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Post by Sophie on Oct 8, 2008 8:44:01 GMT -6
Hi My name is Soph, I am doing a debate on the Death Penalty, I have a lot of good claims, but am having some trouble backing up one of the claims. I know that the opposing side is going to say something about the Innocent, and i need some good researched answers to come back. Thanks for the help!
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Post by Felix2 on Oct 8, 2008 8:46:56 GMT -6
Hi My name is Soph, I am doing a debate on the Death Penalty, I have a lot of good claims, but am having some trouble backing up one of the claims. I know that the opposing side is going to say something about the Innocent, and i need some good researched answers to come back. Thanks for the help! Most pros and indeed the American public seem to be gfetting qualms about executions because of that concern precisly. I cant personally think of anything with which I could assure them it is impossible of even unlikely an innocent may be killed.
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Post by Felix2 on Oct 8, 2008 8:51:24 GMT -6
Hi My name is Soph, I am doing a debate on the Death Penalty, I have a lot of good claims, but am having some trouble backing up one of the claims. I know that the opposing side is going to say something about the Innocent, and i need some good researched answers to come back. Thanks for the help! A suggestion Soph, why not come in here and try a sort of dry run? Its a serious suggestion that may throw up the sort of arguement you are looking for?
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mst3k4evur
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Post by mst3k4evur on Oct 8, 2008 9:38:20 GMT -6
Hi My name is Soph, I am doing a debate on the Death Penalty, I have a lot of good claims, but am having some trouble backing up one of the claims. I know that the opposing side is going to say something about the Innocent, and i need some good researched answers to come back. Thanks for the help! Point out the guilty men released from death row, many still listed as 'innocent' by the anti-death groups. Timothy Hennis was freed in 1987 from North Carolina's death row. He had been cleared of the murder of a woman and her two children in their home at a Fayetteville Army Base. By 2006 however, DNA advanced to the point that the semen at the crime has been proven to be his. They are now bringing him to trial in a Military court. In my own state, Connecticut, Joseph Taborsky was freed from death row in 1955 after his conviction for a robbery-murder was thrown out. While he was on death row his accomplice and man who had testified against him, his brother, had gone insane and his testimony was no longer trustworthy. After his release he would go on the bloodiest killing spree in my state's history-killing six and injuring a dozen others in the space of just ten weeks. Before he died in the chair in 1960, he confessed to the first murder.
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Post by Charlene on Oct 8, 2008 14:41:31 GMT -6
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Post by Ace on Nov 22, 2008 20:56:13 GMT -6
There are clearly many innocent executed. I believe that on the pro death penalty.com web page there is an argument that many of the men who have legally proved innocent are not actually innocent. The writer explains that just because they have been legally proved innocent does not in fact mean that they are innocent. I however, challenge the author to find a way to objectively prove that they are guilty. I say this because the legal process is in fact the only official method that we have to prove or disprove innocence. This legal process may be flawed--which is disturbing in the fact that we may be letting loose hardened criminal; but also extremely disturbing because is means that we are probably executing many more innocent than we realize. The death penalty information center presents their conclusion that 114 men "have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence." The author then tries to debunk all of this evidence. He also states that thousands of convicts have been released. Well if at least 25% of the 114 are innocent and we apply that to 2500 who were "actually exonerated" the statistic is very disturbing indeed when we think about the innocent. Take a look at this linkhttp://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11092007/profile2.html--and watch the video interview.
I am extremely open to discussion and would also like to talk about the issue of racism and convictions which I imagine you are also having a very hard time with.
Respectfully, Ace age 17 Student
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Post by josephdphillips on Nov 22, 2008 22:21:43 GMT -6
There are clearly many innocent executed. No, not clearly at all. Each was convicted beyond any reasonable doubt. Those who speak of "exoneration" confuse it with "exculpation." They're not the same thing. Statistically one can posit a handful of true innocents in the recent history of capital punishment. It strains credulity to call that number "many" as any fraction of the total. I believe that on the pro death penalty.com web page there is an argument that many of the men who have legally proved innocent are not actually innocent. The writer explains that just because they have been legally proved innocent does not in fact mean that they are innocent. That is not only true but likely. I however, challenge the author to find a way to objectively prove that they are guilty. There's no such thing as objective guilt, or objective innocence. It's all subjective. I say this because the legal process is in fact the only official method that we have to prove or disprove innocence. This legal process may be flawed--which is disturbing in the fact that we may be letting loose hardened criminal; but also extremely disturbing because is means that we are probably executing many more innocent than we realize. Of course. Why is it disturbing? The death penalty information center presents their conclusion that 114 men "have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence." DPIC also thinks Humpty Dumpty was pushed. They're opposed to the death penalty. They never consider jury verdicts dispositive. Unless of course one of their fetish murderers is actually acquitted. The author then tries to debunk all of this evidence. He also states that thousands of convicts have been released. Well if at least 25% of the 114 are innocent and we apply that to 2500 who were "actually exonerated" the statistic is very disturbing indeed when we think about the innocent. You've correctly identified the trap which has seduced many alleged "pros." The justice system is flawed, and always will be. The death penalty, however, is not. It always gets the job done. I don't have to have seen all that has been broadcast by Bill Moyers to know that he probably thinks the execution of one innocent is one too many. That's his opinion. It's not the opinion of most pros, however. I am extremely open to discussion and would also like to talk about the issue of racism and convictions which I imagine you are also having a very hard time with. You're right I have a problem with the racism of the death penalty. It is far too biased against whites and in favor of blacks. There aren't nearly enough black murderers being condemned or put to death relative to non-black murderers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2008 23:53:39 GMT -6
You're right I have a problem with the racism of the death penalty. It is far too biased against whites and in favor of blacks. There aren't nearly enough black murderers being condemned or put to death relative to non-black murderers. In favor of blacks? Only if one doesn't consider that black victims' murderers rarely receive a death sentence. If I were pro DP (as you know, I'm not) I might consider that white murder victims count more than do black murder victims ~ as may be seen by the victims represented by those landing on death row.
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Post by josephdphillips on Nov 23, 2008 9:57:10 GMT -6
In favor of blacks? Only if one doesn't consider that black victims' murderers rarely receive a death sentence. If I were pro DP (as you know, I'm not) I might consider that white murder victims count more than do black murder victims ~ as may be seen by the victims represented by those landing on death row. That's what I mean. The black murder victim is valued less than the white one.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2008 13:24:20 GMT -6
One website I found during my research, blog.jobdiversity.com presents information from a study presented by the American Sociological Review. The study found that "Black who kill whites are more than twice as likely to be executed than whites who kill minorities."
Now there are two solutions that I can think of to this problem. The first solution is that society eliminates its prejudice--unlikely. The second is presented on the pro death penalty web page I believe--it is that the death penalty must be applied to all capital cases. But that would likely increase at least proportionately the number of innocent being executed. Increase the cost to the government outrageously(cost of death penalty versus cost of life with out parole is 1-3million/3-5 million). And possibly devalue human life.
I would like to add that I would agree with Bill Moyers on this that one innocent executed is way too many.
If you want I can explain my viewpoint on the solution to capital punishment
I agree with you that it's all subjective, but I have yet to find an argument that is able to prove something subjectively.
Exonerate: to clear, as of an accusation; free from guilt or blame; exculpate: He was exonerated from the accusation of cheating. -Dictionary.com
I guess I can agree with you that the two words are different but the difference is too subtle to be able to argue.
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Post by goblegoble on Nov 23, 2008 15:32:16 GMT -6
There are clearly many innocent executed. I believe that on the pro death penalty.com web page there is an argument that many of the men who have legally proved innocent are not actually innocent. The writer explains that just because they have been legally proved innocent does not in fact mean that they are innocent. I however, challenge the author to find a way to objectively prove that they are guilty. I say this because the legal process is in fact the only official method that we have to prove or disprove innocence. This legal process may be flawed--which is disturbing in the fact that we may be letting loose hardened criminal; but also extremely disturbing because is means that we are probably executing many more innocent than we realize. The death penalty information center presents their conclusion that 114 men "have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence." The author then tries to debunk all of this evidence. He also states that thousands of convicts have been released. Well if at least 25% of the 114 are innocent and we apply that to 2500 who were "actually exonerated" the statistic is very disturbing indeed when we think about the innocent. Take a look at this linkhttp://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11092007/profile2.html--and watch the video interview. I am extremely open to discussion and would also like to talk about the issue of racism and convictions which I imagine you are also having a very hard time with. Respectfully, Ace age 17 Student They haven't been legally proved innocent. Reversal of a conviction or a reversal and dismissal of the charges or a defense atty stating, My client has been vindicated!, is not the same as a finding of factual innocence. A finding of factual innocence requires the defendant to petition the trial court and both sides must be heard. I can only remember one time it was done in my state and it was granted. However, it was reversed on appeal. IOW, it is rarely done and rarely granted. The dpic claims are bogus.
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Post by goblegoble on Nov 23, 2008 15:42:36 GMT -6
One website I found during my research, blog.jobdiversity.com presents information from a study presented by the American Sociological Review. The study found that "Black who kill whites are more than twice as likely to be executed than whites who kill minorities." Now there are two solutions that I can think of to this problem. The first solution is that society eliminates its prejudice--unlikely. The second is presented on the pro death penalty web page I believe--it is that the death penalty must be applied to all capital cases. But that would likely increase at least proportionately the number of innocent being executed. Increase the cost to the government outrageously(cost of death penalty versus cost of life with out parole is 1-3million/3-5 million). And possibly devalue human life. I would like to add that I would agree with Bill Moyers on this that one innocent executed is way too many. If you want I can explain my viewpoint on the solution to capital punishment I agree with you that it's all subjective, but I have yet to find an argument that is able to prove something subjectively. One, you can not claim prejudice without knowing the specific facts of the case. I would guess that those who have murdered before, committed multiple murders, or raped and murdered children are more likely to get the DP independent of race Two, the USSC has ruled that the state can not apply the DP to all first degree murders. So, I wouldn't waste time with that one. I am not willing to throw the DP out because some people claim it is bias or an innocent person has been executed, which I personally don't believe. Three, Bill Moyers SUXS. See previous answer. Again, a finding of factual innocence has a specific legal meaning with specific requirements. There's nothing subtle about it at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2008 17:02:49 GMT -6
Dear Goble: stay out of the discussion if you don't want to POLITELY provide well thought out replies.
Number one. I was talking about the word exonerated as in the definition of exonerated which is a synonym of exculpated. Like a said the words DO have a very subtle difference which the online dictionary seems to have failed in pointing out.
I really don't think innocent people are executed on a routine basis, and I am not even using that as one of my arguments in the paper I am writing. I don't care about the death penalty all that much--but I think it is a failure of the government because--
I believe that life without parole is actually a worse sentence than the DP. It is really very expensive, and the money that is being spent on the death penalty could instead be used on social programs. I believe that people are inherently good. If the government treated the problem--that is the terrible environment so many poor kids grow up in--there would be much fewer homicides. On a global level 3 billion dollars would provide clean drinking water for the whole world--talk about saving innocent lives. Speaking of which, there is no feasible way to prove that the death penalty has a deterrent effect. Just look at state to state homicide levels (BC isn't a state; they can't even vote!). Although I have seen numerous individual examples for deterrence, I have not seen proof of causation instead of correlation.
I won't pretend to be horribly interested in the death penalty either. While maybe a few innocent--and a quit a few not-so-bad people have been executed, thousands of innocent children die every day because of the lack of disturbingly basic necessities. I think it is good a select few people argue about the death penalty--but it's not such a big issue for me. I think I can provide much more somewhere else--and I think the government could to.
By the way, saying that Bill Moyers SUXS isn't proving anything about him to me or anyone. And if you watch Fox News, stating that he is bias would be unthinkably hypocritical ( realize that Moyers is as well).
Repectfully, Ace
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Post by goblegoble on Nov 23, 2008 19:22:09 GMT -6
Dear Acer: When you don’t know what you are talking about, shut up and you might learn something. Polite enough? My answers were well thought out. However, your answers and questions were/are not. One, who cares whether exonerate is a synonym of exculpate? It is irrelevant. It is not the same as a trial court’s finding of factual innocence. The dpic knows rubes like you and others will confuse them. Two, if you are going to use enumeration, you must have at a minimum two. And, if you don’t think innocent people are executed on a routine basis, why did you post this: There are clearly many innocent executed. Anyway, lwop is not worse than the DP. If it was, people on death row would not fight it so hard and for so long against their sentence. Very few waive their appeals. The expense is caused by long drawn out appeals. If we didn’t have the death penalty, the expense would just transfer to fighting lwop and life sentences. The DP is worth every penny. The rest of your response is just too naive to address. Worse, you’re canadian. And yes, the dp does have a deterrent effect, though that is not the sole reason for supporting it. You were the one who approvingly tossed in Moyers. It doesn’t prove anything about him to me or to anyone else. And he still SUXS.
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Post by Kay on Nov 23, 2008 19:27:31 GMT -6
Dear Acer: When you don’t know what you are talking about, shut up and you might learn something. Polite enough? My answers were well thought out. However, your answers and questions were/are not. One, who cares whether exonerate is a synonym of exculpate? It is irrelevant. It is not the same as a trial court’s finding of factual innocence. The dpic knows rubes like you and others will confuse them. Two, if you are going to use enumeration, you must have at a minimum two. And, if you don’t think innocent people are executed on a routine basis, why did you post this: There are clearly many innocent executed. Anyway, lwop is not worse than the DP. If it was, people on death row would not fight it so hard and for so long against their sentence. Very few waive their appeals. The expense is caused by long drawn out appeals. If we didn’t have the death penalty, the expense would just transfer to fighting lwop and life sentences. The DP is worth every penny. The rest of your response is just too naive to address. Worse, you’re canadian. And yes, the dp does have a deterrent effect, though that is not the sole reason for supporting it. You were the one who approvingly tossed in Moyers. It doesn’t prove anything about him to me or to anyone else. And he still SUXS. This area is restricted to student requests, if you wish to debate, please consider joining the board. Thank you.
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