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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 12:08:06 GMT -6
And as I said the only question is were the perps found guilty. Then execute them. Sounds like more convicted people should be executed to cover the faux racism you're trying to promote. Im all for it. Well, that discussion went a bit like this: Joe: execution of murderers mostly has to do with the race of the victim. Lynne: yep. WD: blacks murder more whites than whites murder blacks. Lynne: true, but usually murder doesn't cross racial lines. Blacks commit 50% of murder victims, most of them black. Yet, 76% of those we execute murdered white victims. Hawg: Blacks murder 50% of murder victims, yet we only execute 15%. So, DP isn't racist. Lynne: Because who we execute is dependent upon the race of the victim. Hawg: It's a wash. Lynne: *patiently offers charts from DPIC, one of which shows the number executed by RACE OF THE VICTIMS* Hawg: It's fake racism you're promoting. Let's just execute more to balance it all out. I'll just leave you to your ignorance, since that seems to be where you're comfortable. The number of executions per year have largely been going down. But, good luck with your pipe dream!
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Post by hawg on May 10, 2018 12:39:11 GMT -6
So you show a graph showing whites executed sit at 55% while blacks are executed at 34%. And I'm delusional about your racism?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 9:32:27 GMT -6
So you show a graph showing whites executed sit at 55% while blacks are executed at 34%. And I'm delusional about your racism? And, now I'm racist. Nice comeback, Hawg. There's more than one graph there to look at. All along I've been talking about race of the VICTIM. 75% of those who've been executed killed WHITE VICTIMS. That should bother you since because we execute 75% of those who kill white victims, we execute more whites than blacks, even though about half of all murders are committed by blacks. Not a wash. Not racism. Fact.
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Post by hawg on May 11, 2018 11:18:49 GMT -6
So you show a graph showing whites executed sit at 55% while blacks are executed at 34%. And I'm delusional about your racism? All along I've been talking about race of the VICTIM. 75% of those who've been executed killed WHITE VICTIMS. yeah I know. my whole point. you make it sound like the DP is racist because killers of white victims are executed at a higher rate. while the race of the victim is "A" fact, it is an entirely irrelevant fact. the ONLY relevant fact or by far and wide the most important fact/question is simply: is the killer guilty and duly convicted? that's it. nothing else. if killers of white victims are guilty they should all hang. if you're not happy with your perceived ratio of executed killers of non-whites then deal with THAT. but then again your posts are generally so convoluted I may be completely off base of what you're trying to say. but the DP is NOT racist. conviction and sentencing could be, deal with it there. but four 30-30 bullets to the chest will kill you whether you're white, black or green. totally non-discriminatory.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 17:31:35 GMT -6
my whole point. you make it sound like the DP is racist because killers of white victims are executed at a higher rate. while the race of the victim is "A" fact, it is an entirely irrelevant fact. the ONLY relevant fact or by far and wide the most important fact/question is simply: is the killer guilty and duly convicted? that's it. nothing else. if killers of white victims are guilty they should all hang. if you're not happy with your perceived ratio of executed killers of non-whites then deal with THAT. but then again your posts are generally so convoluted I may be completely off base of what you're trying to say. but the DP is NOT racist. conviction and sentencing could be, deal with it there. but four 30-30 bullets to the chest will kill you whether you're white, black or green. totally non-discriminatory. The death penalty isn't racist. People are. Prosecutors use several factors to determine whether to seek DP. First, is it a capital offense (Murder 1 or felony murder). Next is how good the case is against the perp. Then they decide whether it's likely a jury will vote for death for that defendant. Factors that go into this are things like whether the murderer looks innocent and sweet, his or her background, another is whether the victim was a good guy, his or her family is upstanding citizens, etc. Amid this is race of the victim. According to several articles from various sources, a murderer who is eligible for DP is far more likely to get a death sentence IF he murdered a white person. Why is this important? Well, for the murderer, kill someone of color. For (some of) the rest of us it shows the bias with which we humans dole punishment. We simply care more when a murder victim is white. Is it prosecutors? I dunno. They know what juries want. They know which cases are more likely to win. Those are the ones they go after. You can repeat again and again that the race of the victim is an irrelevant fact, but you won't convince me. I've read NOTHING that supports your view. Prosecutors understand this fact, and use it. Even most pros understand the truth of this, and accept it, even while it does not change their stance. For them, it's not a reason to jump sides, it's a reason to fix the system.
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Post by hawg on May 11, 2018 18:55:55 GMT -6
my whole point. you make it sound like the DP is racist because killers of white victims are executed at a higher rate. while the race of the victim is "A" fact, it is an entirely irrelevant fact. the ONLY relevant fact or by far and wide the most important fact/question is simply: is the killer guilty and duly convicted? that's it. nothing else. if killers of white victims are guilty they should all hang. if you're not happy with your perceived ratio of executed killers of non-whites then deal with THAT. but then again your posts are generally so convoluted I may be completely off base of what you're trying to say. but the DP is NOT racist. conviction and sentencing could be, deal with it there. but four 30-30 bullets to the chest will kill you whether you're white, black or green. totally non-discriminatory. The death penalty isn't racist. People are. Prosecutors use several factors to determine whether to seek DP. First, is it a capital offense (Murder 1 or felony murder). Next is how good the case is against the perp. Then they decide whether it's likely a jury will vote for death for that defendant. Factors that go into this are things like whether the murderer looks innocent and sweet, his or her background, another is whether the victim was a good guy, his or her family is upstanding citizens, etc. Amid this is race of the victim. According to several articles from various sources, a murderer who is eligible for DP is far more likely to get a death sentence IF he murdered a white person. Why is this important? Well, for the murderer, kill someone of color. For (some of) the rest of us it shows the bias with which we humans dole punishment. We simply care more when a murder victim is white. Is it prosecutors? I dunno. They know what juries want. They know which cases are more likely to win. Those are the ones they go after. You can repeat again and again that the race of the victim is an irrelevant fact, but you won't convince me. I've read NOTHING that supports your view. Prosecutors understand this fact, and use it. Even most pros understand the truth of this, and accept it, even while it does not change their stance. For them, it's not a reason to jump sides, it's a reason to fix the system. and nowhere do you address he only important factor. is the murderer of ANY color victim, guilty. no problem with fixing the system and even you agree with me that any potential problem is in the investigation, prosecution and conviction stage. fix your system where the problem lies. unless of course you think innocent people are being executed simply because the victim is white. if so, then let's hear the names.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 19:07:10 GMT -6
The death penalty isn't racist. People are. Prosecutors use several factors to determine whether to seek DP. First, is it a capital offense (Murder 1 or felony murder). Next is how good the case is against the perp. Then they decide whether it's likely a jury will vote for death for that defendant. Factors that go into this are things like whether the murderer looks innocent and sweet, his or her background, another is whether the victim was a good guy, his or her family is upstanding citizens, etc. Amid this is race of the victim. According to several articles from various sources, a murderer who is eligible for DP is far more likely to get a death sentence IF he murdered a white person. Why is this important? Well, for the murderer, kill someone of color. For (some of) the rest of us it shows the bias with which we humans dole punishment. We simply care more when a murder victim is white. Is it prosecutors? I dunno. They know what juries want. They know which cases are more likely to win. Those are the ones they go after. You can repeat again and again that the race of the victim is an irrelevant fact, but you won't convince me. I've read NOTHING that supports your view. Prosecutors understand this fact, and use it. Even most pros understand the truth of this, and accept it, even while it does not change their stance. For them, it's not a reason to jump sides, it's a reason to fix the system. and nowhere do you address he only important factor. is the murderer of ANY color victim, guilty. no problem with fixing the system and even you agree with me that any potential problem is in the investigation, prosecution and conviction stage. fix your system where the problem lies. unless of course you think innocent people are being executed simply because the victim is white. if so, then let's hear the names. Probably 99.9% of the time, they're guilty as hell. Never said they weren't. My system? Hardly. I oppose the death penalty. Strange that you see this as my problem, my issue when you stated (as fact) that: "according to the fbi-ucr about 50% of all murders are committed by blacks, as you've said. but we execute only 15% ? and people claim DP is racist? how is that?" I told you how that is. That's all.
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Post by hawg on May 11, 2018 19:18:34 GMT -6
and nowhere do you address he only important factor. is the murderer of ANY color victim, guilty. no problem with fixing the system and even you agree with me that any potential problem is in the investigation, prosecution and conviction stage. fix your system where the problem lies. unless of course you think innocent people are being executed simply because the victim is white. if so, then let's hear the names. my issue when you stated (as fact) that: "according to the fbi-ucr about 50% of all murders are committed by blacks, as you've said. but we execute only 15% ? and people claim DP is racist? how is that?" on May 5 you, sweetie, said blacks commit 50% of homicides/murders and that we execute 15% of blacks. the 50% is true according to the fbi-ucr reports, but according to the charts you listed we have executed, since 1977, 55% whites to 34% blacks. THAT'S how you cannot claim DP is racist.
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Post by hawg on May 11, 2018 19:30:30 GMT -6
and nowhere do you address he only important factor. is the murderer of ANY color victim, guilty. no problem with fixing the system and even you agree with me that any potential problem is in the investigation, prosecution and conviction stage. fix your system where the problem lies. unless of course you think innocent people are being executed simply because the victim is white. if so, then let's hear the names. Probably 99.9% of the time, they're guilty as hell. oh,BTW, what's the name of that 1% guy?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 19:54:22 GMT -6
my issue when you stated (as fact) that: "according to the fbi-ucr about 50% of all murders are committed by blacks, as you've said. but we execute only 15% ? and people claim DP is racist? how is that?" on May 5 you, sweetie, said blacks commit 50% of homicides/murders and that we execute 15% of blacks. the 50% is true according to the fbi-ucr reports, but according to the charts you listed we have executed, since 1977, 55% whites to 34% blacks. THAT'S how you cannot claim DP is racist. I misspoke. Sorry honey bunches of O's. About 15% of blacks executed killed whites. 75% of whites were executed for murdering whites. If you look at the second chart, you'll see what I mean. It stands to reason that if we're talking about murder victims who were white, we'd execute more whites, since murder usually stays within races, and we prefer to kill those who kill whites. You should be proud.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 20:01:24 GMT -6
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Post by hawg on May 11, 2018 21:53:58 GMT -6
on May 5 you, sweetie, said blacks commit 50% of homicides/murders and that we execute 15% of blacks. the 50% is true according to the fbi-ucr reports, but according to the charts you listed we have executed, since 1977, 55% whites to 34% blacks.  THAT'S how you cannot claim DP is racist.  I misspoke. Sorry honey bunches of O's. About 15% of blacks executed killed whites. 75% of whites were executed for murdering whites. If you look at the second chart, you'll see what I mean. It stands to reason that if we're talking about murder victims who were white, we'd execute more whites, since murder usually stays within races, and we prefer to kill those who kill whites. You should be proud. ALL capitol offense killers should be killed, victim color "shouldn't" matter. Why do you NOT want to kill the bastaads?
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Post by hawg on May 11, 2018 22:02:14 GMT -6
So apparently some part of the system works as I'm assuming these "innocent" people were not executed. Btw, the system does not declare innocence, simply held responsible or not held responsible. These people are no longer held responsible such as charges dropped. They may or not actually be innocent. But that wouldn't make for an eye catching headline, now would it? So they name it the innocence project because we are mostly a headline reading society. Still waiting for confirmed innocent executee since 1977.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 10:05:12 GMT -6
I misspoke. Sorry honey bunches of O's. About 15% of blacks executed killed whites. 75% of whites were executed for murdering whites. If you look at the second chart, you'll see what I mean. It stands to reason that if we're talking about murder victims who were white, we'd execute more whites, since murder usually stays within races, and we prefer to kill those who kill whites. You should be proud. ALL capitol offense killers should be killed, victim color "shouldn't" matter. I agree that ALL capital offense killers should be punished in the same way, regardless of color. Are you English, btw? There are many reasons to oppose DP, I think. Some include: disparities in the system, a belief that we can do better, that an advanced society such as our own ought to be able to figure out better ways to punish the worst among us. If one believes that killing is always wrong except in self defense or defense of another, then killing a killer after holding him prisoner is also wrong. For some antis, it has to do with hanging in spaces such as this and the blood-lust, vengeance, 'closure', bs we've all heard here. Seems like we'd do a whole lot more people ~ murder victim survivors AND society ~ a whole lot more good if we weren't so focused on killing so few, and letting most of the rest come back into society. For myself, most all these things brought me solidly into opposition.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 10:19:39 GMT -6
So apparently some part of the system works as I'm assuming these "innocent" people were not executed. Yes, in those cases. Here's a list of those who were possibly not guilty of the crime they were executed for. deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocentI'm well aware there isn't 'innocent' in the system/courtroom. However, isn't it 'guilty' or 'not guilty'? I've never heard it put 'held responsible' vs 'not held responsible'.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 10:42:49 GMT -6
ALL capitol offense killers should be killed, victim color "shouldn't" matter. I agree that ALL capital offense killers should be punished in the same way, regardless of color. Are you English, btw? There are many reasons to oppose DP, I think. Some include: disparities in the system, a belief that we can do better, that an advanced society such as our own ought to be able to figure out better ways to punish the worst among us. If one believes that killing is always wrong except in self defense or defense of another, then killing a killer after holding him prisoner is also wrong. For some antis, it has to do with hanging in spaces such as this and the blood-lust, vengeance, 'closure', bs we've all heard here. Seems like we'd do a whole lot more people ~ murder victim survivors AND society ~ a whole lot more good if we weren't so focused on killing so few, and letting most of the rest come back into society. For myself, most all these things brought me solidly into opposition. The ones who committed murder & released back into society then murder again should get the DP for sure, within the year. There are better ways, it is the anti stance & defense who make it the long dragged out process, reason so many on DR it takes decades. Only disparities"today" are the 3 degree's of murder. Science has made it easy & cameras, etc with facts to be proven guilty. As well as in a no DP state when an inmate murders again inside the walls it is bs, they just get another 30 yrs added on to the real life sentence they have already. No one is screaming about those disparities.......So murder can go on as long as your already incarcerated too? Society would be much better off in many ways. Execute the bastaads !!!
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Post by hawg on May 12, 2018 12:05:19 GMT -6
ALL capitol offense killers should be killed, victim color "shouldn't" matter. I agree that ALL capital offense killers should be punished in the same way, regardless of color. Are you English, btw? There are many reasons to oppose DP, I think. Some include: disparities in the system, a belief that we can do better, that an advanced society such as our own ought to be able to figure out better ways to punish the worst among us. If one believes that killing is always wrong except in self defense or defense of another, then killing a killer after holding him prisoner is also wrong. For some antis, it has to do with hanging in spaces such as this and the blood-lust, vengeance, 'closure', bs we've all heard here. Seems like we'd do a whole lot more people ~ murder victim survivors AND society ~ a whole lot more good if we weren't so focused on killing so few, and letting most of the rest come back into society. For myself, most all these things brought me solidly into opposition. closure is not bs. none of your solutions provide the 100% guarantee that dp does. dp has nothing to do with re-entry into society of all other criminals. and lastly, while you don't want murderers killed in "your name", I don't want money wasted on them being, fed, clothed, housed in "my" name. there are better uses for the money. nope, not english, native american. ( not indian either. but born and raised here and nowhere else makes me native to this country. not my ancestors, me. politically correct thought and terms be damned)
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Post by hawg on May 12, 2018 12:19:17 GMT -6
So apparently some part of the system works as I'm assuming these "innocent" people were not executed. Yes, in those cases. Here's a list of those who were possibly not guilty of the crime they were executed for. deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocentI'm well aware there isn't 'innocent' in the system/courtroom. However, isn't it 'guilty' or 'not guilty'? I've never heard it put 'held responsible' vs 'not held responsible'. "possibly" not guilty doesn't blow my skirt up. Elvis may "possibly" still be alive. OJ may "possibly" be innocent. still waiting. how much longer do we have to wait for evidence of "innocence" for ron lafferty? guilty/not guilty is indeed the terms used, but they mean either held responsible or not held responsible. that's why exoneration is used instead of innocence. it simply means we are no longer holding you responsible for your charges. for whatever reason, one of which may even be evidence of innocence, but the two terms are not synonymous. with our system based ultimately on "beyond a reasonable doubt" it simply couldn't function on absolutes. and that's the biggest problem with anti's, they delusionally demand absolutes.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 13:03:28 GMT -6
I will never be able to wrap my head around saving murderers. Raping killing our children, killing their parents, etc.
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Post by bernard on May 12, 2018 13:05:32 GMT -6
I will never be able to wrap my head around saving murderers. Antis are in favor of not killing murderers. Not killing ≠saving. Unless you think I am saving the whole world every day.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 13:08:14 GMT -6
I like saving too. Just different views on who to save.
To add: my views on who to save, include what I believe it was what Iowa did, if they can hear a heartbeat they will not do an abortion. I believe in saving them too.
Anti's hate me bringing this up. I'm crazy like that.
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Post by bernard on May 12, 2018 13:26:46 GMT -6
I like saving too. Just different views on who to save. Nope. You have misunderstood.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 13:44:23 GMT -6
Your an anti right?
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 13:46:13 GMT -6
I like saving too. Just different views on who to save. Nope. You have misunderstood. If I did misunderstand, I blame it on Thurs & Fri were helllllllll here. Exhausted today.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 14:25:25 GMT -6
ALL capitol offense killers should be killed, victim color "shouldn't" matter. I agree that ALL capital offense killers should be punished in the same way, regardless of color. Are you English, btw? There are many reasons to oppose DP, I think. Some include: disparities in the system, a belief that we can do better, that an advanced society such as our own ought to be able to figure out better ways to punish the worst among us. If one believes that killing is always wrong except in self defense or defense of another, then killing a killer after holding him prisoner is also wrong. For some antis, it has to do with hanging in spaces such as this and the blood-lust, vengeance, 'closure', bs we've all heard here. Seems like we'd do a whole lot more people ~ murder victim survivors AND society ~ a whole lot more good if we weren't so focused on killing so few, and letting most of the rest come back into society. For myself, most all these things brought me solidly into opposition. I find it odd in this throw away society we have become in so many area's, anyone would fight to save murderers.
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Post by bernard on May 12, 2018 14:35:12 GMT -6
Folks come up to me and are like, "Yo bro. Give us $100 so we can execute this POS." I'm like, "what do you need $100 for? Costs a $1.02 for a needle and some juice. That's one of your main arguments for why the DP is so good." Then one of them's like, "cause of appeals and such. He's gonna get lawyers and we need to fight through that so we can get our killing." And the other one's like, "Legal fees bro. We gotta fight fire with fire." And the first one's like, "Costs a lot more than $100 too." But the other one's like, "That's why we're spreading the costs over all taxpayers." And the first one's like, "$100 is a small price to pay for justice." And I'm like, "But it ain't justice. You execute one or two like him, while only giving prison sentences to thousands of others. And there ain't no rhyme nor reason to which murderers you choose to juice." But they're like, 'Yeah but we're in favor of executing all murderers." And I'm like, "then why don't you?" And one of them's like, "can't afford it.' And the other one's like, "Unless you'd like to pay $100 for each one." "in taxes," the first one adds. "for the lawyers' fees," adds the second. "to fight each and every appeal," adds the first. I'm like, "No thanks. But if you want my opinion equal crimes should get equal punishment. You should quit with the whole program if you can't afford to do it properly. " They're like, "we could do it properly if we got rid of appeals." I'm like, "then do that." And they're like, "we would need at least $10,000 from you." I'm like, "$10,000??? What on earth for?" And one of them's like, "constitutional amendments ain't cheap." And the other one's like, "You need a super majority in both houses..." And the first one's like, "political campaigns in every state." And the other one's like, "opposed by the other side. And the first one's like, "who we'd have to match dollar for dollar." And the other one's like, "and then when we win..." The first one's like "we'll need money for lawyers." And the other one interrupts, "You think Obamacare was costly?" While the first one continues, "to figure out the details..." And the other one adds, "and bring in the new system..." And the first one's like, "and establish new case law." And I'm like, "I'm done with this. Consider me opposed to this unjust and expensive lawyers' circus that you call the death penalty." And they're like, "why are you trying to save murderers bro?"
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 14:56:54 GMT -6
Easy you have screwball pros's & screwball anti's. So
If it is about cost, why should we support those with real LWOP for eternity or support for decades those on DR, after decades then the cost of execution added on. Save them?
Should our tax's support abortion, for every ones personal screw ups?
Support the fake ones on medicaid who have smart phone off our money or for a tattoo, sex change too?
Where does it stop?
People do not want to be responsible on any minor incident today either.
I had fencers here replacing 100 ft of fence( wood) they asked to use the hose,ok to mix the concrete.
Not one of them said anything, they sliced my hose, then hung it up & shut off the water to it. Well, i checked the hose turned on the water & it was spraying all over. I told the guy about the hose( I know they would have left & not mentioned it) .He told me he would give me cash for it, No, you will go get me another hose, not me. I will hold this part of the check until you do. They were paid half up front for the cost of material. I know once they got the check they would not replace or pay me for the hose. Not my problem to get the hose, it is on them.
Even when you have workers here they will pull some crap if they can.
No one is responsible anymore or upfront.
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Post by hawg on May 12, 2018 15:51:23 GMT -6
the biggest problem to your above post Bernard, or to any anti-pro argument is that the very second the DP is abolished every single anti DP argument will immediately transfer to life in prison. innocence, cost, deterrence, discrimination, cruel and unusual arguments will remain the same. every single one. and we will argue punishment until ALL punishment is eradicated. the only difference is that after the demise of the DP we will no longer have a 100% guaranteed effective recidivism proof safeguard to stop killers from killing again. so, hurdle the dead and trample the weak. or in other words, kill the ones you can, cage the ones you can't.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 12, 2018 16:56:51 GMT -6
the biggest problem to your above post Bernard, or to any anti-pro argument is that the very second the DP is abolished every single anti DP argument will immediately transfer to life in prison. innocence, cost, deterrence, discrimination, cruel and unusual arguments will remain the same. every single one. and we will argue punishment until ALL punishment is eradicated. the only difference is that after the demise of the DP we will no longer have a 100% guaranteed effective recidivism proof safeguard to stop killers from killing again. so, hurdle the dead and trample the weak. or in other words, kill the ones you can, cage the ones you can't. And the anti's even pros's know that is the agenda.
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Post by bernard on May 12, 2018 20:52:14 GMT -6
Easy you have screwball pros's & screwball anti's. So Well, I was actually just pointing out that I have very different reasons for being anti than wanting to "save murderers". The same is true of most other antis, if this place over the years is anything to go by. Stop fighting with the straw caricature. The options are (i) release them (ii) pay for them to be imprisoned (iii) pay even more to execute them or (iv) put them to work to make them cost effective in jail (iv) is superficially the most rational, but people complain about them stealing jobs from law abiding folk. This somehow manages to be both off topic and in violent agreement with the point I made. (Hmm. She's on a roll. I wonder how far off topic she can go...) (...) (...) (...)
Oh, er <wakes up> So, um, what other examples do you have of this kind of thing?
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