Tim S
Old Hand
Posts: 567
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Post by Tim S on Mar 24, 2009 0:55:23 GMT -6
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Post by lawrence on Mar 24, 2009 1:17:09 GMT -6
Yeah i saw this report this morning on the video printer on the bottom of the screen, I take it your on about Amnesty Int going on about the world being death Penalty free?
If TimS which i would support , there has to be a consensus on how we deal with the real scummers, i.e. life meaning life. This means dealing with and taking into consideration the convicted human rights. Basic human rights I'm talking about here, not bloody luxuries either. I'm talking about toilet and shower facilities and a window. Individual cells that sort of thing, I'm not even thinking of tele, radio or anything else. I still feel that behind the glass door visitation rights are ok and viable.
If LWOP is to mean that then yes i would support the vanquishing of the DP. If not, then no i can not support It. Its up to individual sovereign countries to make up their own mind without busy bodies making it for them, What are Amnesty Int going to do when the US or China and particularly the Arab nations say up yours? Absolutely nothing.
Its good press and thats all. I will believe it when it happens and not until.
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Mar 24, 2009 1:47:04 GMT -6
Yeah, when the US and China tell them to take a hike this will fall flat.
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Post by RED on Mar 24, 2009 7:19:00 GMT -6
Love, RED
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Tim S
Old Hand
Posts: 567
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Post by Tim S on Mar 24, 2009 7:31:40 GMT -6
Laugh away! Thats fine by me. It's the truth and you know it. It may not be this year it may not be in the next 10 years I may not live long enough to see it...but it's coming. Listen you can hear the foundations being chipped away.
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Tim S
Old Hand
Posts: 567
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Post by Tim S on Mar 24, 2009 7:32:44 GMT -6
Yeah, when the US and China tell them to take a hike this will fall flat. The USA is a fading economic power, India and China are the big guys now.
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Post by RED on Mar 24, 2009 8:54:32 GMT -6
Well, I'd laugh away whether is fine by you or not. I tend to think it's not fine by you, though. But now that you mention it, Cesare Beccaria said the same thing you're saying about the end of the death penalty...in 1764. ;D Even funnier is that the very article you posted to show the "demise of the death penalty" is under the heading " State Executions Almost Double, followed by this statement: "The number of state executions almost doubled last year worldwide, with China accounting for nearly three-quarters of the total, Amnesty International says". I mean, being that China is now "the big boy" when it comes to economic power, the article DESTROYS the premise you're trying to set, AI's "optimism" notwithstanding. Love, RED Laugh away! Thats fine by me. It's the truth and you know it. It may not be this year it may not be in the next 10 years I may not live long enough to see it...but it's coming. Listen you can hear the foundations being chipped away.
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Post by Californian on Mar 24, 2009 9:00:13 GMT -6
So is Jesus, purportedly. I'll dust.
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Tim S
Old Hand
Posts: 567
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Post by Tim S on Mar 24, 2009 11:40:30 GMT -6
Well, I'd laugh away whether is fine by you or not. I tend to think it's not fine by you, though. But now that you mention it, Cesare Beccaria said the same thing you're saying about the end of the death penalty...in 1764. ;D Even funnier is that the very article you posted to show the "demise of the death penalty" is under the heading " State Executions Almost Double, followed by this statement: "The number of state executions almost doubled last year worldwide, with China accounting for nearly three-quarters of the total, Amnesty International says". I mean, being that China is now "the big boy" when it comes to economic power, the article DESTROYS the premise you're trying to set, AI's "optimism" notwithstanding. Love, RED Laugh away! Thats fine by me. It's the truth and you know it. It may not be this year it may not be in the next 10 years I may not live long enough to see it...but it's coming. Listen you can hear the foundations being chipped away. Believe this or not but the article has changed since I read it. At that time the heading was " The Demise Of the DP" I think Lawrence read the original article. But it still remains true that putting pressure on countries to abolish the dp is a certain way of gettind rid of it.
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Post by D.E.E. on Mar 24, 2009 11:54:40 GMT -6
It may not be this year it may not be in the next 10 years I may not live long enough to see it...but it's coming. If it is after I am gone then I really will not care, in fact after I am gone not a whole lot will matter about this earth now will it.
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Post by Matt on Mar 24, 2009 11:54:52 GMT -6
But it still remains true that putting pressure on countries to abolish the dp is a certain way of gettind rid of it. When was the last time the US bowed to international "pressure" on any issue? Don't hold your breath. And you forget the DP is a state issue here. It's really got nothing to do with our federal government. Still, I suppose Mexico can always hope that one day Texas will listen to its pleas.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 24, 2009 12:30:29 GMT -6
But it still remains true that putting pressure on countries to abolish the dp is a certain way of gettind rid of it. When was the last time the US bowed to international "pressure" on any issue? Don't hold your breath. And you forget the DP is a state issue here. It's really got nothing to do with our federal government. Still, I suppose Mexico can always hope that one day Texas will listen to its pleas. That kind of talk sounds tough, but Bin laden single handedly turned the frigging US into a paranoid state and has affected every citixen, every visitor to the US in a variety of inconvenient ways Matt. And he's not even an International power or anything of that type of caliber, so what exactly is the point you make? If you are cockily saying the US never does anythinganyone else wants it to, I beg to differ. Its foolish to keep up that pretence. He made you start a war.
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Post by GlennF on Mar 24, 2009 13:37:16 GMT -6
If TimS which i would support , there has to be a consensus on how we deal with the real scummers, i.e. life meaning life. This means dealing with and taking into consideration the convicted human rights. Basic human rights I'm talking about here, not bloody luxuries either. I'm talking about toilet and shower facilities and a window. Individual cells that sort of thing, I'm not even thinking of tele, radio or anything else. I still feel that behind the glass door visitation rights are ok and viable. If LWOP is to mean that then yes i would support the vanquishing of the DP. If not, then no i can not support It. Its up to individual sovereign countries to make up their own mind without busy bodies making it for them, What are Amnesty Int going to do when the US or China and particularly the Arab nations say up yours? Absolutely nothing. Its good press and thats all. I will believe it when it happens and not until. Isn't THAT (life meaning life) what the British government promised us when they abolished the death penalty? The same applies to France, Germany and probably all the rest of the abolitionist countries. Fact is that murderers are being let out, and it will get worse if the EU has it's way.
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Post by Matt on Mar 24, 2009 14:12:46 GMT -6
[That kind of talk sounds tough, but Bin laden single handedly turned the frigging US into a paranoid state and has affected every citixen, every visitor to the US in a variety of inconvenient ways Matt. And he's not even an International power or anything of that type of caliber, so what exactly is the point you make? If you are cockily saying the US never does anythinganyone else wants it to, I beg to differ. Its foolish to keep up that pretence. He made you start a war. It is at once a statement of fact, of disappointment, and of some pride. Notwithstanding your Bin Laden nonsequitur, on what other global issues does America tow the internationalist line? Not climate change. Not global trade. Not Iraq. And certainly not the DP. On the topic before us, the DP, it is undeniable that the US cares not one jot about what the UN, or the EU, or even Ireland, thinks about its "position" on the DP. Lump us in with China or Iran all you want. It's a meaningless comparative in any case, and attempting to utilize it actually makes many Americans long for such judicial measures as are used in Saudi Arabia to be available here. We'd have a lot less crime.
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Mar 24, 2009 14:15:17 GMT -6
When criminals stop using and believing in teh death pennalty, I will too. But until that day, if they choose to be the judge, jury, and indeed, Exectutioner, with no appeals, let us deal with them the same.
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Post by RED on Mar 24, 2009 14:26:24 GMT -6
Well, I guess you had bad luck. I mean, a change from "The Demise of the Death Penalty" to "State Executions Almost Double", is a kick in the pants. The organized DP movement has the way to get rid of the DP right on their faces but still doesn't get it. Those that do, well, do. Just ask Ted Kaczynski and Eric Rudoph. Love, RED Well, I'd laugh away whether is fine by you or not. I tend to think it's not fine by you, though. But now that you mention it, Cesare Beccaria said the same thing you're saying about the end of the death penalty...in 1764. ;D Even funnier is that the very article you posted to show the "demise of the death penalty" is under the heading " State Executions Almost Double, followed by this statement: "The number of state executions almost doubled last year worldwide, with China accounting for nearly three-quarters of the total, Amnesty International says". I mean, being that China is now "the big boy" when it comes to economic power, the article DESTROYS the premise you're trying to set, AI's "optimism" notwithstanding. Love, RED Believe this or not but the article has changed since I read it. At that time the heading was " The Demise Of the DP" I think Lawrence read the original article. But it still remains true that putting pressure on countries to abolish the dp is a certain way of gettind rid of it.
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Mar 24, 2009 17:44:00 GMT -6
This is not a one-world government, and the U.S. is a country that knows how to stand up for itself, and this includes wiping out scum. WE could care less what EU or the UN want. You can play A.I.'s games all you want with the tailored stats, opinions from humanist celebrities, and categorizing us with terrorist countries. The death penalty is the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime, and the "Land of the Free" exists because of the brave.
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Post by ltdc on Mar 24, 2009 17:53:57 GMT -6
WE could care less what EU or the UN want. I know WE/US don't care, but I'm pretty sure Pres. Hussein and his minions will bend over backwards for both of them in the coming times.
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Post by Californian on Mar 24, 2009 18:01:23 GMT -6
That kind of talk sounds tough, but Bin laden single handedly turned the frigging US into a paranoid state and has affected every citixen, every visitor to the US in a variety of inconvenient ways Matt. Hardly "singlehandedly." Bin Laden and his 19 thugs took advantage of the freedoms we Americans hold dear to attack our nation. And "paranoid state?" Remember the old psychiatric maxim, mental health guy: "even paranoids have enemies." The point I'd like to make is if he shows a hair on his ass anywhere in the civilized world, he's a dead man. Do you think we've forgotten, Irisher? Not bloody likely. Search Google and see what happened to Admiral Yamamoto.
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Post by ltdc on Mar 24, 2009 18:38:32 GMT -6
When was the last time the US bowed to international "pressure" on any issue? Don't hold your breath. And you forget the DP is a state issue here. It's really got nothing to do with our federal government. Still, I suppose Mexico can always hope that one day Texas will listen to its pleas. Bin laden ....... He made you start a war. now wait a minute, I heard we faked info on WMD's so we could go steal their oil and avenge daddy Bush and it had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or Bin Laden?? where are you getting this fresh new perpective?
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Post by Californian on Mar 24, 2009 19:00:47 GMT -6
Bin laden ....... He made you start a war. now wait a minute, I heard we faked info on WMD's so we could go steal their oil and avenge daddy Bush and it had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or Bin Laden?? where are you getting this fresh new perpective? Hey, don't forget all the Jews who worked in the WTC who "called in sick" on 9/11.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 24, 2009 19:06:57 GMT -6
Bin laden ....... He made you start a war. now wait a minute, I heard we faked info on WMD's so we could go steal their oil and avenge daddy Bush and it had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or Bin Laden?? where are you getting this fresh new perpective? Have you ever wondered why it is that they have caught just about anybody EXCEPT Bin Laden? I may be wrong but it seems to me that guy has priveleges your average American does not have. Come on, whats so hard about finding a guy in a cave or are your armed forces only able to suss out postcodes?
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 24, 2009 19:14:24 GMT -6
That kind of talk sounds tough, but Bin laden single handedly turned the frigging US into a paranoid state and has affected every citixen, every visitor to the US in a variety of inconvenient ways Matt. Hardly "singlehandedly." Bin Laden and his 19 thugs took advantage of the freedoms we Americans hold dear to attack our nation. And "paranoid state?" Remember the old psychiatric maxim, mental health guy: "even paranoids have enemies." The point I'd like to make is if he shows a hair on his ass anywhere in the civilized world, he's a dead man. Do you think we've forgotten, Irisher? Not bloody likely. Search Google and see what happened to Admiral Yamamoto. I have serious doubts about him not being caught, I mean you've had just about everyone else and their aunt. Maybe I sound paranoid but I smell a rat and a done deal somewhere.
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 24, 2009 19:18:42 GMT -6
[That kind of talk sounds tough, but Bin laden single handedly turned the frigging US into a paranoid state and has affected every citixen, every visitor to the US in a variety of inconvenient ways Matt. And he's not even an International power or anything of that type of caliber, so what exactly is the point you make? If you are cockily saying the US never does anythinganyone else wants it to, I beg to differ. Its foolish to keep up that pretence. He made you start a war. It is at once a statement of fact, of disappointment, and of some pride. Notwithstanding your Bin Laden nonsequitur, on what other global issues does America tow the internationalist line? Not climate change. Not global trade. Not Iraq. And certainly not the DP. On the topic before us, the DP, it is undeniable that the US cares not one jot about what the UN, or the EU, or even Ireland, thinks about its "position" on the DP. Lump us in with China or Iran all you want. It's a meaningless comparative in any case, and attempting to utilize it actually makes many Americans long for such judicial measures as are used in Saudi Arabia to be available here. We'd have a lot less crime. Fact is Matt that hilary Clinton had already made it clear that the isolationist tactics of the arrogant Bush are going to change big time, she and Obama recognise the uS cannot shyte on its friends.
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mst3k4evur
Inactive
Member of the Month - 4/09
Ameeerrrrrricaaa, F**k Yah!
Posts: 3,701
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Post by mst3k4evur on Mar 24, 2009 19:41:49 GMT -6
Laugh away! Thats fine by me. It's the truth and you know it. It may not be this year it may not be in the next 10 years I may not live long enough to see it...but it's coming. Listen you can hear the foundations being chipped away. Sure you can. Study history TimS, in the US the death penalty dwindled away in the 60's after being in decline for decades and many activists were predicting its demise. Then followed a decade long moratorium from 1967 to 1977. 10 solid years without an execution. Since 1977 however, the US has executed 1,156 inmates and there are another 3,000 or more inmates on death row. Study history, not the predictions of activist groups.
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Post by D.E.E. on Mar 24, 2009 20:41:13 GMT -6
It is at once a statement of fact, of disappointment, and of some pride. Notwithstanding your Bin Laden nonsequitur, on what other global issues does America tow the internationalist line? Not climate change. Not global trade. Not Iraq. And certainly not the DP. On the topic before us, the DP, it is undeniable that the US cares not one jot about what the UN, or the EU, or even Ireland, thinks about its "position" on the DP. Lump us in with China or Iran all you want. It's a meaningless comparative in any case, and attempting to utilize it actually makes many Americans long for such judicial measures as are used in Saudi Arabia to be available here. We'd have a lot less crime. Fact is Matt that hilary Clinton had already made it clear that the isolationist tactics of the arrogant Bush are going to change big time, she and Obama recognise the uS cannot shyte on its friends. I do not doubt that Hillary and the Obama crowd want to kiss Europe A$$ but that does not mean the average American wants to. In fact I see it as our friends are the ones who stuck with us the rest are not our friends so "f" them.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Mar 24, 2009 21:13:08 GMT -6
Well, I'd laugh away whether is fine by you or not. I tend to think it's not fine by you, though. But now that you mention it, Cesare Beccaria said the same thing you're saying about the end of the death penalty...in 1764. ;D Even funnier is that the very article you posted to show the "demise of the death penalty" is under the heading " State Executions Almost Double, followed by this statement: "The number of state executions almost doubled last year worldwide, with China accounting for nearly three-quarters of the total, Amnesty International says". I mean, being that China is now "the big boy" when it comes to economic power, the article DESTROYS the premise you're trying to set, AI's "optimism" notwithstanding. Love, RED But it still remains true that putting pressure on countries to abolish the dp is a certain way of gettind rid of it. Dude, when Euros tell us to abolish the DP, it makes us want to execute even more just to prove a point. Especially TX. As long as the SCOTUS says it is constitutional, capital punishment will exist in TX and like-minded states..
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Post by Californian on Mar 24, 2009 21:52:26 GMT -6
I have serious doubts about him not being caught, I mean you've had just about everyone else and their aunt. Maybe I sound paranoid but I smell a rat and a done deal somewhere. What utter bullshyt, Felix. Yes, mistakes were made by the Bush administration, but we haven't forgotten. He's essentially like a DR inmate, it's just that his cell is a little bigger-it's the Hindu Kush, perhaps the most remote place in the world, and not a 7x10 cell. And he's just as certainly under sentence of death, just like a DR inmate-and if, as I said above, he shows a hair on his ass, the sentence will be carried out. What did you think we're going to do? Turn him over to the ICJ in The Hague?
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Post by lawrence on Mar 25, 2009 1:58:48 GMT -6
Glenn you comment on life meaning life and what the British Government promised us is indeed a load of bollocks, Rather like the Brown promise on a referendum on the Mastrict Treaty. Bob, i wrote this a few months ago on a thread about Bin Laden , the SAS had him in their sights and could have taken him out, your satellites confirmed the target and your int guys said No to taking the shot , that was dumb. I think the int world would rather have him alive, Why, i have no idea, it would make him a martyr thats all. This was from a very high up source in Hereford, from a guy ive know for years, over 20 years. He still cant believe they were refused the shot. Felix, this is just my opinion, even if Bin laden and his 19 idiots didn't carry out 9/11 etc we would have had to deal with him sooner or later. The Taliban in Afghanistan were told and asked by the US and the UK, (remember we lost over a hundred on 9/11) to give them up, Al Queda i mean and they didn't. So we invaded, killing two birds with one stone. I agree that it wont be won militarily but the Taliban and the terrorists will be held back until the Afghans can take the fight themselves. Not all the Taliban are lunatics that people think they are , ideologist scum, some are fighting with the Taliban for a number of reasons, not ideology, it is them that we , the collision should be talking too and including in talks, not the fundamentalists. America is paranoid i agree but we would be the same don't you think if they had flown a couple of planes into Canary Wharf or the House of Commons, infact since 7/7 (i hate that expression) we have introduced more draconian anti terrorist laws then the Yanks have. Its a sad reflection of our situation but thats the price we pay for our freedom and way of life. The last thing i will say is this, Hangman1981 and to all the others here and across the pond, just because they have not attacked us since 9/11 or 7/7 doesn't mean they wont or cant. It will come if we let our guard down or relax for one moment, they will seize that opportunity. We cant and never shall we allow our selfs to become complacent. Never.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 25, 2009 1:59:24 GMT -6
Going back to the original argument, the dp dimise, amybe but never say never.
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