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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 11:51:31 GMT -6
questioning the dp, don't know which side. this article sounds good. what do you think about these arguments? Thnx
Say No to Capital Punishment
By Patrick Gage
Since 1976, 1,292 people have been executed in the United States. Want to know who’s ahead of us? Nations like China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Egypt have far outpaced our rate of execution in the past several decades. The very fact that these are the countries that can outpace us in execution speaks volumes. The death penalty, and every argument for it, is crushed by logic. Does it deter crime? No. Is everyone who is executed guilty? No. Does it cost more to incarcerate someone for life than it does to execute them? No. There was a time and place for capital punishment: Back in the days when maximum security prisons didn’t exist, and prisoners regularly escaped. Now, though, with maximum security prisons in every American state, we no longer need this antiquated and unjustifiable mean of punishment. The solution to this problem is simple: A federal constitutional amendment that bans the death penalty. Every study done on deterrence has found that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than states without the death penalty. Cases in which the death penalty is pursued can cost millions of dollars, and in some cases, they can cost 3 times the amount of a case in which life-imprisonment is pursued. Furthermore, the cost of keeping a criminal in prison for his or her entire life is less than cost of executing that person. So why, I ask, do we continue to support this “penalty” that costs more than life without parole and does nothing in terms of deterrence? Quite frankly, I’m at a loss. People can beat their heads against a wall for years and it’s still not going to move. The facts are the facts; no one can change that. Removing political bias, the death penalty is a complete failure. It costs too much, doesn’t deter crime, and kills innocent people. Don’t believe me? What about Cameron Todd Willingham? Or Troy Davis? Or Robert Waterhouse? These men, and countless others, were most likely innocent when they were executed. This should anger people. Instead, one GOP primary voter who was asked about Rick Perry’s execution record, and specifically the execution of Mr. Willingham, claimed that it “takes balls to execute an innocent man”. The resounding applause that Perry received at a September 2011 Presidential debate after being asked about his execution record cemented in my mind the backwardness of some people in this nation. There are innocent men and women being executed by a law that costs more than life in prison and doesn’t deter crime. How can you applaud that? The death penalty is too expensive, fails at its job, and kills innocent people. If a law that is meant to deter crime cannot do its job, why is it still a law? That question perplexes me, and I fear that it applies to more laws than just this one. Hopefully, America will eventually understand why much of the world has rejected this form of punishment. I have no problem convicting someone to life without the chance of parole. That, to me, is the best way to severely punish violent criminals. Killing them doesn’t help anyone…so why do we do it?
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Post by josephdphillips on Oct 21, 2012 12:38:36 GMT -6
questioning the dp, don't know which side. this article sounds good. what do you think about these arguments? A punishment of death isn't any different than any other punishment. It's simply more severe. Retribution is what it is. It's a collective expression of how the majority feels about a particular criminal act. It can, but isn't meant to, deter criminal behavior. Deterrence is just a bonus. I have no problem with the death penalty because I have no problem with retribution.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 14:00:52 GMT -6
but why is lwop not severe enough when it comes to retribution?
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Post by josephdphillips on Oct 21, 2012 15:51:20 GMT -6
but why is lwop not severe enough when it comes to retribution? I have no problem with automatic, determinate sentencing. An automatic LWOP for murder is fine with me. It isn't necessary to repeal the death penalty to get rid of it. Everyone knows that already. Capital punishment is now mostly used as a bargaining chip, to force murderers to plead guilty and accept LWOP instead, and that saves the taxpayers a lot of money. That's why people who oppose executions, like the majority of Californians, are loathe to repeal the punishment itself. Repeal the death penalty and you have that many more murderers pleading to second degree murder rather than first degree murder, which means LWOP will cease to exist.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 14:01:34 GMT -6
Thnx for your answer, kind of funny to keep the dp as a bargaining chip but good to know that automatic lwop for murder would be fine for you. for me it's the same, i think (so far).
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Post by starbux on Oct 25, 2012 11:11:41 GMT -6
LWOP does not prevent the murderer from killing again. Two Cases that prove this one is the Murder of South Dakota prison guard RJ Johnson. And the other was two Arizona Escapees killed an Oklahoma couple in New Mexico.
Death is the only way to ensure that they will not ever be released and that they will never kill again.
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Post by starbux on Oct 25, 2012 11:17:08 GMT -6
questioning the dp, don't know which side. this article sounds good. what do you think about these arguments? Thnx Say No to Capital Punishment By Patrick Gage Since 1976, 1,292 people have been executed in the United States. Want to know who’s ahead of us? Nations like China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Egypt have far outpaced our rate of execution in the past several decades. Those countries you can get the death penalty for lesser offenses. Particularly, the islamic countries death is given for Homosexuality, Blasphemy against god, drug possession in addition to murder.
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Post by starbux on Oct 25, 2012 11:34:33 GMT -6
It does not deter because we don't use it enough. I looked at the numbers on deterence and it is a wash. Murder rates per 100,000 people are almost the same. Punishment in general does not have an effect LWOP or DP. There are other factors that effect crime. States with higher murder rates, tend to be clustered in dense metro areas.
It cost too much because the left has sabotaged the punishment in most states by allowing endless appeals. The constitution says you have the right to appeal, but not too appeal and appeal and appeal every freakin part of the trial transcript. You should get one appeal, that's it. The trial takes 6 months the appeal process should not take 20 years. There are 20 years of appeals in cases where there is no doubt in guilt. Deffence Attornies are allowed to abuse the appeals process time after time for things already ruled on such as: Using the Tard card "Condemmned To stupid to be put down," or the method of execution is cruel, or they try to prove the prisoner is insane.
Texas wanted to execute Anthony Haynes but he keeps on getting appeals that get him out of it.
He has admitted to the press for committing his crime of killing a cop. All of his appeals have been pure bull *crap*. He appealed once saying that not having enough Black jurors gave him the death sentence. Now he is trying to say that his defense Atty's did not provide enough character whiteness on his behalf to mitigate death. In Texas, for shooting a cop! You can be mother Theresa in Texas and get the DP.
So my point is that if the appeals process were streamlined then death would not cost as much money and would be the better alternative all around.
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Post by starbux on Oct 25, 2012 11:39:09 GMT -6
but why is lwop not severe enough when it comes to retribution? Because the ACLU and the othe human rights organizations have made prison a joke. They are not allowed to keep prisioners locked up in their cells during the day. Federal judges have ruled that it is cruel punishment, if they do not have access to TV's candy and soda pop during the day. Prisoners life should be wake up in the morning go to breakfast. For the low threat inmates, goto work in the prison industry. IF they are not bathing eating or working they should be in their cells without TV. For recreation they should only get one hour a day.
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Oct 25, 2012 14:41:07 GMT -6
"I must be executed before I have an opportunity to escape or kill someone within the prison. If I do escape, I promise you I will kill prison guards if I have to and rape and enjoy every minute of it." While in court he said that, if he escaped from jail, he would immediately go back to "killing and raping kids."
Westley Alan Dodd
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Post by Donnie on Oct 27, 2012 11:13:58 GMT -6
questioning the dp, don't know which side. this article sounds good. what do you think about these arguments? Thnx They are the same phoney arguments that have been around for decades. I used to believe them until I started thinking about them.
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Post by Donnie on Oct 27, 2012 11:18:01 GMT -6
but why is lwop not severe enough when it comes to retribution? Retribution is not the issue. That is a false claim. The pursuit of justice is the isse, a basic component of civilization. LWOP is a phoney issue. Some of the same people who campaign against the DP are already campaigning against LWOP. It is called "the other death penalty". There is even an anti-LWOP organization by that name. A few months ago there was an article about it in The Progressive magazine. The consensus of the anti-DP crusaders in the article was that LWOP was valid ONLY as a tool to trick people into opposing the DP.
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Post by Donnie on Oct 27, 2012 11:21:45 GMT -6
LWOP does not prevent the murderer from killing again. Two Cases that prove this one is the Murder of South Dakota prison guard RJ Johnson. And the other was two Arizona Escapees killed an Oklahoma couple in New Mexico. For those opposed to the DP, the actual deaths of real innocent people do not matter; only the imaginary deaths of imaginary innocent people that might die some time in the future. The examples you gave are not isolated cases. Hundreds of actual innoncent people have been really killed by murderers who were not executed after their first murder convictions.
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Post by whitediamonds on Oct 27, 2012 11:23:19 GMT -6
LWOP does not prevent the murderer from killing again. Two Cases that prove this one is the Murder of South Dakota prison guard RJ Johnson. And the other was two Arizona Escapees killed an Oklahoma couple in New Mexico. For those opposed to the DP, the actual deaths of real innocent people do not matter; only the imaginary deaths of imaginary innocent people that might die some time in the future. The examples you gave are not isolated cases. Hundreds of actual innoncent people have been really killed by murderers who were not executed after their first murder convictions. Exactly !!! Also imaginary is an important word here,,
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Post by whitediamonds on Oct 27, 2012 11:53:01 GMT -6
but why is lwop not severe enough when it comes to retribution? Retribution is not the issue. That is a false claim. The pursuit of justice is the isse, a basic component of civilization. LWOP is a phoney issue. Some of the same people who campaign against the DP are already campaigning against LWOP. It is called "the other death penalty". There is even an anti-LWOP organization by that name. A few months ago there was an article about it in The Progressive magazine. The consensus of the anti-DP crusaders in the article was that LWOP was valid ONLY as a tool to trick people into opposing the DP. Reality spoken yet again !!! trashing myth with facts.
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Post by Potassium_Pixie on Oct 28, 2012 4:38:35 GMT -6
Repeal the death penalty and you have that many more murderers pleading to second degree murder rather than first degree murder, which means LWOP will cease to exist. And you know once they get rid of the DP, the soft-hearted Antis will be gunning for LWOP and then saying that 25 to life is too "excessive"
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Post by Donnie on Oct 28, 2012 15:35:25 GMT -6
And you know once they get rid of the DP, the soft-hearted Antis will be gunning for LWOP and then saying that 25 to life is too "excessive" The Anti-Justice League can't even wait. They are already calling LWOP the "other death penalty" while crusading against it.
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Post by Stormyweather on Oct 28, 2012 17:43:10 GMT -6
Every study done on deterrence has found that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than states without the death penalty. I've seen this argument before. The argument makes it seem like that the murder rate would go down if there were no dp in these states. Can you prove that would happen? Maybe they have the dp because of the higher murder rate.
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Post by Stormyweather on Oct 28, 2012 17:50:38 GMT -6
The solution to this problem is simple: A federal constitutional amendment that bans the death penalty. Won't happen, at least for now.
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Post by Stormyweather on Oct 28, 2012 17:52:03 GMT -6
The death penalty is too expensive, You'd be amazed that those who have lost loved ones to murder think it is worth it.
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Post by starbux on Oct 28, 2012 20:30:32 GMT -6
Every study done on deterrence has found that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than states without the death penalty. I've seen this argument before. The argument makes it seem like that the murder rate would go down if there were no dp in these states. Can you prove that would happen? Maybe they have the dp because of the higher murder rate. They fail look at all of the factors on why crime is there in the first place. I went to the DP info site which is ran by ANTI's I ran the numbers looking at several causal factors that seem significant. I found that states with or without the DP have the same murder rates if they have larger metropolitan centers ie cities with at least a million people. I also note states that have the DP and have high murder rates are states that do not use it that much. New Mexico had a high rate of crime when we had the death penalty but it has nothing to with the penalty. We very seldom used it. Whenever prosecutors in NM tried to get the DP it would be denied in court because the defense lawyers would always move the venues to Santa Fe where it is extreme left wing. The NM Death row only has a few people left waiting execution. In my opinion if you commit heinous murder knowing that the DP is a potential concupiscence than you would deserve it tenfold.
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Post by Potassium_Pixie on Oct 29, 2012 1:19:18 GMT -6
Speaking of Eric Robert, he killed RJ Johnson last year in 2011. Did he waive all of his appeals?
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Post by Stormyweather on Oct 29, 2012 8:36:31 GMT -6
Speaking of Eric Robert, he killed RJ Johnson last year in 2011. Did he waive all of his appeals? As far as I know he waived them all.
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Post by Stormyweather on Oct 29, 2012 8:38:13 GMT -6
but why is lwop not severe enough when it comes to retribution? Because LWOP isn't automatic anymore than the dp is.
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Post by Potassium_Pixie on Oct 31, 2012 11:03:15 GMT -6
Its like I said before, LWOP is next on the extremist antis hit list. Then it will be 25 years.
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Post by starbux on Nov 1, 2012 5:27:09 GMT -6
Than they will want them to get a fine and community service. If the antis have there way a speeding ticket will be more severe than murder. Those pieces of *crap*
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 1, 2012 8:01:31 GMT -6
Anti's argue The anit's state,how can we judge what the potential of a murderer to murder again is in the future on sentencing. Yet, on the other side of the coin, how can it be judged a murderer will not murder again" that they are now rehabilitated , then released onto society, the potential in the " future" is they will not murder again Heck of a risk really playing the odds for another murder...yet again . To add: the antis make no sense. Gee,we can tell this guy/gal's future potential now. Please do not give me the next anti agrument, being people change. When talking about murderer's
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 1, 2012 10:22:26 GMT -6
Than they will want them to get a fine and community service. If the antis have there way a speeding ticket will be more severe than murder. Those pieces of *crap* Yeah thats right, I spend all my time campaigning locally to have greater fins and punishments for speeders than there is for murder. I just love these urban hysterical myths a few pro folk dream up to fill the acheing gap where a lack or real arguement is so apparent.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Nov 1, 2012 10:26:27 GMT -6
Than they will want them to get a fine and community service. If the antis have there way a speeding ticket will be more severe than murder. Those pieces of *crap* Yeah thats right, I spend all my time campaigning locally to have greater fins and punishments for speeders than there is for murder. I just love these urban hysterical myths a few pro folk dream up to fill the acheing gap where a lack or real arguement is so apparent. But, then it really depends on which pro and anti are arguing now doesn't it Felix?
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Nov 1, 2012 11:04:26 GMT -6
Than they will want them to get a fine and community service. If the antis have there way a speeding ticket will be more severe than murder. Those pieces of *crap* I thought by logging in to this forum you have accepted the forum rules which require you to post in a civilized manner. I'd prefer not to be referred to as a "piece of crap", especially as I haven't done anything to you. Thank you.
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