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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Oct 2, 2011 7:15:24 GMT -6
Last night, after a three hour delay while the Supreme Court reviewed --and rejected-- his appeal, Troy Davis was strapped to a gurney and brought into the death chamber at a jail in Jackson, Georgia. A needle running harmless saline solution through a tube was inserted into his arm; he then lifted his head to speak to those witnessing his death through the glass; still to the end pleading his innocence.
Minutes later a combination of chemicals was passed through his veins and in 15 minutes time, after shutting his eyes one last time and falling asleep, he stopped breathing, his heart stopped pumping and he died, pretty peacefully. Putting down the family dog would have been a worse.
Far from an execution, this was more like state-ordered euthanasia.
The average person going into any Accident and Emergency department would have had a more painful experience as doctors jab, prod and shock people in an effort to keep them alive than we do to put some to death. Most states in America now execute criminals by lethal injection. No longer the firing squad or the electric chair. Unlike the United Kingdom --though our history is much much shorter, did we ever go in for the barbaric methods of drawing and quartering, disemboweling or be-heading (still used in some Arab countries).
Execution in America is far from common --like the Chinese who find execution a simple method to rid themselves of a drugs problem, or Mr. Ahmadinijad who claims his country has "no gays"-- it is used only for the most heineous crimes. It is not barbaric; nor is there need for all the barbaric torture associated with the likes of Guy Fawkes and his gang; because is is not about vengence or retrubution but it serves a simple purpose. It balanaces the scales of justice and in the process shows to what extent a society really values the lives of its citizenry.
In simplistic terms think of it like one of those self-service scales in Tesco. If I push the illuminated button for 'bannanas' and the little sticky tag comes out I expect it to fall in a certain price range. Too much and I don't buy -- but also, if too little, just pennies, I am suspiecous too. Why so cheap, what's wrong here? They mustn't be that good if they are worth so little.
Troy Davis was not only accuseed, but convicted handilly of the cold-blooded shooting of a cop, Mark McPhail, in front of dozens of witnesses in a Burger King parking lot in August 1989. This was only a few hours after shooting at a passing car while exiting a party. Officer McPhail had intervened when he saw Davis pistol whipping a vagrant. Davis, "wheeled around" and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, "smililng."
Davis was not the only person executed last night --though having received what author Ann Coulter describes as "baby seal" status, his execution is getting the most press and howls of hysteria from the left. There has been a firestorm on Twitter; as if a bunch of people can decide a case better in 140 characters than the American justice system. In Davis's case that included 34 state witnesses (not the 9 the press keep refering to), the jury of his peers including seven blacks and five whites who took less than two hours to convict him, or the many retrails, appeals, calls for clemency and protestations of innocence over the last two decades. All denied for a simple reason. He did it and was guilty as hell.
The other execution took place in Texas. White supremecist gang member, Lawrence Russel Brewer. The case so shocking I actually remember it. Brewer, 49 until sometime last night, chained a black man, James Byrd Jr., to the back of his pickup truck and pulled him "whip-like" to his death over a bumpy ashpalt road. Great way for someone to get their kicks, huh?
There's another case from the state of Conneticut that deserves mention. One of the two perpatrators has been convicted; the other awaiting trail. This is what they did to the Petit family according to one news report:
"As a police officer approached the home of the Petit family in Cheshire, Conn., on the morning of July 23, 2007, two men ran from the scene as flames poured out of the house. They were quickly apprehended.
"When officers returned to the house they found Dr. William A. Petit Jr., 50, who had been severely beaten, and the bodies of his wife, Jennifer Hawke-Petit, 48, and their daughters, Hayley, 17, and Michaela, 11. The police said that the victims had been tied up in separate rooms, and that Ms. Hawke-Petit and one of the daughters [the 11 year old] were sexually assaulted before the house was set on fire."
The two men were both convicted felons out on parol. During the trial when a police interview tape was played of one of the defendents calmly discussing what he had done, the trial had to be stopped as the evidence made one juror physically sick.
Getting back to that Great Tesco Scale of life... If I was to put the lives of Officer McPhail, shot in cold blood; James Byrd, dragged to a grizzly death; or the Petit girls and their mom, raped and killed -- what is the price that would come up? How much would there lives be worth?
In this country, how much is the life of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman from Soham worth? Or Keith Bennet, whose body was never found, and the others sexually assaulted and murdered by Ian Brady and the late Myra Hindley. Brady will only die in prison not becaue of a life sentence that means life, but because officially he is locked up in a mental institution for his own safety.
In this country there is no death penalty -- and life doesn't even mean life.
What is the life of James Bulger worth -- what little there was, he was tortured and murdered at the age of two. Robert Thompson and Jon Venables not only didn't get life -- they got new lives at a cost of millions to the taxpayer. Venables is only back in prison after downloading porn.
Did the scales of justice really balance in these cases?
I am not surprised that there is no capital punishment in the U.K. and the rest of the European Union. The E.U. and people like Bianca Jagger who is there good will ambassador against the death penalty ("Good will" is that like an anti-executioning Avon lady!) will tell you how enlightened they are.
But I don't see any enlightenment --or indeed consitency-- on the left. The only consistency is the fact that the liberal intelectual elite is secularist, and puts no stock or sacredness in the value of life. They do not protect the lives of the unborn; euthanasia --and not jsut for the terminally ill-- is toted as an ideal over palliative care; and in the case of heinous crimes they opt to protect the lives of the murderers over the victims.
The United Kingdom doesn’t have a death penalty and in cases like the Soham Murders, the Moors, Bulger, Fred West – ones so shocking that even execution is considered a proportional and measured response – this is a shame. The abolition of a death penalty here is not the sign of some form of modern day enlightenment but in fact just the opposite. If anything it is a sign of moral weakness, of a society that is so afraid of its own barbarity that it cannot grasp the difference or distinguish between justice and revenge. Instead like a deer frozen in the headlights of the sometimes scary demands of justice it does nothing; a community so scared to act in case it gets the justice confused with revenge will let both perpetrators and victims (mainly their families) suffer for a lifetime instead. Ultimately it is the sign of a society that will not take on the duty to protect its citizens or stand up to the responsibilities and demands of justice. Justice is more than a set of laws; it is the ability to fairly adjudge crimes, set fitting penalties, and then have the courage to carry out that which justice demands. If the penalty falls far short of the crime then eventually the crime itself is trivialised and so are the rest of us.
The lack of a death penalty in Europe is the product of the fodder of European liberal intellectualism as much as it is a state’s refususal to take responsibility for the protection of its citizens. The abolition of death penalty was not a product of the socialist working class but of the intellectual liberal classes of Oxford and Cambridge in the sixties that hijacked left. It is a product of the same “Civilised Society” of the late Roy Jenkins (who as British Home Secretary nixed the noose in his criminal justice act of 1967), as is abortion and many of the other social problems we suffer with today as a result of the sixties.
The deterrent effects of the death penalty in the United States are incontrovertible. One only has to look at studies and statistics concerning murderers who have been let out only to kill again to realise that the death penalty does work as a deterrent – if not for others, at least for the killer in question. It can also be argued that some crimes, so repugnant and horrific that the death penalty is the only morally appropriate response, particularly to satisfy the families of the victims and to protect the wider community.
Capital punishment is punishment for grown up societies -- not cowering in the face of the mass injustice of murder.
For some murders here where life means twenty-five to thirty years a life sentence is not enough. Not in twenty-five years, not ever.
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Post by whitediamonds on Oct 2, 2011 9:15:01 GMT -6
Far from an execution, this was more like state-ordered euthanasia. Execution in America is far from common --like the Chinese who find execution a simple method to rid themselves of a drugs problem, or Mr. Ahmadinijad who claims his country has "no gays"-- it is used only for the most heineous crimes. It is not barbaric; nor is there need for all the barbaric torture associated with the likes of Guy Fawkes and his gang; because is is not about vengence or retrubution but it serves a simple purpose. It balanaces the scales of justice and in the process shows to what extent a society really values the lives of its citizenry. Troy Davis was not only accuseed, but convicted handilly of the cold-blooded shooting of a cop, Mark McPhail, in front of dozens of witnesses in a Burger King parking lot in August 1989. This was only a few hours after shooting at a passing car while exiting a party. Officer McPhail had intervened when he saw Davis pistol whipping a vagrant. Davis, "wheeled around" and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, "smililng." If a bunch of people can decide a case better in 140 characters than the American justice system. In Davis's case that included 34 state witnesses (not the 9 the press keep refering to), the jury of his peers including seven blacks and five whites who took less than two hours to convict him, or the many retrails, appeals, calls for clemency and protestations of innocence over the last two decades. All denied for a simple reason. He did it and was guilty as hell. I am not surprised that there is no capital punishment in the U.K. and the rest of the European Union. The E.U. and people like Bianca Jagger who is there good will ambassador against the death penalty ("Good will" is that like an anti-executioning Avon lady!) will tell you how enlightened they are. But I don't see any enlightenment --or indeed consitency-- on the left. The only consistency is the fact that the liberal intelectual elite is secularist, and puts no stock or sacredness in the value of life. They do not protect the lives of the unborn; euthanasia --and not jsut for the terminally ill-- is toted as an ideal over palliative care; and in the case of heinous crimes they opt to protect the lives of the murderers over the victims. The United Kingdom doesn’t have a death penalty and in cases like the Soham Murders, the Moors, Bulger, Fred West – ones so shocking that even execution is considered a proportional and measured response – this is a shame. The abolition of a death penalty here is not the sign of some form of modern day enlightenment but in fact just the opposite. If anything it is a sign of moral weakness, of a society that is so afraid of its own barbarity that it cannot grasp the difference or distinguish between justice and revenge. Instead like a deer frozen in the headlights of the sometimes scary demands of justice it does nothing; a community so scared to act in case it gets the justice confused with revenge will let both perpetrators and victims (mainly their families) suffer for a lifetime instead. Ultimately it is the sign of a society that will not take on the duty to protect its citizens or stand up to the responsibilities and demands of justice. Justice is more than a set of laws; it is the ability to fairly adjudge crimes, set fitting penalties, and then have the courage to carry out that which justice demands. If the penalty falls far short of the crime then eventually the crime itself is trivialised and so are the rest of us. The lack of a death penalty in Europe is the product of the fodder of European liberal intellectualism as much as it is a state’s refususal to take responsibility for the protection of its citizens. The abolition of death penalty was not a product of the socialist working class but of the intellectual liberal classes of Oxford and Cambridge in the sixties that hijacked left. It is a product of the same “Civilised Society” of the late Roy Jenkins (who as British Home Secretary nixed the noose in his criminal justice act of 1967), as is abortion and many of the other social problems we suffer with today as a result of the sixties. The deterrent effects of the death penalty in the United States are incontrovertible. One only has to look at studies and statistics concerning murderers who have been let out only to kill again to realise that the death penalty does work as a deterrent – if not for others, at least for the killer in question. It can also be argued that some crimes, so repugnant and horrific that the death penalty is the only morally appropriate response, particularly to satisfy the families of the victims and to protect the wider community. Capital punishment is punishment for grown up societies -- not cowering in the face of the mass injustice of murder. For some murders here where life means twenty-five to thirty years a life sentence is not enough. Not in twenty-five years, not ever. The above are strong points and why I am pro DP  My thoughts exactly.......... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2012 16:46:34 GMT -6
The laws in this country leave much to be desired. Why does it take 10 or 15 or even 20 years for a death sentence to be carried out! Are the jurors not sure of themselves or each other? Are judges not sure of themselves or each other? Are there too many laws and too many lawyers in this country? Why the delay in carrying out a death penalty? If DNA is a question, do the comparisons BEFORE the trial is over and there won't be a delay afterwards while waiting for DNA results.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for two years in the late 80's and I witnessed 2 public executions. One was for murder and the other for drug trafficking. Both were Pakistanis. They were led from an ambulance blindfolded, obviously drugged. They were escorted to the end of a red carpet in a Moscue parking lot and placed on their hands and knees. These were done at 2 separate times. With one swift swipe, they were beheaded and their heads rolled into the parking lot. On the same day, in a different part of the country, the hands of 4 different Phillipinos were removed in a similar fashion for stealing.
These were some of the most impressive sights I have ever seen. Can you imagine the effect of seeing this on nationwide television in this country?! The crime rate would drop out the bottom.
But, then again...are there too many laws and definitely too many lawyers in this country? Being more civilized has nothing to do with it. If that were the case, there would be no death penalty for anything.
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Post by josephdphillips on Apr 11, 2012 9:16:58 GMT -6
The laws in this country leave much to be desired. Why does it take 10 or 15 or even 20 years for a death sentence to be carried out! Are the jurors not sure of themselves or each other? Are judges not sure of themselves or each other? Are there too many laws and too many lawyers in this country? Why the delay in carrying out a death penalty? If DNA is a question, do the comparisons BEFORE the trial is over and there won't be a delay afterwards while waiting for DNA results. I lived in Saudi Arabia for two years in the late 80's and I witnessed 2 public executions. One was for murder and the other for drug trafficking. Both were Pakistanis. They were led from an ambulance blindfolded, obviously drugged. They were escorted to the end of a red carpet in a Moscue parking lot and placed on their hands and knees. These were done at 2 separate times. With one swift swipe, they were beheaded and their heads rolled into the parking lot. On the same day, in a different part of the country, the hands of 4 different Phillipinos were removed in a similar fashion for stealing. These were some of the most impressive sights I have ever seen. Can you imagine the effect of seeing this on nationwide television in this country?! The crime rate would drop out the bottom. But, then again...are there too many laws and definitely too many lawyers in this country? Being more civilized has nothing to do with it. If that were the case, there would be no death penalty for anything. The Saudis have morals. Americans do not. |
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Post by Felix2 on Apr 11, 2012 9:53:14 GMT -6
The laws in this country leave much to be desired. Why does it take 10 or 15 or even 20 years for a death sentence to be carried out! Are the jurors not sure of themselves or each other? Are judges not sure of themselves or each other? Are there too many laws and too many lawyers in this country? Why the delay in carrying out a death penalty? If DNA is a question, do the comparisons BEFORE the trial is over and there won't be a delay afterwards while waiting for DNA results. I lived in Saudi Arabia for two years in the late 80's and I witnessed 2 public executions. One was for murder and the other for drug trafficking. Both were Pakistanis. They were led from an ambulance blindfolded, obviously drugged. They were escorted to the end of a red carpet in a Moscue parking lot and placed on their hands and knees. These were done at 2 separate times. With one swift swipe, they were beheaded and their heads rolled into the parking lot. On the same day, in a different part of the country, the hands of 4 different Phillipinos were removed in a similar fashion for stealing. These were some of the most impressive sights I have ever seen. Can you imagine the effect of seeing this on nationwide television in this country?! The crime rate would drop out the bottom. But, then again...are there too many laws and definitely too many lawyers in this country? Being more civilized has nothing to do with it. If that were the case, there would be no death penalty for anything. Well Tallen, osunds great does'nt, swift so called justice, but then life is not so black and white in the real honest World. Are you seriously telling me hand on heart that you have no doubt such sentences for stealing or murder are without a doubt fair accross the board there? Because to do so, you have to be certain that those classes who pass such judgements are absolutley free from criminal or morally defunct behaviour themselves. If you are sur that they are, then you have a bigger difficulty than I originally though as your understanding of the nature of mankind ion general is way up the spout. Wheter you believe in Jesus or not is not relevant but when he reportedly said to those who were about to stone that woman to death "let those without sin cast the first stone", it mirrors what my experiences of sociaety at large have been. There is corruption everywhere. Its just that with some they have neither the sophistication or the means or the support to keep their deed hidden. That in short is basically probably my biggest issue with the DP, it involves humans judging humans. |
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