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Post by Lotus Flower on Feb 20, 2009 0:24:29 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada.
One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it.
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Tim S
Old Hand
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Post by Tim S on Feb 20, 2009 0:47:55 GMT -6
Simple. It's human nature to want to survive. LWOP gives the person hope. Hope that they may be proven innocent. Hope that one day new laws will come into force. Hope that the prison is wrecked in an earthquake and they can get out etc etc etc. What a shock when it slowly dawns on them that all this is untrue..they are going to rot there.
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Post by gman on Feb 20, 2009 2:11:44 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada. One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it. It's a non-argument designed solely to placate those who are undecided, or perhaps un-enthused, about the death penalty - yet eager to show that they too can be tough on crime. It's an 'out', and nothing much more.
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Post by Felix2 on Feb 20, 2009 3:20:20 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada. One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it. Harold Shipman and Ian Huntley prefer death to LWOP.
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Post by Kay on Feb 20, 2009 6:10:00 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada. One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it. I wish that Texas would have had LWOP when SCOTUS overturned the death penalty for juveniles. Perhaps, then, 27 murderers would one day, not be walking out streets. Just by its very nature, I believe a death sentence receives a great deal of scrutiny, and is much more likely to be overturned.
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Post by Kay on Feb 20, 2009 6:19:03 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada. One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it. It's a non-argument designed solely to placate those who are undecided, or perhaps un-enthused, about the death penalty - yet eager to show that they too can be tough on crime. It's an 'out', and nothing much more. Moral opposition to putting a defenseless person to death, in my view, is not a "cop out" on being tough against crime. I simply oppose execution, not punishment. LWOP, life until natural death, is a harsh punishment. I don't support and didn't employ corporal punishment either, does that make me anti discipline. And I'm surprised at this post from you, G, is that what you truly believe?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 7:06:00 GMT -6
Is there any chance that a inmate with lwop can go before the courts & have a lwop sentence redirected to a actual date from good behaviour etc,ect,& could actualy make it onto the streets.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 20, 2009 7:59:04 GMT -6
Is there any chance that a inmate with lwop can go before the courts & have a lwop sentence redirected to a actual date from good behavior etc,ect,& could actualy make it onto the streets. improbable, but possible. many planets and stars would have to align to allow DR inmate communicated to LWOP to become eligible and free.
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Post by D.E.E. on Feb 20, 2009 8:15:07 GMT -6
Is there any chance that a inmate with lwop can go before the courts & have a lwop sentence redirected to a actual date from good behaviour etc,ect,& could actualy make it onto the streets. What is more likely is that as they get old they will claim they are no longer a threat and some judge will agree with them.
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Post by D.E.E. on Feb 20, 2009 8:15:49 GMT -6
Simple. It's human nature to want to survive. LWOP gives the person hope. Hope that they may be proven innocent. Hope that one day new laws will come into force. Hope that the prison is wrecked in an earthquake and they can get out etc etc etc. What a shock when it slowly dawns on them that all this is untrue..they are going to rot there. that is the problem they have hope, they should have none.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 8:56:54 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada. One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it. I'm not sure that in its present state LWOP is necessarily awful, but rather only life long. When we've discussed making conditions more 'awful', COs have been the first to say that'd cause problems that would make working conditions worse and put COs and other inmates at greater risk. Since my main desire is to keep them from killing again wherever possible, the only 'conditions' I'm interested in is 1) not releasing them and 2) keeping them separate from non-violent offenders and 3) making the environment such that COs are at the least risk they can be. *If* they make shanks or act in a way that presents a risk to COs, then they should serve their sentence in SHU or DR-like conditions. I *think* it's more a survival instinct than anything else for them to fight the death penalty.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 9:11:20 GMT -6
Some antis want LWOP for murder, as opposed to the dp. I often hear how awful it would be, they would just rot there, even a worse punishment than death... yada yada. One question. If LWOP is so god-awful compared to death...why do death row inmates fight the death penalty and beg to be given LWOP? Seems like if it was going to be a real deterrant, it would move the murderers AWAY from LWOP and not towards it. It's a non-argument designed solely to placate those who are undecided, or perhaps un-enthused, about the death penalty - yet eager to show that they too can be tough on crime. It's an 'out', and nothing much more. Looking to get your butt spanked, Mr. G?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 9:14:08 GMT -6
Simple. It's human nature to want to survive. LWOP gives the person hope. Hope that they may be proven innocent. Hope that one day new laws will come into force. Hope that the prison is wrecked in an earthquake and they can get out etc etc etc. What a shock when it slowly dawns on them that all this is untrue..they are going to rot there. that is the problem they have hope, they should have none. Well, you know the saying: 'where there's life, there's hope'. You can't stop that. It's my understanding that there's more 'hope' with a death sentence than with an LWOP sentence, since DR inmates get more appeals.
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Post by ltdc on Feb 20, 2009 14:56:49 GMT -6
it's not about death, or hope, or rehabilitation or raindrops on roses or any of what we think they want, or rather what we'd want.
it's about current living conditions and prison classifications.
if LWOP was handled more like death row such as say 23 hr solitary lockdown per day, they'd fight it also. it's only about hanging with the homies
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Post by Grey on Feb 20, 2009 15:22:13 GMT -6
The funny thing about the DP and LWOP is that they are both death sentences within the prison system.
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Post by gman on Feb 20, 2009 17:24:24 GMT -6
Moral opposition to putting a defenseless person to death, in my view, is not a "cop out" on being tough against crime. I simply oppose execution, not punishment. LWOP, life until natural death, is a harsh punishment. I don't support and didn't employ corporal punishment either, does that make me anti discipline. And I'm surprised at this post from you, G, is that what you truly believe? No Kay, this is solely a response to the 'argument' that Shelli wishes to discuss - it has nothing to do with a position either way. She wants to talk about Anti's arguing that 'LWOP is way worse than the DP, or at least as worse, so it's ok - the bad people will still get punished just as much ... if not more'. I call it a 'false' argument because if you look at it, look at the way it is constructed, the proponent is actually arguing 'I hold this position because LWOP is a worse punishment than the DP' - in other words, 'I don't oppose the DP on moral grounds at all, I just think its got nothing on the horror of being locked away for good'. The logical extension of this argument is simple, if you believe this, then you should support much worse punishment like (say) torture and death, because you would be arguing comparative 'worseness' as the benchmark. I don't believe anyone using this particular argument would agree, or acknowledge, this. This is why I call it an 'out' - it's not a real argument at all. But it does add confusion to the mix - which is its purpose I would argue. It is subtle, and in its own way convincing, but it is not solid upon review. This is not your position is it? You are opposed to the DP on principle, not because of the above. In other words, it is irrelevant what the alternative might be, you will always oppose the DP. Yes, you may want harsh penalties instead, but that is not that same as the above argument. Does this make sense now?
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Post by gman on Feb 20, 2009 17:27:48 GMT -6
Looking to get your butt spanked, Mr. G? Only if I can return the favour.
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Post by Ariel on Feb 20, 2009 17:58:35 GMT -6
Prison is awful and LWOP is an awful punishment but whether or not it's worse than death is hard to say.
No executed inmate has yet come back and given us a definite answer.
For what it's worth we need to keep the death penalty for murder and LWOP is the right punishment IMHO for sex offenders.
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 20, 2009 18:18:53 GMT -6
that is the problem they have hope, they should have none. since DR inmates get more appeals. It seems they certainly get more attention.
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Post by Lauren on Feb 20, 2009 19:14:21 GMT -6
Hope that the prison is wrecked in an earthquake If there is an earthquake, I hope the magnitude is high enough so all the inmates fall straight into hell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 19:33:05 GMT -6
since DR inmates get more appeals. It seems they certainly get more attention. ........... on many levels. More reason to support LWOP, Stormy.
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Post by mrbubble on Feb 20, 2009 19:39:35 GMT -6
Generally, LWOP inmates can file as many appeals as death-sentenced inmates can. So abolishing the DP won't save much money on appeals.
The difference is, in the case of the death-sentenced inmate..his punishment is postponed while appeals proceed, whereas with an LWOP-sentenced inmate, his punishment continues throughout the process.
The biggest advantage, in my mind, of the DP is its finality. Once executed, one can guarantee that the murderer will never be free again. In cases of LWOP....you dont know if LWOP really means LWOP until he dies...since a state legislature can change the law at any time, and in most states, a governor can grant a commutation at any time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 19:43:07 GMT -6
Hope that the prison is wrecked in an earthquake If there is an earthquake, I hope the magnitude is high enough so all the inmates fall straight into hell. If it's that strong CA will fall into the ocean.
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Post by Californian on Feb 20, 2009 19:49:59 GMT -6
If there is an earthquake, I hope the magnitude is high enough so all the inmates fall straight into hell. If it's that strong CA will fall into the ocean. The San Andreas fault moves north/south, dear. It's currently moving north about 3" a year. So the worst that could happen is that we live long enough to live in Oregon.
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Post by Kay on Feb 20, 2009 19:52:19 GMT -6
Moral opposition to putting a defenseless person to death, in my view, is not a "cop out" on being tough against crime. I simply oppose execution, not punishment. LWOP, life until natural death, is a harsh punishment. I don't support and didn't employ corporal punishment either, does that make me anti discipline. And I'm surprised at this post from you, G, is that what you truly believe? No Kay, this is solely a response to the 'argument' that Shelli wishes to discuss - it has nothing to do with a position either way. She wants to talk about Anti's arguing that 'LWOP is way worse than the DP, or at least as worse, so it's ok - the bad people will still get punished just as much ... if not more'. I call it a 'false' argument because if you look at it, look at the way it is constructed, the proponent is actually arguing 'I hold this position because LWOP is a worse punishment than the DP' - in other words, 'I don't oppose the DP on moral grounds at all, I just think its got nothing on the horror of being locked away for good'. The logical extension of this argument is simple, if you believe this, then you should support much worse punishment like (say) torture and death, because you would be arguing comparative 'worseness' as the benchmark. I don't believe anyone using this particular argument would agree, or acknowledge, this. This is why I call it an 'out' - it's not a real argument at all. But it does add confusion to the mix - which is its purpose I would argue. It is subtle, and in its own way convincing, but it is not solid upon review. This is not your position is it? You are opposed to the DP on principle, not because of the above. In other words, it is irrelevant what the alternative might be, you will always oppose the DP. Yes, you may want harsh penalties instead, but that is not that same as the above argument. Does this make sense now? Perhaps, it was the title of the thread that confused me. Thank you for clarifying your arguments. You are correct, I do not oppose the death penalty because I consider it less of a punishment, nor LWOP a worse penalty. And, yes, put into the correct context, your comments made perfect sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 19:54:36 GMT -6
If it's that strong CA will fall into the ocean. The San Andreas fault moves north/south, dear. It's currently moving north about 3" a year. So the worst that could happen is that we live long enough to live in Oregon. It's a big old gash that goes north/south, so a slice of CA could break off, no? If not, then I guess I bought this harr oceanfont popperty fo no good reason
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 19:55:41 GMT -6
No Kay, this is solely a response to the 'argument' that Shelli wishes to discuss - it has nothing to do with a position either way. She wants to talk about Anti's arguing that 'LWOP is way worse than the DP, or at least as worse, so it's ok - the bad people will still get punished just as much ... if not more'. I call it a 'false' argument because if you look at it, look at the way it is constructed, the proponent is actually arguing 'I hold this position because LWOP is a worse punishment than the DP' - in other words, 'I don't oppose the DP on moral grounds at all, I just think its got nothing on the horror of being locked away for good'. The logical extension of this argument is simple, if you believe this, then you should support much worse punishment like (say) torture and death, because you would be arguing comparative 'worseness' as the benchmark. I don't believe anyone using this particular argument would agree, or acknowledge, this. This is why I call it an 'out' - it's not a real argument at all. But it does add confusion to the mix - which is its purpose I would argue. It is subtle, and in its own way convincing, but it is not solid upon review. This is not your position is it? You are opposed to the DP on principle, not because of the above. In other words, it is irrelevant what the alternative might be, you will always oppose the DP. Yes, you may want harsh penalties instead, but that is not that same as the above argument. Does this make sense now? Perhaps, it was the title of the thread that confused me. Thank you for clarifying your arguments. You are correct, I do not oppose the death penalty because I consider it less of a punishment, nor LWOP a worse penalty. And, yes, put into the correct context, your comments made perfect sense. But, she wants to be spanked anywho
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 20, 2009 20:01:10 GMT -6
It seems they certainly get more attention. ........... on many levels. More reason to support LWOP, Stormy. There are some lifers who get attention. Charles Manson, Eric and Lyle Menendez. I'm sure Dennis Rader probably gets his share of love letters too.
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Post by phatkat on Feb 20, 2009 20:05:16 GMT -6
The grass is always greener; plus, LWOP usually means general population, which means human contact. I hear they get awfully lonely on the row.
IMO, no murderer should get unrestrained contact with other people, for the safety of everyone. Safety is my concern; really, the idea of punishment doesn't cross my mind when it comes to murder. I guess like a good psych student, I think of punishment as a corrective tool, and there's no correcting a murderer.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 20:11:38 GMT -6
........... on many levels. More reason to support LWOP, Stormy. There are some lifers who get attention. Charles Manson, Eric and Lyle Menendez. I'm sure Dennis Rader probably gets his share of love letters too. But they're special 'Course, if I had my druthers, there'd be no opportunity for them to make new friends.
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