ohio, he really thought his life was going to end that friday night, he begged, please don't kill me, explaining he was a Father and Grandfather. Stories like this further strengthen my pro-gun stance and the belief we need more liberal carry laws, such as Vermont has, as many of you probaly know, in Vermont for resident and non-resident alike, if you can legally own a gun you can carry it concealed or not. This should be the law in all states, but I would add all people carrying have to take a certified hand gun safty course and need to carry a cirtificate showing completion of such course. It truly, eludes me how state and our Federal Governments, allow criminals an advantage over law abiding citizens and truly think gun regulation is the way to go. If that would have been me, simply trying to do my job, that drug pusher pimp and the Ho he had with him, Would have been dead in the street, that may sound harsh but I refuse to be a victim. I agree. I'm working on getting my Nevada concealed carry permit - should be done by this Saturday. I purchased the business end of this license - a Glock 23 - at a gunshow last saturday. I must say it feels very good to pack heat and have it if you need it. I did the same when I was living in Arizona. There's a great website on concealed carry called packing.org. It has a wealth of info on this subject and links to all state codes. www.packing.orgBTW bringing up this subject, anyone hear about the new Al Queda videotape? I say we implement Japanese Admiral Yamamoto's fear about the American homeland; let 'em try and invade - we'll have "a rifle behind every blade of grass" waiting for them. The only folks "swimming in blood" will be the terrorists. Come get some, Osama! |
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Post by oldsparky on Oct 29, 2004 0:42:37 GMT -6
Well, the DP's necessary and useful after the fact, but concealed carry may prevent the fact from happening altogether - and doesn't cost the taxpayer a penny! Let the Liberals dial 911 for THEIR safety! - Sparks |
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Post by oldsparky on Oct 29, 2004 1:26:50 GMT -6
Gun control is the single most efficient way to dramatically decrease the murder rate in the US. It is easy, it is free, and it pays off.
Oh, right, I forgot. Which explains why Washington DC with a ban on handguns and virtually all semi-auomatic rifles has a murder rate of 69 per 100,000, while Indianopolis, with very limited gun control has a murder rate of 9 per 100,000.
"But how should I defend myself?"
How do You plan to defend Yourself with the gun? With many guns around, the criminal is more careful. If there is a high probability that the random victim is armed, the criminal will certainly equip himself accordingly, aim first and shoot first. You will probably not have any use for that gun, even if You are attacked.
Bullsh*t. Criminals understand power and worry only about themselves. Most don't know a damn thing about guns, which explains why gangsters like Tec-9s, a gun what will probably get you killed if you take it with you into a gunfight. They only know that they can threaten you and coerce you to do what they want you to with one.
I have a lot of practice using my own firearms. I do competition shooting in 3-gun tournaments and have logged over 20,000 rounds with pistols, rifle carbines and shotguns. I know how to handle my guns in a tactical environment and use them. I can shoot 2" groups @ 25 yards slow fire with Glocks and center mass groups in rapid fire. I also accomplished with the AR-15 battle rifle and can place evey single round out of a 30 round magazine on target, slow or rapid fire from 100+ yards out. I know how to assess an environment from a tactical perspective and have an number of practiced scenerios at my disposal. Bottom line is, if a crook thinks that he can out wit me in a gunfight, he'd better be willing to bet his life on it, because I WILL kill him if he can't.
It is a fact that it is more probable that You will be shot by Your own gun than that You will ever get to shoot any criminal with that. Furthermore, if having access to a gun there is a risk You will use it when it is not supposed to be used, like in a quarrel with Your spouse, neighbour or someone else. By having a gun, You risk Yourself, Your family and Your neighboorhood.
Actually, by the numbers, guns are over twice as likely to be used in self defense than in misuse, criminal activity and accidents. The violence policy center and the Brady campaign misinterpret data and twist it to fit their agendas - ban all guns. The total number of gun accidents in the United States every year is around 50 - hardly the 30,000 that Sarah Brady would have you believe. Hell, with enough information, I can make Michael Moore look like an anorexic!
With all freedom comes responsibility. You must steward you weapons carefully and with respect for their capabilities - and 99.9999999% percent of all law abiding gun owners do this. Considering that United States citizens own over 250 million guns, this reduces the number of misuses by law abiding gun owners to only a handful. Senator Feinstein lied to you - the streets are not "warzones" thanks to civilian gun ownership.
"But the criminals will get guns anyway"
From where do the criminals get their guns?
1. Legally bought from a store.
2. Stolen from a gun owner by robbery or housebreaking.
3. Being an ordinary innocent citizen owning a gun to protect himself, then turning into a criminal by committing a crime. (No there is nothing like "we and them", there is a risk that anyone may turn into a criminal under certain circumstances.)
Gun control will definately decrease the number of guns in circulation, to be bought, stolen or used to commit a crime. There will be fewer guns around, fewer guns fired and fewer people killed. It is that easy.
Which is exactly why England has a problem with criminal gangs posessing fully automatic AK-47s - hey wait a minute? I thought those were BANNED IN ENGLAND!?!?!?! Now how the hell did the crooks over there pull that off? Actually the number of guns involved with crimes that are stolen from owners is small compared to the supply that comes in from gureilla capitalism such as drug smuggling and prostitution. So, yes! Criminals will get guns because the don't obey the law. (Remember, there is a reason we call them "criminals"). The only real people that banning guns hurts are the law abiding citizens who would otherwise never harm anyone with their guns.
So now, Salem Jones, I offer you the following refresher course in guns:
1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
3. Glock: The original point and click interface.
4 Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.
5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?
6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
7. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.
8. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.
9. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.
10. The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights reserved.
11 What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
12. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.
13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and liberals.
15. Know guns, know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety.
16. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
17. 911 - government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.
18. Assault is a behavior, not a device.
19. Criminals love gun control -- it makes their jobs safer.
20. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
21. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.
22. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
23. Enforce the "gun control laws" we have, don't make more.
24. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
25. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.
26. "...A government of the people, by the people, for the people..." AMEN!
- Sparks
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2004 3:10:21 GMT -6
Sparks- Please stop blaming all liberals. I own a Glock 17 and I feel that innocent people should be allowed to have firearms. My state just began concealed carry and I haven't decided if it is worth it yet. You can't tell me that you wouldn't at least say that felons should not have guns. Automatic rifles, like those used in the North Hollywood bank shootout, show what can happen when people get there hands on them. Teflon coated, "cop-killer," bullets also serve no purpose other than to defeat the vests worn by police. Where do you draw the line? How about explosives, grenade launchers, etc.? There have to be some limits. If anyone here is looking for a quality handgun, check out Glock. They are well balanced, light, simple to care for, and very reliable. |
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Post by eu.ro on Oct 29, 2004 4:05:36 GMT -6
Crap-master old$hity's back with another intellectual top efficiency. Looks rather like a lack of self-confidence and knowledge than a plausible argument. And a french in your back is better than two rednecks in front of you! Hmmmm, maybe you should try the point and klick interface in your mouth. That's what your mother told you? Maybe you should have used your pencil more often. Huuuuu, old$hity, that's impressive! Morons don't ask permission to kill with the arms they bear. By the way, especially impotent men love to bear extremely large guns ..... If you are not able to read ......! What about the day before yesterday or last week? Where do all these murders come from? Pencils? Oh, the same enemies you have? Know books, know education and self-confidence. No books, no education nor self-confidence! You are such a wise guy! Sure, old$hity, you should become President. Yes, criminals love guns. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens and has no other solutions to offer needs the death penalty. When you don't remove the people's right to bear arms, you create potential murderers. You are still unhappy about the fact, that the South didn't win, aren't you?
"There are approximately 66.7 million handguns in circulation in the United States, and the supply is increasing by 2 million handguns each year. These weapons account for more than half of all murders annually. In New York City, firearms, primarily handguns, were used in 69 percent of all homicides. In 1991, criminals fired an estimated 444 shots at New York's finest, a 26 percent increase over 1990, and a 77 percent increase in just 6 years .... A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that it is 43 times more likely for a gun kept at home to be used on its owner than in self defense. According to the FBI, only 215 'justifiable' homicides were committed with handguns in 1990, a tiny fraction of all handgun killings."
Source: Solarz, Stephen J., Rep.-N.Y. Protecting Our Communities from Handgun Violence. Congressional Record (Daily Edition) E2492-2493. Have a nice day, loser ... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2004 8:44:34 GMT -6
Crap-master old$hity's back with another intellectual top efficiency. Huuuuu, old$hity, that's impressive! Morons don't ask permission to kill with the arms they bear. By the way, especially impotent men love to bear extremely large guns ..... Sure, old$hity, you should become President. Yes, criminals love guns. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2004 8:47:57 GMT -6
Well, the DP's necessary and useful after the fact, but concealed carry may prevent the fact from happening altogether - and doesn't cost the taxpayer a penny! Let the Liberals dial 911 for THEIR safety! - Sparks Hi Sparks, I myself own pepper spray. Where I am from we don't have the right to carry law, but pepper spray is better than nothing. Yes carrying a concealed weopon can save your life and only costs taxpayers the price of their purchases. However, what if someone broke in, stole your gun, then decided to kill you with your own weopon? Leah |
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Post by eu.ro on Oct 29, 2004 8:50:29 GMT -6
Since that is the language old$hity understands. Why don't you intervene when curios calls me "moronic"? What about her obscene language, baby?  Yep, you just wanted to say something, I know. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2004 8:55:34 GMT -6
Since that is the language old$hity understands. Why don't you intervene when curios calls me "moronic"? What about her obscene language, baby? Yep, you just wanted to say something, I know. The word mornic is minor compared to your terms that you use quite often. Curious may have used moronic once or twice maybe. Nothing compared to you, Nice try. P.S. Grow up! |
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Post by eu.ro on Oct 29, 2004 10:30:37 GMT -6
Well Leah, of course you are angry about me and curios is a saint. If I would complain and respond to every attack, every subliminal aggression and every nasty term you guys address to me, I could quit doing anything else. It's one thing to be a supporter of the death penalty and a completely different thing to be fanatic death penalty redneck. So, please spare me with further sanctimonious advices.
Maybe you should have a closer look on old$hities avatar. That's obscene, birdbrained and simple-minded! Let me hear you complaining about that!
By the way, were just talking about gun control. So, if you have no arguments concerning the response to old$hities post, leave me alone with your adolescent problems.
Eurostar
p.s.:
Hahaha, how old are you? I'm 31, is that old enough for you?
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The PROS will be slapping their knees...
A bit misleading, I don'tthink Australia can be compared to the US.
