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Post by furoraceltica on Jan 12, 2009 4:47:03 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection.
The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP.
But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion.
Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy.
However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years?
Anyone else consider this?
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Post by Felix2 on Jan 12, 2009 9:17:35 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection. The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP. But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion. Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy. However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years? Anyone else consider this? Absolutely agree, and I also know of instances where parents ignored medical advice and had a baby only for it to be perfect in every respect.
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Post by Californian on Jan 12, 2009 9:31:55 GMT -6
It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion.
Human life is either sacred or it isn't. I don't happen to think it is.
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Post by wrench on Jan 12, 2009 10:04:42 GMT -6
It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. Human life is either sacred or it isn't. I don't happen to think it is. sort of agree. i just cannot comprehend the pro abortion, anti DP agreement. however, i think human is sacred. but if you screw up........
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 11:20:33 GMT -6
I have to laugh at the right-wing Jeezo freaks down here in FLA who have the "Choose Life" license tag yet have pro-war stickers on their cars. I've been told that a lot of the pro-DP suupporters outside Raiford have those tags on their pickups. Typical hypocrisy.
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Post by Californian on Jan 12, 2009 12:17:10 GMT -6
I have to laugh at the right-wing Jeezo freaks down here in FLA who have the "Choose Life" license tag yet have pro-war stickers on their cars. I've been told that a lot of the pro-DP suupporters outside Raiford have those tags on their pickups. Typical hypocrisy. Here's the people I laugh at: Morbidly obese marxist ninnies. And can you imagine a 50-something man who effects teenage dress? That ballcap-worn-backwards look just tops it off. ;D
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Post by phatkat on Jan 12, 2009 13:00:51 GMT -6
I've never heard of anyone, liberal or otherwise, saying that a baby SHOULD be aborted. It's called pro-CHOICE for a reason.
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Post by Lauren on Jan 12, 2009 13:05:53 GMT -6
It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. I have to disagree. In 1969, fetuses were not considered life under the law in California. However, they changed that because of public pressure that fetuses older then 7 weeks were considered a life. Since the 7 week time is to late for an abortion under laws (here in Canada, anyway), technically a person who is pro-abortion isn't really, under the law, killing someone alive. However, since the ppl on DR are alive and have been for some odd years, they are considered a life (although a poor excuse for one), and that is why someone can be opposed to taking an established person's life through LI, and be pro-abortion, without being logically inconsistent. I am also assuming because of this, it is the reason why abortions are legal. crime.about.com/od/issues/a/fetalhomicide.htm
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Post by Californian on Jan 12, 2009 14:31:49 GMT -6
It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. I have to disagree. In 1969, fetuses were not considered life under the law in California. However, they changed that because of public pressure that fetuses older then 7 weeks were considered a life. Since the 7 week time is to late for an abortion under laws (here in Canada, anyway), technically a person who is pro-abortion isn't really, under the law, killing someone alive. However, since the ppl on DR are alive and have been for some odd years, they are considered a life (although a poor excuse for one), and that is why someone can be opposed to taking an established person's life through LI, and be pro-abortion, without being logically inconsistent. I am also assuming because of this, it is the reason why abortions are legal. crime.about.com/od/issues/a/fetalhomicide.htmQuestion: Was there ever a human fetus that developed into anything besides a child? Such thinking as you cite above is merely an attempt to assuage guilt about the taking of human life. "Technically," eh? Interesting.
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Post by Lauren on Jan 12, 2009 14:55:52 GMT -6
I have to disagree. In 1969, fetuses were not considered life under the law in California. However, they changed that because of public pressure that fetuses older then 7 weeks were considered a life. Since the 7 week time is to late for an abortion under laws (here in Canada, anyway), technically a person who is pro-abortion isn't really, under the law, killing someone alive. However, since the ppl on DR are alive and have been for some odd years, they are considered a life (although a poor excuse for one), and that is why someone can be opposed to taking an established person's life through LI, and be pro-abortion, without being logically inconsistent. I am also assuming because of this, it is the reason why abortions are legal. crime.about.com/od/issues/a/fetalhomicide.htmQuestion: Was there ever a human fetus that developed into anything besides a child? Such thinking as you cite above is merely an attempt to assuage guilt about the taking of human life. "Technically," eh? Interesting. No. But, I also never said that people who have abortions feel guilt. And, under California state law, fetuses under 7 weeks are not considered life. However, if people abide by the law, and not religion, they have nothing to feel guilty about, as they have done, under the law, nothing wrong.
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Post by Californian on Jan 12, 2009 23:31:15 GMT -6
No. But, I also never said that people who have abortions feel guilt. Neither did I. But they do, don't they? A nice distinction.
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Jan 13, 2009 1:11:23 GMT -6
It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. Human life is either sacred or it isn't. I don't happen to think it is. sort of agree. i just cannot comprehend the pro abortion, anti DP agreement. however, i think human is sacred. but if you screw up........ ......you renounce it!
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Post by lawrence on Jan 13, 2009 1:43:05 GMT -6
I am totally against abortion accept on medical grounds. Most know the story of my little girl and i still feel guilt at the thought that we were given the chance to have her aborted at 7 months. So she is a dwarf? Since she was born she has brought more to us and me personally then any other object on this earth and to think we could ,if we listened to the medical experts, had her terminated. that thought feels me with horror. She is beautiful and such fun and every day is a blessing. I cant understand the argument of a pro dp and pro abortion. i agree with choice if on medical grounds only and rape because of the mental scars.
For me the argument is simple, dip your wick fellas and pay the price if unprotected sex results in a pregnancy, ladies, sorry that goes for guys too. open your legs you know the score regardless how old you are. Take responsibility for your actions. Yes accidents happen but should a fetus be punished for that? im no releious nutter or pro life fanatic but i dont agree with abortion as a form of contraception.
As for the dp, i find myself sitting on the fence with this, i would gladly execute a peadophile in the most horrendous and painful way possible. But after a year here i find i am swaying more to the right on my views then the left. If it could be proven without doubt that the conviction is 100% safe then i would support the dp for premeditated murder only. I couldnt for the rest as circumstances get in the way of my line of thinking. To many variables to consider.
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Post by rayozz on Jan 13, 2009 2:18:44 GMT -6
I hold a University degree in genetics, it's now a very old degree; and in my time we could detect just a few things.
My second son has Cystic Fibrosis. He is still alive and very fit. He has gone beyond the average of 16 years of life. The median in Australia is now 31. We are catching up on genetic problems at a rapid rate.
As a teacher, I was asked to be a 'resource' and aid to a 12 yo boy with CF. I couldn't get family support, and started to provide him with some of my son's dietary supports. I was told to stop interfering, as it was not my role. He died 2 months later.
My son turns 21 this June, and we will party. He looks normal, attends University, and is active in Sports. Even though his Mum and I are divorced, we still have our common love for him to outlive us. He will.
Ray
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Tim S
Old Hand
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Post by Tim S on Jan 13, 2009 6:47:19 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection. The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP. But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion. Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy. However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years? Anyone else consider this? Whats all this " Liberal " crap?? Do you mean rightwingers do not have abortions?
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Tim S
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Post by Tim S on Jan 13, 2009 6:48:05 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection. The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP. But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion. Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy. However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years? Anyone else consider this? Absolutely agree, and I also know of instances where parents ignored medical advice and had a baby only for it to be perfect in every respect. Thanks for replying to my personal message! sic
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Post by Californian on Jan 13, 2009 8:06:44 GMT -6
Whats all this " Liberal " crap?? Do you mean rightwingers do not have abortions? Generally, it's kinda like Baptists smoking. They do, but they don't admit it. And not all conservatives oppose abortion. Me, for instance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 8:30:32 GMT -6
Just been having some thoughts on the DP and abortion. The debate usually hangs on innocence. But my thoughts are on detection. The opponents of the DP say that we can't have a DP because "no system is 100% accurate". Thus, no DP. But lets look at the liberal attitude to abortion. Liberals says if an ultrasound scan shows up abnormalities, then the baby should be aborted. Yet, these scans are not 100% accurate, indeed, shadows can sometimes be mistaken for defects. I personally knew people whose parents were told whilst they were still in the womb that they were going to be born with defects, yet were perfectly healthy. However, liberals have no problem killing babies, despite the fact these scans are bnot 100% accurate. Indeed, what has more scope for error - a single scan, or a legal process taking ten years? Anyone else consider this? Absolutely agree, and I also know of instances where parents ignored medical advice and had a baby only for it to be perfect in every respect. A friend of mine had the first trimester screening for down syndrome, she came up as high risk so had an amnio and miscarried. She asked to know the results of the test and the results were her baby did not have downs. She has been haunted by it ever since. Thats part of the reason I chose notto have the test with my pregnancies. I can't understand this desire for perfection at any cost I personally don't morally agree with abortion, but I do believe people should have the right to choose. i don't believe a Fetus before a certain gestation is a child. Being offered one at 7 months though is insane and should not be allowed. As for the D.P, I am an anti. I believe the death penalty is killing a person (an evil POS, but a person none the less), where abortion is not, (before a certain gestation)
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Post by vikki on Jan 13, 2009 8:49:00 GMT -6
Absolutely agree, and I also know of instances where parents ignored medical advice and had a baby only for it to be perfect in every respect. A friend of mine had the first trimester screening for down syndrome, she came up as high risk so had an amnio and miscarried. She asked to know the results of the test and the results were her baby did not have downs. She has been haunted by it ever since. Thats part of the reason I chose notto have the test with my pregnancies. I can't understand this desire for perfection at any cost I personally don't morally agree with abortion, but I do believe people should have the right to choose. i don't believe a Fetus before a certain gestation is a child. Being offered one at 7 months though is insane and should not be allowed. As for the D.P, I am an anti. I believe the death penalty is killing a person (an evil POS, but a person none the less), where abortion is not, (before a certain gestation) I'm with you, Kita.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 8:49:48 GMT -6
I am totally against abortion accept on medical grounds. Most know the story of my little girl and i still feel guilt at the thought that we were given the chance to have her aborted at 7 months. So she is a dwarf? Since she was born she has brought more to us and me personally then any other object on this earth and to think we could ,if we listened to the medical experts, had her terminated. that thought feels me with horror. She is beautiful and such fun and every day is a blessing. I cant understand the argument of a pro dp and pro abortion. i agree with choice if on medical grounds only and rape because of the mental scars. For me the argument is simple, dip your wick fellas and pay the price if unprotected sex results in a pregnancy, ladies, sorry that goes for guys too. open your legs you know the score regardless how old you are. Take responsibility for your actions. Yes accidents happen but should a fetus be punished for that? im no releious nutter or pro life fanatic but i dont agree with abortion as a form of contraception. As for the dp, i find myself sitting on the fence with this, i would gladly execute a peadophile in the most horrendous and painful way possible. But after a year here i find i am swaying more to the right on my views then the left. If it could be proven without doubt that the conviction is 100% safe then i would support the dp for premeditated murder only. I couldnt for the rest as circumstances get in the way of my line of thinking. To many variables to consider. Don't feel guilt Lawrence. I am so glad she brings you so much joy, she is lucky to have you and you to have her.... She probably has you wrapped around her little finger, I can just imagine
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Post by lawrence on Jan 13, 2009 9:26:16 GMT -6
She has indeed Kita and i love it . Jo just got her to ring me. she is so quiet on the phone, DAD, WHEN YOU COMING HOME ITS PLAYTIME. Bugger me she nearly deafened me so thats were im off to now. She went to nurserie school today as a try out, jo has tried three so far and im excited as to hear what she say. She can talk the hind legs off a mule. Take care all, be nice and be safe.
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Post by beej76 on Jan 13, 2009 20:50:21 GMT -6
It is logically inconsistent to be both anti-DP and pro-abortion. Human life is either sacred or it isn't. I don't happen to think it is. I think you are right if their argument says they believe that because life is sacred. If they base their argument on something else alltogether, I think almost any combo of beliefs on the two subjects can occur. With that being said, I still think the strongest combo of any of those beliefs is the Catholic anti-DP, anti-Abortion debate - it is consistent and they hold strong to it.
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Post by Californian on Jan 13, 2009 21:15:44 GMT -6
With that being said, I still think the strongest combo of any of those beliefs is the Catholic anti-DP, anti-Abortion debate - it is consistent and they hold strong to it. Actually, I think that's the silliest one of all. By the way, Holy Mother Church does not doctrinally proscribe the DP.
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Post by rayozz on Jan 13, 2009 22:01:39 GMT -6
I just received the latest 'Cystic Fibrosis' journal today. It's from the Victorian, Australia association.
A family had a CF child about 24 months ago. The mother was then diagnosed as pregnant some time later (obviously). They decided to have an amniocentosis at 11 weeks into term. The foetus was diagnosed as CF positive.
They went ahead with the pregnancy, and sure enough they had a girl with CF. I really conflict with this, as being a parent with a CF son.
I love my son dearly, but had I had the opportunity back in 1987, to know the foetus had CF, I do not know which step we would have taken.
Ray
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 0:40:46 GMT -6
I just received the latest 'Cystic Fibrosis' journal today. It's from the Victorian, Australia association. A family had a CF child about 24 months ago. The mother was then diagnosed as pregnant some time later (obviously). They decided to have an amniocentosis at 11 weeks into term. The foetus was diagnosed as CF positive. They went ahead with the pregnancy, and sure enough they had a girl with CF. I really conflict with this, as being a parent with a CF son. I love my son dearly, but had I had the opportunity back in 1987, to know the foetus had CF, I do not know which step we would have taken. Ray I think these "tests" are there as choices but are often forced onto people. Even when I chose not to have the first trimester screening, my obgyn tried to force it on me, even made a comment that my husband would leave me if I had a downs baby I don't know if these tests are for parents, or more for doctors to cover their butts. I don't think having an amnio is a decision to take lightly, the risks of miscarriage are 20% (I think)...my friend miscarried after hers and it devestated her. Out of curiosuty Ray, with CF, is your son a carrier of the gene, will his children automatically get it? How is it passed on?
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Post by lawrence on Jan 14, 2009 1:37:57 GMT -6
Hi Kita, you had it bang on there my love, my last Regimental Sergeant Major In Hereford with The SAS had a Downs kid and i tell you what she is beautiful, she wasn't as severe as some but she is now 18 and leads a reasonably normal life, i have never seen a father look after his girl so much as this bloke, hes the type of guy that would put a bullet in your head no question and eat stuff we would puke at but see him with this girl and you would think hes an angel. She is doing really well, whats ironic about this story is that Jo taught her when she was a little girl and Jo said that she was better behaved then most and was really quite bright academically although she had short memory and concentration problems.
Lydia was diagnosed with Kinest Dysplasia at 28 weeks , this was after we were told it could be brittle bone etc. We were told that she would or might not last the delivery so with in a couple of weeks she was born to an emergency cesarean and wow what a day that was. I was frightened to death for Jo, for the baby. I do wish that some times doctors would just inform you of the fact rather then the possibilities. That was my beef with them after Lydia was born. They put us both through hell with their prognosis and i wish they didn't tell us all their concerns , thats what i think sways couple or mothers to terminate. Its the not knowing what the outcome will be and also the emotional damage thats done after if abortion was chosen.
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Post by clairew on Jan 14, 2009 1:49:24 GMT -6
Absolutely agree, and I also know of instances where parents ignored medical advice and had a baby only for it to be perfect in every respect. A friend of mine had the first trimester screening for down syndrome, she came up as high risk so had an amnio and miscarried. She asked to know the results of the test and the results were her baby did not have downs. She has been haunted by it ever since. Thats part of the reason I chose notto have the test with my pregnancies. I can't understand this desire for perfection at any cost I personally don't morally agree with abortion, but I do believe people should have the right to choose. i don't believe a Fetus before a certain gestation is a child. Being offered one at 7 months though is insane and should not be allowed. As for the D.P, I am an anti. I believe the death penalty is killing a person (an evil POS, but a person none the less), where abortion is not, (before a certain gestation) I never had the downs syndrome test with katie either. I thought to myself would it make any difference if she was?, would I love her any less? The answer is no, she would be the child god gave me and I would have to deal with that. Katie goes to a special needs school which she started last september. There are chidren there that range from learning difficulties to extreme disabilities, but I tell you something, when you walk in that schools entrance there is laughter, no tears and no sadness. THe children are happy. As for abortion I think it is up to the individual, it's something I have never faced or am likely too, so I can't comment. The child is innocent, hasn't had it's time to be evil and hatred. The death row inmate has, they have made a choice to commit this horrible crime and therefore should be punished for that. Just my humble opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 2:48:23 GMT -6
Hi Kita, you had it bang on there my love, my last Regimental Sergeant Major In Hereford with The SAS had a Downs kid and i tell you what she is beautiful, she wasn't as severe as some but she is now 18 and leads a reasonably normal life, i have never seen a father look after his girl so much as this bloke, hes the type of guy that would put a bullet in your head no question and eat stuff we would puke at but see him with this girl and you would think hes an angel. She is doing really well, whats ironic about this story is that Jo taught her when she was a little girl and Jo said that she was better behaved then most and was really quite bright academically although she had short memory and concentration problems. Lydia was diagnosed with Kinest Dysplasia at 28 weeks , this was after we were told it could be brittle bone etc. We were told that she would or might not last the delivery so with in a couple of weeks she was born to an emergency cesarean and wow what a day that was. I was frightened to death for Jo, for the baby. I do wish that some times doctors would just inform you of the fact rather then the possibilities. That was my beef with them after Lydia was born. They put us both through hell with their prognosis and i wish they didn't tell us all their concerns , thats what i think sways couple or mothers to terminate. Its the not knowing what the outcome will be and also the emotional damage thats done after if abortion was chosen. I still remember when Billy was 2 months old, we were shopping at Ikea and I was breastfeeding him, I sat next to a woman who had dwarfism who was also feeding her 6 month old son. He was huge compared to her. I spoke to her and asked her how she managed, she showed me her biceps, and man were they big. She made a joke that she could bench press me (she probably could) Turned out she was married to a 6 foot pilot and works as a school teacher. She seemed like an amazing woman...just goes to show you how some people, no matter what their diversity just take it in their stride and move forward. She said she had parents who never made her feel disabled or different, always made her feel like anything was possible.....power to them I say
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Post by rayozz on Jan 14, 2009 2:56:25 GMT -6
I just received the latest 'Cystic Fibrosis' journal today. It's from the Victorian, Australia association. A family had a CF child about 24 months ago. The mother was then diagnosed as pregnant some time later (obviously). They decided to have an amniocentosis at 11 weeks into term. The foetus was diagnosed as CF positive. They went ahead with the pregnancy, and sure enough they had a girl with CF. I really conflict with this, as being a parent with a CF son. I love my son dearly, but had I had the opportunity back in 1987, to know the foetus had CF, I do not know which step we would have taken. Ray I think these "tests" are there as choices but are often forced onto people. Even when I chose not to have the first trimester screening, my obgyn tried to force it on me, even made a comment that my husband would leave me if I had a downs baby I don't know if these tests are for parents, or more for doctors to cover their butts. I don't think having an amnio is a decision to take lightly, the risks of miscarriage are 20% (I think)...my friend miscarried after hers and it devestated her. Out of curiosuty Ray, with CF, is your son a carrier of the gene, will his children automatically get it? How is it passed on? Hi Kita, No my ex-wife and myself are carriers. We are not affected, nor is my eldest son (26). The weird thing is that there is no documented history in our family. We did extensive family research after Warren was born and can find many children who died of pneumonia. We assume that was due to CF. There just hasn't been much known about it until the 1950's. We had 3 miscarriages until my eldest was born, and then another 2 before my CF son. The signs were there, and I'm sure they would be picked up today. At least, I hope they would. I don't wish to get into the ethics of genetic screening. It's too complicated for me. We now have CF women having children. This would not have happened 10 years ago. They would have been deceased. . Males are supposed to be infertile, then again they were not supposed to live that long to be a problem. I hope Warren doesn't use that excuse!!! I appreciate modern medicine, and that my son is still alive. I do worry about keeping the CF gene alive. It's a real double standard. Usually there is a reason for a gene to 'stay alive' , and in this case it seems to be for digestive reasons. As to Down's Syndrome, that is not a particular gene. It's caused by a breaking of a chromosome. I don't know how old you are, but they associate it with older women as ova are made early on in development of the female. There is some debate to this, but there is a strong statistical association with the age of the mother and Down's. I've rambled. Ray
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Post by lawrence on Jan 14, 2009 3:27:35 GMT -6
Thats exactly what we are going to be with Lydia Kita, already she knows something is different because of her size, last night whilst she was jumping all over my back and laughing her head off she suddenly stopped and said dad, when will i get big, my heart sank and i looked at Jo, i said you are big Lydia, your special too, why do you ask? she said that jasper couldnt fit on her bike today to play because hes too big. I said that we made the quad bike was made for her and not jasper.
Im really not good at this stuff Kita and i take the lead so much from Jo and its unfair. I want her to be normal like other kids and i know she will face hostility at school and predudice when older but as long as we let her know that she can do and achieve anything she sets her heart on then i fell we will do ok. Its still a worry though. i keep seeing that programme called exceptional children and they ahd a little girl of 13 with acondraplasia and she was crying one day and the interviewer asked whats the matter. She said, who is going to want me like this? well i sobbed my heart out because it hit home.
Thanks for your post, that helped.
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