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Post by whitediamonds on May 4, 2018 12:46:14 GMT -6
There are something like 174,000 murderers imprisoned in the US, with maybe 2,800 on death row. Many of those on death row will die imprisoned, rather than by execution. CA, for example, has 748 (I think) DR prisoners at present, 850 murderers have been sentenced to death since 1978. We've executed 13 men in all those years. People like to toss around the 'closure' word, but I tend to hate it. It insinuates, in my view, that the murder of a loved one can be appeased somehow. First off, *most* murderers won't be sentenced to death. Second, even those ones who are sentenced to death, will usually take many years before the sentence is actually carried out, when it's carried out. Also, when the state seeks a death sentence, there are two phases (at least in CA) of the murder trial. So, it is not unusual for the trial(s) to take 3 or more years. (Ours took 3 1/2 years) *If* a reason to execute murderers is 'closure', then, aren't all the murder victim's families entitled to said 'closure'... AND revenge? Please that word revenge belongs on the murderer shoulders, not the public. Sadly it is not about the victims family, nor is it about the guilty ones family. So, no one is entitled in my mind. We have three degree's of murder.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2018 12:48:13 GMT -6
My parents were pro, though I don't recall them ever really discussing it. I was pro. In fact, when I first came to this site, I was still pro (even though I'd delivered Jim's message to the prosecutor, and then the court, and finally, the jury, asking them for LWOP for his killer)... I remained pro, then stood looking around off the top of the fence for a year or more, here. Then, I jumped off. In other words, Jim started me wondering. This space made me an anti.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2018 12:55:26 GMT -6
There are something like 174,000 murderers imprisoned in the US, with maybe 2,800 on death row. Many of those on death row will die imprisoned, rather than by execution. CA, for example, has 748 (I think) DR prisoners at present, 850 murderers have been sentenced to death since 1978. We've executed 13 men in all those years. People like to toss around the 'closure' word, but I tend to hate it. It insinuates, in my view, that the murder of a loved one can be appeased somehow. First off, *most* murderers won't be sentenced to death. Second, even those ones who are sentenced to death, will usually take many years before the sentence is actually carried out, when it's carried out. Also, when the state seeks a death sentence, there are two phases (at least in CA) of the murder trial. So, it is not unusual for the trial(s) to take 3 or more years. (Ours took 3 1/2 years) *If* a reason to execute murderers is 'closure', then, aren't all the murder victim's families entitled to said 'closure'... AND revenge? Please that word revenge belongs on the murderer shoulders, not the public. Sadly it is not about the victims family, nor is it about the guilty ones family. So, no one is entitled in my mind. We have three degree's of murder. Sorry, I should have been clearer. My response was to Hawg's 'closure' and 'revenge' reasons. I agree with you that it's not about the families of either the victim, nor the perp's family. And, yet, both testify (if the wish to) during the penalty phase of the trial. But, I'm curious why you suggest that the 'revenge' aspect of execution is on the murderer and not the public?
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Post by whitediamonds on May 4, 2018 13:14:27 GMT -6
Revenge, some may feel that way, but the laws were not written for or about revenge. If the law was about revenge why do we have so many murders serving life, or being released in 20 yrs? Does that mean some families are more entitled? No.
Why is revenge on the perps shoulders, they are the ones who kill out of rage, hate,pleasure,anger & revenge ..those on DR believe they are entitled to their life no matter what.
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Post by deathcub2000 on May 4, 2018 13:22:52 GMT -6
OK, I'll step up to the plate. If you could guarantee that the person who murdered someone would never murder again, I would still be for the death penalty. On second thought, I would be for life in prison if the murderer would be in a cell with no access to anyone, no exercise , meals consisting of minimal nutrition requirements to sustain life, and no tv or radio. Why not put them on the same playing field as the person they murdered. But since that isn't possible, then yep, executions by all means.
I have said this before, the murderers have it so much better that the people that they murdered. The murderers are judge, jury, and prosecutor with no appeal process. The murdered have no defense, no appeals, and no choice on how they are going to die. They don't get the choice of a quick and easy death (for the most part) but are shot, sliced, stabbed, buried alive, strangled, drowned and bludgeoned with rocks, hammers, lumber and other instruments of torture, sometimes for hours. So do I have any sympathy for the murderers? Nope. Let em hang.
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Post by hawg on May 4, 2018 13:35:17 GMT -6
There are something like 174,000 murderers imprisoned in the US, with maybe 2,800 on death row. Many of those on death row will die imprisoned, rather than by execution. CA, for example, has 748 (I think) DR prisoners at present, 850 murderers have been sentenced to death since 1978. We've executed 13 men in all those years. People like to toss around the 'closure' word, but I tend to hate it. It insinuates, in my view, that the murder of a loved one can be appeased somehow. First off, *most* murderers won't be sentenced to death. Second, even those ones who are sentenced to death, will usually take many years before the sentence is actually carried out, when it's carried out. Also, when the state seeks a death sentence, there are two phases (at least in CA) of the murder trial. So, it is not unusual for the trial(s) to take 3 or more years. (Ours took 3 1/2 years) *If* a reason to execute murderers is 'closure', then, aren't all the murder victim's families entitled to said 'closure'... AND revenge? there are several reasons to kick someone off the planet. no one of them is absolute. you don't have to agree with them nor do they have to agree with you. all the reasons I listed are perfectly legit whether alone or in totality. it's completely up to the beholder. if any reason it makes one feel better, so be it. the original question was why we are pro or anti. and what would change us. in reading responses, apparently it is necessary to clarify that my reasons or anyone's reasons are simply that, someone's reasons. has nothing to do with laws or what they will and will not allow. also you make a good point as to why california is considered to be the most fornicated state in the country.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 4, 2018 14:22:31 GMT -6
There are something like 174,000 murderers imprisoned in the US, with maybe 2,800 on death row. Many of those on death row will die imprisoned, rather than by execution. CA, for example, has 748 (I think) 746 actually, of which 23 are female. You make good points.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 4, 2018 14:26:00 GMT -6
Would I still be pro if there was a PERFECT way to prevent them from killing again? No. I certainly would be. Capital punishment has nothing to do with likelihood of reoffense.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2018 14:41:23 GMT -6
While we're pondering...
Since *most* murderers will not get a death sentence (much less death), so that we do house most of them, wouldn't our money be better spent, our time and resources better utilized, and better 'justice' served on looking for ways that will better ensure none of them have an opportunity to murder again?
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Post by whitediamonds on May 4, 2018 14:54:04 GMT -6
Would I still be pro if there was a PERFECT way to prevent them from killing again? No. I certainly would be. Capital punishment has nothing to do with likelihood of reoffense. Knowing its a fantasy, sure I would say no.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 4, 2018 15:08:47 GMT -6
Since *most* murderers will not get a death sentence (much less death), so that we do house most of them, wouldn't our money be better spent, our time and resources better utilized, and better 'justice' served on looking for ways that will better ensure none of them have an opportunity to murder again? I think that's a red herring. The electorate doesn't much care if murderers continue to murder, since it paroles nearly all of them. The punishment of the crime of murder has more to do with the race of the victim than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2018 15:33:51 GMT -6
Since *most* murderers will not get a death sentence (much less death), so that we do house most of them, wouldn't our money be better spent, our time and resources better utilized, and better 'justice' served on looking for ways that will better ensure none of them have an opportunity to murder again? I think that's a red herring. The electorate doesn't much care if murderers continue to murder, since it paroles nearly all of them. In what way is it a red herring? And, yes, we do parole most murderers. Shame on us. Absolutely. If memory serves, in something like 80% of DP cases the victims have been white, even though statistically only 50% of victims were white. Guess maybe that's why our prosecutor felt our case against Sanchez was a 'slam dunk' (his word, not mine).
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Post by hawg on May 4, 2018 15:43:49 GMT -6
While we're pondering... Since *most* murderers will not get a death sentence (much less death), so that we do house most of them, wouldn't our money be better spent, our time and resources better utilized, and better 'justice' served on looking for ways that will better ensure none of them have an opportunity to murder again? look no further than gary gilmore to cover all your concerns here. about six months from arrest to execution. not a peep from him since jan 1977, not a dime spent on him since jan 1977. so why are there so many people STILL on death row when the answers are so simple? and effective.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 4, 2018 16:01:23 GMT -6
I am not being racist. Blacks murder more whites , than whites murder blacks.
A far number of blacks are being sent to the morgue by black killers.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 4, 2018 16:10:30 GMT -6
In what way is it a red herring? And, yes, we do parole most murderers. Shame on us. It's a red herring because the danger presented by paroled or incarcerated murderers is not what people care about. More than any other punishment, the death penalty is imposed in anger. Which probably explains why it's hardly used any more. 80% of DP cases the victims have been white, even though statistically only 50% of victims were white. The disparity is much greater if you factor in all murder cases, not just the capital ones. Where I live, most murders are unsolved, and of those that are solved, very few result in jury trials. They are bargained down to second-degree, which is a bullsh*t classification if there ever was one, or to manslaughter. Unless, of course, you happen to be white and living in the suburbs. Your murder suddenly becomes important.
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Post by bernard on May 5, 2018 15:18:39 GMT -6
Unless, of course, you happen to be white and living in the suburbs. Your murder suddenly becomes important. More ethno-Bolshevism from leftist Joe. I don't disapprove. Just marveling. Your new symbol should be a criss-crossed pinhead and sickle.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 20:13:47 GMT -6
I am not being racist. Blacks murder more whites , than whites murder blacks. A far number of blacks are being sent to the morgue by black killers. Absolutely!! And, most white victim are murdered by white murderers. Something like 84%. About 50% of murders involve black murderers. Around 15% of those we execute are black. Around 76% of those we sentence to death murdered white people. Do the math. Joe is absolutely right.
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Post by hawg on May 5, 2018 20:45:33 GMT -6
I am not being racist. Blacks murder more whites , than whites murder blacks. A far number of blacks are being sent to the morgue by black killers. Absolutely!! And, most white victim are murdered by white murderers. Something like 84%. About 50% of murders involve black murderers. Around 15% of those we execute are black. Around 76% of those we sentence to death murdered white people. Do the math. Joe is absolutely right. according to the fbi-ucr about 50% of all murders are committed by blacks, as you've said. but we execute only 15% ? and people claim DP is racist? how is that?
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2018 9:10:33 GMT -6
Absolutely!! And, most white victim are murdered by white murderers. Something like 84%. About 50% of murders involve black murderers. Around 15% of those we execute are black. Around 76% of those we sentence to death murdered white people. Do the math. Joe is absolutely right. according to the fbi-ucr about 50% of all murders are committed by blacks, as you've said. but we execute only 15% ? and people claim DP is racist? how is that? Because who gets sentenced to death is largely dependent upon the race of the victim, not the perpetrator.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2018 9:56:54 GMT -6
there are several reasons to kick someone off the planet. no one of them is absolute. you don't have to agree with them nor do they have to agree with you. all the reasons I listed are perfectly legit whether alone or in totality. it's completely up to the beholder. if any reason it makes one feel better, so be it. the original question was why we are pro or anti. and what would change us. in reading responses, apparently it is necessary to clarify that my reasons or anyone's reasons are simply that, someone's reasons. has nothing to do with laws or what they will and will not allow. Most murderers will not get a death sentence. Most won't even get LWOP. And, as Joe pointed out, most murders will be plea-bargained down to a lesser degree than Murder 1. Also, about 35% of murders go unsolved in the US, last I checked. For all these reasons, most MVS will have to forgo 'closure' or 'revenge'. Again, the question I have is, wouldn't we be doing ourselves (the state, the families of victims) more by capturing more of them, prosecuting more of them to the fullest, and incarcerating more of them with lengthier sentences than offing a very few of them? Wouldn't we all be safer? Wouldn't we be fairer?
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Post by josephdphillips on May 8, 2018 10:28:44 GMT -6
Most murderers will not get a death sentence. Most won't even get LWOP. And, as Joe pointed out, most murders will be plea-bargained down to a lesser degree than Murder 1. Also, about 35% of murders go unsolved in the US, last I checked. For all these reasons, most MVS will have to forgo 'closure' or 'revenge'. Again, the question I have is, wouldn't we be doing ourselves (the state, the families of victims) more by capturing more of them, prosecuting more of them to the fullest, and incarcerating more of them with lengthier sentences than offing a very few of them? Wouldn't we all be safer? Wouldn't we be fairer? Murder is a crime, not a tort. The punishment of a crime should be determined by the electorate, not by particularly interested parties. Unfortunately, most voters would answer "no" to your question. Moreover, they are not as committed to killing even the so-called "worst of the worst" murderers as they would have pollsters believe. Probably because of Christianity, murder is not considered a big deal here.
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Post by oslooskar on May 8, 2018 10:57:59 GMT -6
Probably because of Christianity, murder is not considered a big deal here. Okay, Joseph, I'm NOT a Christian but I'll take the bait. Why is that so?
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Post by bernard on May 8, 2018 11:30:05 GMT -6
Probably because of Christianity, murder is not considered a big deal here. Okay, Joseph, I'm NOT a Christian but I'll take the bait. Why is that so? For soy latte leftists like Joe, the aim of the game is to criticize traditional Western institutions and values while putting the alternatives beyond criticism. For example, Joe will labor to carve out consistent ways (on the other thread) to put the barbarous actions of other religions beyond criticism while (on this one) sentencing the smallest flaws in the Christian religion to the harshest possible censure. This kind of thing is quite à la mode among California progressives.
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Post by hawg on May 8, 2018 11:35:07 GMT -6
there are several reasons to kick someone off the planet. no one of them is absolute. you don't have to agree with them nor do they have to agree with you. all the reasons I listed are perfectly legit whether alone or in totality. it's completely up to the beholder. if any reason it makes one feel better, so be it. the original question was why we are pro or anti. and what would change us. in reading responses, apparently it is necessary to clarify that my reasons or anyone's reasons are simply that, someone's reasons. has nothing to do with laws or what they will and will not allow. Most murderers will not get a death sentence. Most won't even get LWOP. And, as Joe pointed out, most murders will be plea-bargained down to a lesser degree than Murder 1. Also, about 35% of murders go unsolved in the US, last I checked. For all these reasons, most MVS will have to forgo 'closure' or 'revenge'. Again, the question I have is, wouldn't we be doing ourselves (the state, the families of victims) more by capturing more of them, prosecuting more of them to the fullest, and incarcerating more of them with lengthier sentences than offing a very few of them? Wouldn't we all be safer? Wouldn't we be fairer? Fairer? You do realize what "fair" is right? It's competition for cows.. and just because everybody can't have closure or revenge doesn't mean nobody should.
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Post by hawg on May 8, 2018 11:43:15 GMT -6
according to the fbi-ucr about 50% of all murders are committed by blacks, as you've said. but we execute only 15% ? and people claim DP is racist? how is that? Because who gets sentenced to death is largely dependent upon the race of the victim, not the perpetrator. Sometime ago I was looking at a chart from DPIC. It showed blacks or minorities or people of color (I can't recall) being sentenced to death at a slightly higher rate than whites. BUT in the same charts whites were ACTUALLY executed at about the same higher rate . Thats called a wash. The question is NOT the color of the victim but only the guilt of the perpetrator. All else is just sidebar deflection.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 8, 2018 11:43:15 GMT -6
For soy latte leftists like Joe, the aim of the game is to criticize traditional Western institutions and values while putting the alternatives beyond criticism. For example, Joe will labor to carve out consistent ways (on the other thread) to put the barbarous actions of other religions beyond criticism while (on this one) sentencing the smallest flaws in the Christian religion to the harshest possible censure. This kind of thing is quite à la mode among California progressives. I don't know where you come up with this crap. I'm probably the most anti-progressive person in the country. I voted Trump the first time and will again. No one despises the muzzies and Democrats more than I. Your criticism of islam is only contemptible because, like most lefties, you refuse to do anything about it.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 8, 2018 11:56:09 GMT -6
I'm NOT a Christian but I'll take the bait. Why is that so? Christians are obsessed with life everlasting. The lives of the slain, therefore, are worth that much less. A Christian will even look you in the eye and tell you your murdered loved one has gone to a "better place."
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Post by bernard on May 8, 2018 12:19:47 GMT -6
For soy latte leftists like Joe, the aim of the game is to criticize traditional Western institutions and values while putting the alternatives beyond criticism. For example, Joe will labor to carve out consistent ways (on the other thread) to put the barbarous actions of other religions beyond criticism while (on this one) sentencing the smallest flaws in the Christian religion to the harshest possible censure. This kind of thing is quite à la mode among California progressives. I don't know where you come up with this crap. I'm probably the most anti-progressive person in the country. It's easy to say so. My point is that you waddle around wearing your elephant badge but quacking for all the world like Karl M. Gaylord McLeftist. It's not a criticism. Though I stop well short of postmodernism, people here know my liberal sympathies. But you should either be more self-aware, or more open about what you're trying to do here. Even assuming that's true* Trump is a man without a category. Despite the considerable bleating of the sore losers, and setting aside his inflammatory rhetoric, on a policy by policy breakdown, I'd put him slightly left of Clinton. As did the union workers of Kentucky, Ohio and Pennsylvania. *Not calling you a liar. Just appreciating that as a postmodernist, you don't believe in truth. You only believe in power and what it takes to wrench it from the hands of the privileged.
Charming. But I note that this inauthentic hate speech comes only when you're exposed as a SoCal college leftist. The rest of the time you've been here, you have shown a consistent reluctance to engage in substantial criticism of non-Christian religions and other cultures, preferring instead to criticize the privilege and entitlement of whites, Christians and American society. Again, I think there are lots of fair minded points of that sort to be made. I just wonder why you are fighting beneath a false flag.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 10:09:38 GMT -6
Because who gets sentenced to death is largely dependent upon the race of the victim, not the perpetrator. Sometime ago I was looking at a chart from DPIC. It showed blacks or minorities or people of color (I can't recall) being sentenced to death at a slightly higher rate than whites. BUT in the same charts whites were ACTUALLY executed at about the same higher rate . Thats called a wash. The question is NOT the color of the victim but only the guilt of the perpetrator. All else is just sidebar deflection. As I said, it's not about the race of the murderer, but the victim. Approximately 75% of those we've executed since 1976 murdered white victims. deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976
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Post by hawg on May 10, 2018 11:16:01 GMT -6
Sometime ago I was looking at a chart from DPIC. It showed blacks or minorities or people of color (I can't recall) being sentenced to death at a slightly higher rate than whites. BUT in the same charts whites were ACTUALLY executed at about the same higher rate . Thats called a wash. The question is NOT the color of the victim but only the guilt of the perpetrator. All else is just sidebar deflection. As I said, it's not about the race of the murderer, but the victim. Approximately 75% of those we've executed since 1976 murdered white victims. deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976 And as I said the only question is were the perps found guilty. Then execute them. Sounds like more convicted people should be executed to cover the faux racism you're trying to promote. Im all for it.
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