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Post by Felix2 on Jan 14, 2009 3:50:04 GMT -6
Thats exactly what we are going to be with Lydia Kita, already she knows something is different because of her size, last night whilst she was jumping all over my back and laughing her head off she suddenly stopped and said dad, when will i get big, my heart sank and i looked at Jo, i said you are big Lydia, your special too, why do you ask? she said that jasper couldnt fit on her bike today to play because hes too big. I said that we made the quad bike was made for her and not jasper. Im really not good at this stuff Kita and i take the lead so much from Jo and its unfair. I want her to be normal like other kids and i know she will face hostility at school and predudice when older but as long as we let her know that she can do and achieve anything she sets her heart on then i fell we will do ok. Its still a worry though. i keep seeing that programme called exceptional children and they ahd a little girl of 13 with acondraplasia and she was crying one day and the interviewer asked whats the matter. She said, who is going to want me like this? well i sobbed my heart out because it hit home. Thanks for your post, that helped. I think you have to constantly reinforce with her to make her as strong and as resilient as possible so that when those that will try to make her feel bad start their shyte, she looks on them with soem pity for the loosers they actually are.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 4:25:45 GMT -6
Thats exactly what we are going to be with Lydia Kita, already she knows something is different because of her size, last night whilst she was jumping all over my back and laughing her head off she suddenly stopped and said dad, when will i get big, my heart sank and i looked at Jo, i said you are big Lydia, your special too, why do you ask? she said that jasper couldnt fit on her bike today to play because hes too big. I said that we made the quad bike was made for her and not jasper. Im really not good at this stuff Kita and i take the lead so much from Jo and its unfair. I want her to be normal like other kids and i know she will face hostility at school and predudice when older but as long as we let her know that she can do and achieve anything she sets her heart on then i fell we will do ok. Its still a worry though. i keep seeing that programme called exceptional children and they ahd a little girl of 13 with acondraplasia and she was crying one day and the interviewer asked whats the matter. She said, who is going to want me like this? well i sobbed my heart out because it hit home. Thanks for your post, that helped. I think Lydia is off to a remarkable start already. So many kids are destined to have losers as parents. She has a mum and dad who love her, thats a heck of a good start. Kids are not born with prejudice, they inherit them from their parents. Unfortuantly there will always be those out there, but there will also be the other people, the kind, the caring and the ones that will see the Lydia you see
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Post by phatkat on Jan 14, 2009 9:49:13 GMT -6
A friend of mine had the first trimester screening for down syndrome, she came up as high risk so had an amnio and miscarried. She asked to know the results of the test and the results were her baby did not have downs. She has been haunted by it ever since. Thats part of the reason I chose notto have the test with my pregnancies. I can't understand this desire for perfection at any cost I personally don't morally agree with abortion, but I do believe people should have the right to choose. i don't believe a Fetus before a certain gestation is a child. Being offered one at 7 months though is insane and should not be allowed. As for the D.P, I am an anti. I believe the death penalty is killing a person (an evil POS, but a person none the less), where abortion is not, (before a certain gestation) I'm with you, Kita. I'm there too. In a perfect world, abortion would not exist. However, this is not a perfect world. Making abortion illegal now would likely cause more problems than keeping it legal. It's a tough position to hold. I'm sick of the militant pro-life crowd who is triumphant when a baby is born, but they look at you with blank expressions when you ask what they're doing to ensure that pregnant women with no money have good medical care, maternity clothes, healthy food to feed themselves and their children, etc. Until that happens and until other methods of birth control are more accessible, abortion is going to stay right where it is. I would also love to see the morning after pill being utilized more, although that's not 100%. Again, not a perfect world. Then again, I have no respect for women who shoot out babies like a nerf gun shoots out foam discs. However, I have known a couple of women who were taking precautions and still had a lot of babies. I even met a child who came about after mom got her tubes tied and dad got snipped.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 19:38:54 GMT -6
I'm there too. In a perfect world, abortion would not exist. However, this is not a perfect world. Making abortion illegal now would likely cause more problems than keeping it legal. It's a tough position to hold. I'm sick of the militant pro-life crowd who is triumphant when a baby is born, but they look at you with blank expressions when you ask what they're doing to ensure that pregnant women with no money have good medical care, maternity clothes, healthy food to feed themselves and their children, etc. Until that happens and until other methods of birth control are more accessible, abortion is going to stay right where it is. I would also love to see the morning after pill being utilized more, although that's not 100%. Again, not a perfect world. Then again, I have no respect for women who shoot out babies like a nerf gun shoots out foam discs. However, I have known a couple of women who were taking precautions and still had a lot of babies. I even met a child who came about after mom got her tubes tied and dad got snipped. I agree with you on the militant pro life crowd. The ones that line up at abortion clinics to cast judgement on women, but won't lift a finger to help them You can get the morning after pill over the counter here. I know because after my husband had the snip last year, during the "unsafe" peroid, I had a late night trip to the chemist to get it. They ask you heaps of questions, and its kinda embarrassing, but atleast you don't have to go to the doctor. It stuffs around your system though, i wouldn't recomend using it unless you really had to, but its far better than the alternative I can't remember how much it was, not cheap, but certainly cheaper than another baby
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Post by Donnie on Jan 16, 2009 20:30:21 GMT -6
I've never heard of anyone, liberal or otherwise, saying that a baby SHOULD be aborted. You must not ever listen to the baby-killer public advocates.
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Post by Donnie on Jan 16, 2009 20:32:13 GMT -6
Kids are not born with prejudice, they inherit them from their parents. Not inherited. My father was very strongly anti-Jewish. I have never had any such feelings.
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Post by Donnie on Jan 16, 2009 20:35:02 GMT -6
I'm sick of the militant pro-life crowd who is triumphant when a baby is born, but they look at you with blank expressions when you ask what they're doing to ensure that pregnant women with no money have good medical care, maternity clothes, healthy food to feed themselves and their children, etc. I don't think you have ever actually seen such pro-life people. I never have. My experience has been that pro-lifers also work to support pregnant women and support for such women and their children. In addition, we are all taxed to support women and children in such circumstances.
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Post by ichy on Jan 28, 2009 17:45:45 GMT -6
I don't think that being anti-DP and pro-choice is necessarily inconsistent, since I don't consider a fetus prior to the point of viability to be the same as a born person.
As for the DP, I just don't think that all life has value. If you cold-bloodedly murder an innocent person then your life is worthless, and you should be discarded like the garbage you are.
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Post by phatkat on Jan 28, 2009 18:00:38 GMT -6
I'm sick of the militant pro-life crowd who is triumphant when a baby is born, but they look at you with blank expressions when you ask what they're doing to ensure that pregnant women with no money have good medical care, maternity clothes, healthy food to feed themselves and their children, etc. I don't think you have ever actually seen such pro-life people. I never have. My experience has been that pro-lifers also work to support pregnant women and support for such women and their children. In addition, we are all taxed to support women and children in such circumstances. I grew up almost exclusively among conservative Christians who were militant pro-lifers. NOT ALL are like the ones I described, but many are. I've also had friends among that group who became single mothers, and I saw the help that they got. Or didn't get. If that crowd has nothing but judgment for their own friends and family who need help, then I have trouble believing that they're chomping at the bit to help strangers. The boy had Mr. O'Reilly on last night again. He was talking about a couple somewhere (MI, maybe?) who couldn't afford to pay their hospital bills for their baby's birth. Mr. O said, "I don't want to pay for that!" I rest my case. (I also don't know that Snookums ever wants to watch fox news with me in the room again after the words I had for Billy's tv image. What the government is doing to support single mothers is barely adequate, and they for sure aren't equipped to help the disadvantaged women who would be giving birth were abortion not an option.
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Post by ltdc on Jan 29, 2009 21:14:43 GMT -6
I don't think you have ever actually seen such pro-life people. I never have. My experience has been that pro-lifers also work to support pregnant women and support for such women and their children. In addition, we are all taxed to support women and children in such circumstances. The boy had Mr. O'Reilly on last night again. He was talking about a couple somewhere (MI, maybe?) who couldn't afford to pay their hospital bills for their baby's birth. Mr. O said, "I don't want to pay for that!" I rest my case. how do you equate paying someone's hospital bill with either side of the abortion issue? why should Mr. O pay for it? or you or me or anybody but the childs parents? virtually nobody can just cut a check and pay their hospital birthing bill on delivery. it's nothing new no pregnant woman is going to be turned away. they're not going to shove the kid back in, zip her up and send her out they're not going to re-po the kid and sell it at auction. so that leaves the parents with the rest of their lives to pay the bill and if that's what it takes, so be it. my daughter will be having a baby in a few months with no insurance, she's currently saving up for it, and will pay as available. and while I'm sure we'll be helping out I'm pretty sure we won't be going on TV asking why the government is not automatically paying for it. or anybody else for that matter. so tell me why somebody else should be paying the bill in your story?
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Post by Lotus Flower on Jan 29, 2009 22:44:31 GMT -6
I hold a University degree in genetics, it's now a very old degree; and in my time we could detect just a few things. My second son has Cystic Fibrosis. He is still alive and very fit. He has gone beyond the average of 16 years of life. The median in Australia is now 31. We are catching up on genetic problems at a rapid rate. As a teacher, I was asked to be a 'resource' and aid to a 12 yo boy with CF. I couldn't get family support, and started to provide him with some of my son's dietary supports. I was told to stop interfering, as it was not my role. He died 2 months later. My son turns 21 this June, and we will party. He looks normal, attends University, and is active in Sports. Even though his Mum and I are divorced, we still have our common love for him to outlive us. He will. Ray Ray, I think you answered your own question that followed this one about aborting had you known. Look what he's brought to your life. You would have never had that. I hold a lot of respect in my heart for parents with children who have medical challenges. I'm not being PC in calling them challenges, I think (for some) they are simply challenges and not disabilities that stop them if they are raised not to let their differences hinder them. Disabilities imply roadblocks. I have a dear friend with two autistic children and she refuses to see them as anything but her girls who face different challenges in dealing with life's issues. I'm so glad that kids today who have CF, autism, dwarfism, etc. are not ridiculed but instead cherished and parents are taking the time to not see their children as burdens but desire to just teach them a different way of dealing and viewing life. They are so blessed! Good on you.
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Post by Lotus Flower on Jan 29, 2009 22:45:56 GMT -6
I am totally against abortion accept on medical grounds. Most know the story of my little girl and i still feel guilt at the thought that we were given the chance to have her aborted at 7 months. So she is a dwarf? Since she was born she has brought more to us and me personally then any other object on this earth and to think we could ,if we listened to the medical experts, had her terminated. that thought feels me with horror. She is beautiful and such fun and every day is a blessing. I cant understand the argument of a pro dp and pro abortion. i agree with choice if on medical grounds only and rape because of the mental scars. For me the argument is simple, dip your wick fellas and pay the price if unprotected sex results in a pregnancy, ladies, sorry that goes for guys too. open your legs you know the score regardless how old you are. Take responsibility for your actions. Yes accidents happen but should a fetus be punished for that? im no releious nutter or pro life fanatic but i dont agree with abortion as a form of contraception. As for the dp, i find myself sitting on the fence with this, i would gladly execute a peadophile in the most horrendous and painful way possible. But after a year here i find i am swaying more to the right on my views then the left. If it could be proven without doubt that the conviction is 100% safe then i would support the dp for premeditated murder only. I couldnt for the rest as circumstances get in the way of my line of thinking. To many variables to consider. I can't really add more than has already been said of Lydia. She's gorgeous and you guys are giving her the right tools and attitude to deal with what idiots may toss her way. Niche was right..that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Best to you, Jo and Lydia, Lawrence.
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Post by Lotus Flower on Jan 29, 2009 22:47:05 GMT -6
I've never heard of anyone, liberal or otherwise, saying that a baby SHOULD be aborted. You must not ever listen to the baby-killer public advocates. That's what I was thinking. Given my own personal experience... I was heavily persuaded to abort. Heavily. Did I mention heavily??? Those who don't know, should hopefully never have to know. But enter a clinic and see if you're given even a snippet of information about adoption or keeping the baby or even counseled when you come in with serious questions and doubts about what you are about to do. You are instead told to silence your concerns and doubts and encouraged that what you are doing is absolutely right and just. Period. It is a cattle call of snuffing out babies without a thought. They are apathetic to what they are doing every 15 minutes, 7 days a week. When you see, really see, what abortion is about and the process and the way it is handled....well....for some, it changes your life and positions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2009 4:02:22 GMT -6
You must not ever listen to the baby-killer public advocates. That's what I was thinking. Given my own personal experience... I was heavily persuaded to abort. Heavily. Did I mention heavily??? Those who don't know, should hopefully never have to know. But enter a clinic and see if you're given even a snippet of information about adoption or keeping the baby or even counseled when you come in with serious questions and doubts about what you are about to do. You are instead told to silence your concerns and doubts and encouraged that what you are doing is absolutely right and just. Period. It is a cattle call of snuffing out babies without a thought. They are apathetic to what they are doing every 15 minutes, 7 days a week. When you see, really see, what abortion is about and the process and the way it is handled....well....for some, it changes your life and positions. as I have never had an unwanted pregnancy, i can't comment on personal experience, but what you went through wasn't right, you should have been given all options and more support. As someone who is pro choice, I think it should be an educated choice and the information given should be balanced. Maybe if you had been given different information, you may have made a different choice, that must be hard for you, sorry you went through that and sorry the people who were meant to help you didn't
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Post by lawrence on Jan 30, 2009 7:14:13 GMT -6
Thanks for all your support guys, it means a lot, really it does. I'm not the most emotional guy in the world and Ive been up pretty hard and disciplined with regard to self pity and aggression but with kids, my first two i failed them because my marriage broke down, although i have contact its not as regular as i would like. With Lydia its a whole new ball game. She is so bright, Jo her mother is so fantastic as a mother its incredible, with her being a teacher and her mum being the ex head of special needs for the Hereford area Lydia is incredibly well developed mentally and Jo gives her the best as i try to, i make sure that i play with her, read her books, talk to her about things but i get frustrated because I'm not a good talker when it comes to emotional stuff, my dad was very strict and we were brought up almost militarily so I'm not good at the emotional stuff which is why i struggle. Lydia i know will have to face the bullies and i agree we have to build up her emotionally and academically to fight against this prejudice when it comes but i am worried that i wont be able to advise her properly when it happens. may attitude is don't take any shyte and hit the biggest guy first. obviously with Lydia being what she is that isn't going to happen, i laugh at that but its not funny. kids can be down right cruel, i am evidence of that, i was awful as a kid and a bully and if i could turn back time and find those i hurt i wish to god i could because i was and still am embarrassed about the way i behaved. Jo is trying to get Lydia statemented so that she can attend Jo's school until she is 7 when we are both hoping that she can come to the school where i work, we would get a 50% discount and the facilities are the best Ive ever known in a private school. I know she would get the best and i want to give her the best but i worry and I'm worried i will become to protective because i know at times she will have to make some decisions on her own. i know I'm pathetic but she is my world and everything i do is for her and Jo. I just crap at communicating with kids. i can play and entertain them for hours but whenever she is upset she goes to mum, she only comes to me when she has been told off. i know its because Jo is there all day with her etc and reads, plays and dresses, washes her etc but i want to do more. This is hard. Help me girls. Wednesday night her breathing alarm went off, i almost jumped uo those stairs and ran into her bedroom and she started to breath again, (she holds her breath when she sleeps sometimes and the alarm is supposed to shock her into breathing) sometimes it doesn't go off for a minute. I go crazy with fear, Jo didn't move a muscle and laughed her off when i got back downstairs because i hit the stair guard on the way up and fell in a Heep and she heard it on the monitor. Ive got bruises the size of tennis balls up my arms and below my left leg. She was pissing herself. But thats what I'm like with this girl. I don't know how to behave sometimes, to Jo that was a normal everyday experience and to me it scared the crap out of me. how can i calm down. am i being to sesnitive here or just paranoid?
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Post by phatkat on Jan 30, 2009 7:42:18 GMT -6
You must not ever listen to the baby-killer public advocates. That's what I was thinking. Given my own personal experience... I was heavily persuaded to abort. Heavily. Did I mention heavily??? Those who don't know, should hopefully never have to know. But enter a clinic and see if you're given even a snippet of information about adoption or keeping the baby or even counseled when you come in with serious questions and doubts about what you are about to do. You are instead told to silence your concerns and doubts and encouraged that what you are doing is absolutely right and just. Period. It is a cattle call of snuffing out babies without a thought. They are apathetic to what they are doing every 15 minutes, 7 days a week. When you see, really see, what abortion is about and the process and the way it is handled....well....for some, it changes your life and positions. I'm with Kita. I don't feel like that was right, either, and I don't believe that is the way it should be. I have a lot of respect for crisis pregnancy centers who will sit down with a woman and talk through ALL the options with her, although I don't know of many out there because it seems like they all have an agenda one way or another. I know there was one in Dayton that I THINK might've been neither pro-life nor pro-choice, although I can't be sure. I know they did exams there and had free maternity clothes, but that was one place for a metro area of over a million. I want to see more like that. Maybe I am coming from a different point of view because I've only seen the flip side. One of my best friends had an unplanned pregnancy, wasn't married, and the father left town. She looked for solace and advice among the Christians she had known all her life, and almost all of them told her that her only option was to give the baby up for adoption. (which is easier said than done - another criticism I have of that movement is that it doesn't fully acknowledge the difficulty of such a decision, like a woman just pops out the baby, hands it off, and says "bye!") She was criticized and ostricized by many (though not all of them) when she decided to keep the baby. She gets no help from anyone; nobody's even offered.
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Post by phatkat on Jan 30, 2009 7:47:05 GMT -6
The boy had Mr. O'Reilly on last night again. He was talking about a couple somewhere (MI, maybe?) who couldn't afford to pay their hospital bills for their baby's birth. Mr. O said, "I don't want to pay for that!" I rest my case. how do you equate paying someone's hospital bill with either side of the abortion issue? why should Mr. O pay for it? or you or me or anybody but the childs parents? virtually nobody can just cut a check and pay their hospital birthing bill on delivery. it's nothing new no pregnant woman is going to be turned away. they're not going to shove the kid back in, zip her up and send her out they're not going to re-po the kid and sell it at auction. so that leaves the parents with the rest of their lives to pay the bill and if that's what it takes, so be it. my daughter will be having a baby in a few months with no insurance, she's currently saving up for it, and will pay as available. and while I'm sure we'll be helping out I'm pretty sure we won't be going on TV asking why the government is not automatically paying for it. or anybody else for that matter. so tell me why somebody else should be paying the bill in your story? They weren't on tv asking for money; the story was about the state of MI trying to force the entire hospital bill on the father if the couple didn't get married, and neither parent could afford it. Anyway, my point was that mindset. Again, so many pro-lifers are insisting that babies be born (and some may donate money to groups that stand outside clinics with signs, not that Mr. O does, but many do), but they would never consider doing ANYTHING to support those who are economically disadvantaged who actually did go through with giving birth to a baby. That includes counseling and support for those who choose adoption. So, IMO, if you aren't willing that ANY of your taxpayer money goes to help children born under unfortunate circumstances, then you're best off letting abortion stay legal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2009 8:22:20 GMT -6
Thanks for all your support guys, it means a lot, really it does. I'm not the most emotional guy in the world and Ive been up pretty hard and disciplined with regard to self pity and aggression but with kids, my first two i failed them because my marriage broke down, although i have contact its not as regular as i would like. With Lydia its a whole new ball game. She is so bright, Jo her mother is so fantastic as a mother its incredible, with her being a teacher and her mum being the ex head of special needs for the Hereford area Lydia is incredibly well developed mentally and Jo gives her the best as i try to, i make sure that i play with her, read her books, talk to her about things but i get frustrated because I'm not a good talker when it comes to emotional stuff, my dad was very strict and we were brought up almost militarily so I'm not good at the emotional stuff which is why i struggle. Lydia i know will have to face the bullies and i agree we have to build up her emotionally and academically to fight against this prejudice when it comes but i am worried that i wont be able to advise her properly when it happens. may attitude is don't take any shyte and hit the biggest guy first. obviously with Lydia being what she is that isn't going to happen, i laugh at that but its not funny. kids can be down right cruel, i am evidence of that, i was awful as a kid and a bully and if i could turn back time and find those i hurt i wish to god i could because i was and still am embarrassed about the way i behaved. Jo is trying to get Lydia statemented so that she can attend Jo's school until she is 7 when we are both hoping that she can come to the school where i work, we would get a 50% discount and the facilities are the best Ive ever known in a private school. I know she would get the best and i want to give her the best but i worry and I'm worried i will become to protective because i know at times she will have to make some decisions on her own. i know I'm pathetic but she is my world and everything i do is for her and Jo. I just crap at communicating with kids. i can play and entertain them for hours but whenever she is upset she goes to mum, she only comes to me when she has been told off. i know its because Jo is there all day with her etc and reads, plays and dresses, washes her etc but i want to do more. This is hard. Help me girls. Wednesday night her breathing alarm went off, i almost jumped uo those stairs and ran into her bedroom and she started to breath again, (she holds her breath when she sleeps sometimes and the alarm is supposed to shock her into breathing) sometimes it doesn't go off for a minute. I go crazy with fear, Jo didn't move a muscle and laughed her off when i got back downstairs because i hit the stair guard on the way up and fell in a Heep and she heard it on the monitor. Ive got bruises the size of tennis balls up my arms and below my left leg. She was pissing herself. But thats what I'm like with this girl. I don't know how to behave sometimes, to Jo that was a normal everyday experience and to me it scared the crap out of me. how can i calm down. am i being to sesnitive here or just paranoid? You sound like a normal dad lawrence and Jo does sound wonderful, but Lidia needs both of you, you may not be as experienced and "emotionally together" as Jo, but you are you and Lidia needs you just as you are Lidia is a cutie, obviously takes after her mum
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Post by vikki on Jan 30, 2009 8:36:45 GMT -6
Thanks for all your support guys, it means a lot, really it does. I'm not the most emotional guy in the world and Ive been up pretty hard and disciplined with regard to self pity and aggression but with kids, my first two i failed them because my marriage broke down, although i have contact its not as regular as i would like. With Lydia its a whole new ball game. She is so bright, Jo her mother is so fantastic as a mother its incredible, with her being a teacher and her mum being the ex head of special needs for the Hereford area Lydia is incredibly well developed mentally and Jo gives her the best as i try to, i make sure that i play with her, read her books, talk to her about things but i get frustrated because I'm not a good talker when it comes to emotional stuff, my dad was very strict and we were brought up almost militarily so I'm not good at the emotional stuff which is why i struggle. Lydia i know will have to face the bullies and i agree we have to build up her emotionally and academically to fight against this prejudice when it comes but i am worried that i wont be able to advise her properly when it happens. may attitude is don't take any shyte and hit the biggest guy first. obviously with Lydia being what she is that isn't going to happen, i laugh at that but its not funny. kids can be down right cruel, i am evidence of that, i was awful as a kid and a bully and if i could turn back time and find those i hurt i wish to god i could because i was and still am embarrassed about the way i behaved. Jo is trying to get Lydia statemented so that she can attend Jo's school until she is 7 when we are both hoping that she can come to the school where i work, we would get a 50% discount and the facilities are the best Ive ever known in a private school. I know she would get the best and i want to give her the best but i worry and I'm worried i will become to protective because i know at times she will have to make some decisions on her own. i know I'm pathetic but she is my world and everything i do is for her and Jo. I just crap at communicating with kids. i can play and entertain them for hours but whenever she is upset she goes to mum, she only comes to me when she has been told off. i know its because Jo is there all day with her etc and reads, plays and dresses, washes her etc but i want to do more. This is hard. Help me girls. Wednesday night her breathing alarm went off, i almost jumped uo those stairs and ran into her bedroom and she started to breath again, (she holds her breath when she sleeps sometimes and the alarm is supposed to shock her into breathing) sometimes it doesn't go off for a minute. I go crazy with fear, Jo didn't move a muscle and laughed her off when i got back downstairs because i hit the stair guard on the way up and fell in a Heep and she heard it on the monitor. Ive got bruises the size of tennis balls up my arms and below my left leg. She was pissing herself. But thats what I'm like with this girl. I don't know how to behave sometimes, to Jo that was a normal everyday experience and to me it scared the crap out of me. how can i calm down. am i being to sesnitive here or just paranoid? Lawrence, if she loves being with you and playing with you, you're doing ok. My son will play with his dad until the cows come home, and that used to make me feel left out, until hubby complained that sean always comes to me when he's upset. From the look of it, you're doing great, now relax and enjoy her!
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Post by lawrence on Jan 30, 2009 8:38:43 GMT -6
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Post by lawrence on Jan 30, 2009 8:42:39 GMT -6
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Post by Lotus Flower on Jan 30, 2009 9:40:09 GMT -6
That's what I was thinking. Given my own personal experience... I was heavily persuaded to abort. Heavily. Did I mention heavily??? Those who don't know, should hopefully never have to know. But enter a clinic and see if you're given even a snippet of information about adoption or keeping the baby or even counseled when you come in with serious questions and doubts about what you are about to do. You are instead told to silence your concerns and doubts and encouraged that what you are doing is absolutely right and just. Period. It is a cattle call of snuffing out babies without a thought. They are apathetic to what they are doing every 15 minutes, 7 days a week. When you see, really see, what abortion is about and the process and the way it is handled....well....for some, it changes your life and positions. I'm with Kita. I don't feel like that was right, either, and I don't believe that is the way it should be. I have a lot of respect for crisis pregnancy centers who will sit down with a woman and talk through ALL the options with her, although I don't know of many out there because it seems like they all have an agenda one way or another. I know there was one in Dayton that I THINK might've been neither pro-life nor pro-choice, although I can't be sure. I know they did exams there and had free maternity clothes, but that was one place for a metro area of over a million. I want to see more like that. Maybe I am coming from a different point of view because I've only seen the flip side. One of my best friends had an unplanned pregnancy, wasn't married, and the father left town. She looked for solace and advice among the Christians she had known all her life, and almost all of them told her that her only option was to give the baby up for adoption. (which is easier said than done - another criticism I have of that movement is that it doesn't fully acknowledge the difficulty of such a decision, like a woman just pops out the baby, hands it off, and says "bye!") She was criticized and ostricized by many (though not all of them) when she decided to keep the baby. She gets no help from anyone; nobody's even offered. I volunteer with crisis pregnancy centers and they provide all options. They don't like abortion, what do not deny the woman the right to know about it among adoption and offering help if they want to keep the child. What I experienced isn't all that unusual. Other options simply are not given. It's not like you aren't aware of them, but at such a critical time as sitting in a clinic, you would hope they would make damned sure you understand exactly what you are doing, make sure you understand your options are valid...etc.
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Post by ltdc on Jan 30, 2009 12:05:43 GMT -6
how do you equate paying someone's hospital bill with either side of the abortion issue? why should Mr. O pay for it? or you or me or anybody but the childs parents? virtually nobody can just cut a check and pay their hospital birthing bill on delivery. it's nothing new no pregnant woman is going to be turned away. they're not going to shove the kid back in, zip her up and send her out they're not going to re-po the kid and sell it at auction. so that leaves the parents with the rest of their lives to pay the bill and if that's what it takes, so be it. my daughter will be having a baby in a few months with no insurance, she's currently saving up for it, and will pay as available. and while I'm sure we'll be helping out I'm pretty sure we won't be going on TV asking why the government is not automatically paying for it. or anybody else for that matter. so tell me why somebody else should be paying the bill in your story? They weren't on tv asking for money; the story was about the state of MI trying to force the entire hospital bill on the father if the couple didn't get married, and neither parent could afford it. Anyway, my point was that mindset. Again, so many pro-lifers are insisting that babies be born (and some may donate money to groups that stand outside clinics with signs, not that Mr. O does, but many do), but they would never consider doing ANYTHING to support those who are economically disadvantaged who actually did go through with giving birth to a baby. That includes counseling and support for those who choose adoption. So, IMO, if you aren't willing that ANY of your taxpayer money goes to help children born under unfortunate circumstances, then you're best off letting abortion stay legal. I didn't see the program and so relied on your mention of it and you, in your approved way of stereotyping, only said the couple couldn't pay a bill and O'reilly wasn't offering his wallet, how typical of those people. virtually all young couples are economically disadvantaged. it's the way of life. I don't think it's a great "kill your baby " excuse", but I will tell you I support your freedom to choose in the matter. it's the pathetic, whiny azz, totally stupid and irrelevent excuses people give to try and justify their choices, and of course blame those other people for their problems.
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Post by phatkat on Jan 30, 2009 13:20:24 GMT -6
They weren't on tv asking for money; the story was about the state of MI trying to force the entire hospital bill on the father if the couple didn't get married, and neither parent could afford it. Anyway, my point was that mindset. Again, so many pro-lifers are insisting that babies be born (and some may donate money to groups that stand outside clinics with signs, not that Mr. O does, but many do), but they would never consider doing ANYTHING to support those who are economically disadvantaged who actually did go through with giving birth to a baby. That includes counseling and support for those who choose adoption. So, IMO, if you aren't willing that ANY of your taxpayer money goes to help children born under unfortunate circumstances, then you're best off letting abortion stay legal. I didn't see the program and so relied on your mention of it and you, in your approved way of stereotyping, only said the couple couldn't pay a bill and O'reilly wasn't offering his wallet, how typical of those people. virtually all young couples are economically disadvantaged. it's the way of life. I don't think it's a great "kill your baby " excuse", but I will tell you I support your freedom to choose in the matter. it's the pathetic, whiny azz, totally stupid and irrelevent excuses people give to try and justify their choices, and of course blame those other people for their problems. I never referred to "those people"; I've referred to militant pro-lifers and many people who are active in the pro-life "movement". I recognize that there are pro-life people out there who are, hand-in-hand with their beliefs, working with women and families, doing things that are actively pro-life and not just pro-birth. However, that group of pro-lifers rarely seem to be the most vocal ones about the issue. For the record, I have major issues with people who are militantly pro-abortion as well. If I don't seem as outraged about them, it's because I have more personal experience with the militant pro-lifers (as I told Lotus). I was raised among them. My issue (one of many, lol) with Mr. O was that nobody was even asking about taxpayer money, but he blatantly turned it into that discussion. I'm incredibly disillusioned by people who want babies to be born all over the place with no thought or concern to how the children are going to get proper food, clothing, shelter, etc. It's akin to the question that pros like to ask antis - would you take a DR inmate into your home? Well, if you're pro-life, would you be willing for a portion of your taxes to go toward promoting life, as far as helping children to survive once they are born? (I meant economically disadvantaged as in having undeniably insufficient resources to care for children. Many new parents may not be rich, but they have heat/running water/money for at least minimal baby clothes and supplies/proper prenatal care.)
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Post by alix76 on Feb 8, 2009 19:26:52 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection. The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP. But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion. Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy. However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years? Anyone else consider this? Sorry but I really don't understand. Why are we comparing the DP to abortion now? I get that each stops the continuation of a (possible or existing) life but how on earth are these the same? Anyone care to enlighten me? I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but I really don't see how these can be compared like for like. Thanks. x
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Post by Donnie on Feb 8, 2009 20:20:31 GMT -6
Well, if you're pro-life, would you be willing for a portion of your taxes to go toward promoting life, as far as helping children to survive once they are born? That is the current situation. Do you know of any pro-life tax resistors?
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Post by ltdc on Feb 9, 2009 12:45:42 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection. The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP. But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion. Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy. However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years? Anyone else consider this? Sorry but I really don't understand. Why are we comparing the DP to abortion now? I get that each stops the continuation of a (possible or existing) life but how on earth are these the same? Anyone care to enlighten me? I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but I really don't see how these can be compared like for like. Thanks. x I don't think it is as much of a comparison of each act as it is "one" side pointing out what they view as the hypocisy of the "other" side. in general it is viewed that anti death penalty people tend to be more accepting of abortion and pro death penalty people tend to be more anti abortion.
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Post by RED on Mar 4, 2009 12:38:44 GMT -6
But you know, the true pro DP argument has never been that life is sacred. The argument is that INNOCENT life should be. So I simply cannot understand why is it that one should compare a human fetus, which by every single standard is innocent in all possible ways, with John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy. I wouldn't call abortion support and DP opposition inconsistent. It is certainly strange. Of course, there is the position that a human fetus is not really a human being so it should not have any immunity from legal termination. On the other hand, I believe that murderers, which are human beings, have forfeited their rights to enjoy immunity from legal termination. So in the end is all about choice. We can all agree that the murderer made a choice to murder. We can all agree that the fetus did not make a choice to be aborted. Love, RED It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. Human life is either sacred or it isn't. I don't happen to think it is.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 4, 2009 14:38:02 GMT -6
But you know, the true pro DP argument has never been that life is sacred. The argument is that INNOCENT life should be. So I simply cannot understand why is it that one should compare a human fetus, which by every single standard is innocent in all possible ways, with John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy. I wouldn't call abortion support and DP opposition inconsistent. It is certainly strange. Of course, there is the position that a human fetus is not really a human being so it should not have any immunity from legal termination. On the other hand, I believe that murderers, which are human beings, have forfeited their rights to enjoy immunity from legal termination. So in the end is all about choice. We can all agree that the murderer made a choice to murder. We can all agree that the fetus did not make a choice to be aborted. Love, RED It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. Human life is either sacred or it isn't. I don't happen to think it is. I feel it depends on your point of view. Abortion is not against the law; murder is. Abortion is, therefore, legal and no punishment is assigned. Obviously, murder is a different story. I, personally, do not support abortion; but I cannot support government intrusion into an act that is not illegal. Should it become illegal again, then, by all means intrude. As for murder, I needn't bore you with the obvious.
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Post by somebody on Mar 4, 2009 19:14:09 GMT -6
Thanks for all your support guys, it means a lot, really it does. I'm not the most emotional guy in the world and Ive been up pretty hard and disciplined with regard to self pity and aggression but with kids, my first two i failed them because my marriage broke down, although i have contact its not as regular as i would like. With Lydia its a whole new ball game. She is so bright, Jo her mother is so fantastic as a mother its incredible, with her being a teacher and her mum being the ex head of special needs for the Hereford area Lydia is incredibly well developed mentally and Jo gives her the best as i try to, i make sure that i play with her, read her books, talk to her about things but i get frustrated because I'm not a good talker when it comes to emotional stuff, my dad was very strict and we were brought up almost militarily so I'm not good at the emotional stuff which is why i struggle. Lydia i know will have to face the bullies and i agree we have to build up her emotionally and academically to fight against this prejudice when it comes but i am worried that i wont be able to advise her properly when it happens. may attitude is don't take any shyte and hit the biggest guy first. obviously with Lydia being what she is that isn't going to happen, i laugh at that but its not funny. kids can be down right cruel, i am evidence of that, i was awful as a kid and a bully and if i could turn back time and find those i hurt i wish to god i could because i was and still am embarrassed about the way i behaved. Jo is trying to get Lydia statemented so that she can attend Jo's school until she is 7 when we are both hoping that she can come to the school where i work, we would get a 50% discount and the facilities are the best Ive ever known in a private school. I know she would get the best and i want to give her the best but i worry and I'm worried i will become to protective because i know at times she will have to make some decisions on her own. i know I'm pathetic but she is my world and everything i do is for her and Jo. I just crap at communicating with kids. i can play and entertain them for hours but whenever she is upset she goes to mum, she only comes to me when she has been told off. i know its because Jo is there all day with her etc and reads, plays and dresses, washes her etc but i want to do more. This is hard. Help me girls. Wednesday night her breathing alarm went off, i almost jumped uo those stairs and ran into her bedroom and she started to breath again, (she holds her breath when she sleeps sometimes and the alarm is supposed to shock her into breathing) sometimes it doesn't go off for a minute. I go crazy with fear, Jo didn't move a muscle and laughed her off when i got back downstairs because i hit the stair guard on the way up and fell in a Heep and she heard it on the monitor. Ive got bruises the size of tennis balls up my arms and below my left leg. She was pissing herself. But thats what I'm like with this girl. I don't know how to behave sometimes, to Jo that was a normal everyday experience and to me it scared the crap out of me. how can i calm down. am i being to sesnitive here or just paranoid? Hi Lawrence! What an honest story. I like honesty! I think you are a good dad because you care so much. You can build up Lydia emotionally and academically but the chance that she will be bullied is there. When this happens, stand up for her! Tell the bulliers to shut up, go to her school, talk to teachers, don't take no for an answer. It might be too hard for her to fight on her own. Many against one is always (too) hard... Getting bullied is very traumatic for a kid and you are right, kids can be down right cruel. (Maybe you can find the ones you bullied? Your sorry would mean the world to them and lighten your heart! ). Hope I don't sound as a therapist too much I mean it well, I really do.
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