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Post by kathy20 on May 14, 2008 13:44:38 GMT -6
I am a student from austria and we just had a discussion about death penalty. Now I am thinking about using that topic for my term paper (I'm studying political science) .
I really have to say that I am not sure whether I am pro or anti, because both sides somehow have convincing arguments...
But basically there is one point that makes me more anti-dp than pro: why not simply choose life without parole instead of death penalty??
Is it really just the costs? Or are there more arguments??
Would be really nice, if someone could answer this (so I could also use those arguments for my paper?!)
Thanks in advance
kathy
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Post by josephdphillips on May 14, 2008 14:06:11 GMT -6
I am a student from austria and we just had a discussion about death penalty. Now I am thinking about using that topic for my term paper (I'm studying political science) . I really have to say that I am not sure whether I am pro or anti, because both sides somehow have convincing arguments... But basically there is one point that makes me more anti-dp than pro: why not simply choose life without parole instead of death penalty?? Is it really just the costs? Or are there more arguments?? Would be really nice, if someone could answer this (so I could also use those arguments for my paper?!) Thanks in advance kathy Why settle for LWOP? Is that the best we can do? The desire to punish a murder with death is natural. The important question is whether or not it does anyone any good to act contrary to that desire. |
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Post by kathy20 on May 14, 2008 14:21:36 GMT -6
first of all thanks for the answer!!
still, I don't think this is really a convincing argument...I am not sure whether death penalty is indeed a natural desire... If it were, why are there so many people against it?
For me it is important to make sure that murderes (e.g.) can't harm anyone again...and for that I think LWOP is sufficient. And I also think that it has a kind of deterrant effect (cause I imagine a life in prison is quite horrible...maybe even worse than death?)
The point is that I quite understand that people favor death penalty if there is a chance that the offender might go free again...but if that is not the case.....
As I said I am not sure what to think myself...so that's why I am asking..
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Post by ltdc on May 14, 2008 16:02:12 GMT -6
first of all thanks for the answer!! still, I don't think this is really a convincing argument...I am not sure whether death penalty is indeed a natural desire... If it were, why are there so many people against it? For me it is important to make sure that murderes (e.g.) can't harm anyone again...and for that I think LWOP is sufficient. And I also think that it has a kind of deterrant effect (cause I imagine a life in prison is quite horrible...maybe even worse than death?) The point is that I quite understand that people favor death penalty if there is a chance that the offender might go free again...but if that is not the case..... As I said I am not sure what to think myself...so that's why I am asking.. perhaps you're comparing apples to oranges, ( or is it lemons to llamas?) anyway, perhaps in Austria LWOP actually means that. but over here it really doesn't. policitcs change, laws change, goveners/presidents pardon people. then you have the chance of escape, you have the murders in prison of guards and inmates, you have any number of transportations to court, hospitals, medicals, work sites, etc where inmates have murdered innocents. now let's look at oranges. executed people do not, have not and will not ever murder again. period. 100% effective. LWOP can't produce that gaurantee |
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Post by Gary on May 14, 2008 16:09:54 GMT -6
first of all thanks for the answer!! still, I don't think this is really a convincing argument...I am not sure whether death penalty is indeed a natural desire... If it were, why are there so many people against it? For me it is important to make sure that murderes (e.g.) can't harm anyone again...and for that I think LWOP is sufficient. And I also think that it has a kind of deterrant effect (cause I imagine a life in prison is quite horrible...maybe even worse than death?) The point is that I quite understand that people favor death penalty if there is a chance that the offender might go free again...but if that is not the case..... As I said I am not sure what to think myself...so that's why I am asking.. Lwop is not worse than death because very few prisoners opt for death but fight tooth and nail for lwop. The DP is a deterrent in that for every execution 3-18 murders are prevented. Additionally, executed murderers do not: murder prison personnel. murder other prisoners. murders outside of prison. escape prison and murder again. And if you read the case opinions you would see that the death penalty is justice. Why do you sympathizes with the murderers instead of the victims? And most people are not against it. Unfortunately, those who oppose capital punishment are notorious for lying about it. If they didn't, many more people would support it. And considering you’re from Austria, take a look at your own criminal justice system. It sucks. |
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Post by josephdphillips on May 14, 2008 16:11:16 GMT -6
first of all thanks for the answer!! You're welcome. I am not sure whether death penalty is indeed a natural desire... If it were, why are there so many people against it? A lot of people are ashamed of their natural desire. For me it is important to make sure that murderes (e.g.) can't harm anyone again...and for that I think LWOP is sufficient. The argument becomes null and void the moment your alternative fails to protect the innocent. There have been several such failures. Also, the same argument against the death penalty also works against LWOP. You are killing someone either way. At least those who support capital punishment are honest about their intentions. I also think that it has a kind of deterrant effect (cause I imagine a life in prison is quite horrible...maybe even worse than death?) The empirical evidence suggests otherwise. There are very few suicides among LWOP inmates, and not for lack of opportunity. I quite understand that people favor death penalty if there is a chance that the offender might go free again...but if that is not the case I am not one of them. I would execute a murderer if he was in a permanent coma. I am not sure what to think myself...so that's why I am asking.. It's a moral issue and boils down to how serious you want to be in punishing murder. True LWOP doesn't exist -- anywhere. Murderers do die in prison, but every LWOP inmate thinks there's a chance of release, a chance of exoneration, and hopes for the best. LWOP means society truly gives up on the inmate, even if he's innocent of his crime. LWOP will never exist as long as there are lawyers opposing it. |
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Rand
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PRO-DP
Posts: 1,839
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Post by Rand on May 14, 2008 16:42:32 GMT -6
...I am not sure whether death penalty is indeed a natural desire... If it were, why are there so many people against it? Hello Kathy, I think it's indeed a natural desire and that's why the death penalty has always been applied since human society exists, until it was VERY RECENTLY abolished in many countries in the world. Let us not forget the abolition of the DP came with the fight for Human rights in the 19th century. So the decisions made in those countries concerning the DP were more "ideological" or moral than "natural". I don't think on the DP issue the human's mind evolution was natural but rather conditionned. You might think it's exagerated, but in Europe especially it's kinda fashion to be anti-DP. When one say he's pro, they answer "you should follow modern evolutions, we're not in the Middle ages anymore", etc ...  |
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Post by D.E.E. on May 14, 2008 22:06:43 GMT -6
I am a student from austria and we just had a discussion about death penalty. Now I am thinking about using that topic for my term paper (I'm studying political science) . I really have to say that I am not sure whether I am pro or anti, because both sides somehow have convincing arguments... But basically there is one point that makes me more anti-dp than pro: why not simply choose life without parole instead of death penalty?? Is it really just the costs? Or are there more arguments?? Would be really nice, if someone could answer this (so I could also use those arguments for my paper?!) Thanks in advance kathy Well you can be sure that a murdered who is excecuted will never murder again, the same can not be said of someone on LWOP. It is very rare for someone on DR to even have the chance to kill again, but it can happen, with LWOP they are in general population and can kill again. If the most that they can get is LWOP then what do you sentence someone to who murderers while serving LWOP? These are not my reasons but are answers to your question. |
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Post by kathy20 on May 15, 2008 1:24:43 GMT -6
well, thanks a lot for these many answers!!
some of the arguments are quite convincing....
Concerning the question wheter most people support dp: well I don't have any statistics about that, so I honestly don't know. In the US probably the majority is in favor of it, in Europe I don't think so...(although I couldn't say why it is like that...)
Anyways, in what way are opponents of dp "notorious for lying about it"?? Isn't that simply a matter of opinion?
And about me being from Austria - if you are referring to the incest-rape-etc.-case: Yeah that was horrible (but I am afraid it could happen in other countries as well) and yeah, our laws are much too linient in such cases....but we're about to change that.
But as I said, the arguments you bring forward are definitely interesting and logical.
Thanks again for the quick and numerous answers!!
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Post by lawrence on May 15, 2008 5:46:42 GMT -6
No Joe, its not natural for everyone to wish the DP for murderers, your second point i am in support of. I for one have never wished death on anyone for any reason apart from child killers and child molesters. They truely sicken me. kathy20 my fellow European friend, no most people and countries do not support the DP. Most countries now have abolished the DP. Go visit www.amnesty.org. There you will get the best information of which countries do support the DP, which have abolished it and why and what countries are presently having referendums or political votes on the abolishioning of the DP. you will also get a list of those who do execute. |
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Rand
Banned
PRO-DP
Posts: 1,839
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Post by Rand on May 15, 2008 6:25:15 GMT -6
No Joe, its not natural for everyone to wish the DP for murderers, your second point i am in support of. I for one have never wished death on anyone for any reason apart from child killers and child molesters. They truely sicken me. kathy20 my fellow European friend, no most people and countries do not support the DP. Most countries now have abolished the DP. Go visit www.amnesty.org. There you will get the best information of which countries do support the DP, which have abolished it and why and what countries are presently having referendums or political votes on the abolishioning of the DP. you will also get a list of those who do execute. I keep thinking it's idéological, not natural. This is due to the fact that they succeeded into melting Human rights with murderer's rights, which is simply not compatible. And many countries abolished the DP while their population was pro. Purely ideological, trust me.  |
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Post by Gary on May 15, 2008 7:02:26 GMT -6
Concerning the question wheter most people support dp: well I don't have any statistics about that, so I honestly don't know. In the US probably the majority is in favor of it, in Europe I don't think so...(although I couldn't say why it is like that...)
No, the majority of people support the death penalty.
Anyways, in what way are opponents of dp "notorious for lying about it"?? Isn't that simply a matter of opinion?
No. How many times have your heard the same tripe: "Another innocent man executed!" However, if you actually read the case opinions and don't have a moron IQ, you can see it is a lie. And the worse liars are these anti-dp organizations like dpic and amnesty international.
And about me being from Austria - if you are referring to the incest-rape-etc.-case: Yeah that was horrible (but I am afraid it could happen in other countries as well) and yeah, our laws are much too linient in such cases....but we're about to change that.
Among other things. That his criminal record would be expunged and even the police would have no record of it is absurd. That the police over a period of decades conducted such a shoddy investigation is disgusting. Since the trend over there is to abolish all lwop and life sentences, as to your laws changing -- I'll believe it when I see it. I wouldn't bet on it. And yes it happens in other European countries. Apparently, kidnapping young girls and holding them in dudgeons is quite a fad over there. All by people with prior records who should have never been released from prison. Why aren't you concerned with that instead of pretending you can have the DP abolished in the US?
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Post by kathy20 on May 15, 2008 7:43:42 GMT -6
@gary: Have I ever said anything about abolishing dp in the US? I said that I would like to hear you arguments, because I am nit sure whether I am in favor of dp or not - because it is not an easy thing to decide (for me). I don't like that criminal records (especially about rape and similar things) are expunged (but our government is about to change that at this very moment, just as they are changing the laws for stricter punishment in such cases). This is happening right now. Additionally I have never heard that any government in europe wants to abolish life sentence, and mist certainly not in Austria. And when I say this happens in other countries as well, I think the USA is among those countries as well as many european ones. And still I think that the majority in Europe is against dp. I can't say whether that is good or not (as I said I AM SIMPLY NOT SURE), but I believe that is a fact. I was simply asking for opinions as I am really interested in that topic - especially because there are so many opinions and a lot of controversy. I just respect both positions (pro and anti) and I don't think that any of them are liars...they just see things from different perspectives..... Rand: what exactly do you mean with ideological? Is there really a mixing of human rights with murderer' rights....don't human rights apply to everyone? (also a difficult question, by the way...) lawrence: if I may ask: are you in favor of dp or not? nice discussion anyways, thanks. |
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Post by kathy20 on May 15, 2008 7:47:11 GMT -6
p.s.: sorry for the spelling-mistakes....I was writing to fast |
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Post by josephdphillips on May 15, 2008 7:55:10 GMT -6
I don't like that criminal records (especially about rape and similar things) are expunged (but our government is about to change that at this very moment, just as they are changing the laws for stricter punishment in such cases). This is happening right now. Criminal records are not expunged here in California. Once you are convicted of a misdemeanor or felony here, you carry that record with you for life. |
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Rand
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PRO-DP
Posts: 1,839
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Post by Rand on May 15, 2008 7:55:17 GMT -6
Rand: what exactly do you mean with ideological? Is there really a mixing of human rights with murderer' rights....don't human rights apply to everyone? (also a difficult question, by the way...) By ideological I mean it was not a natural evolution as for example accepting inter-racial marriage or homosexuality for the average citizen. Don't know if those examples are convincing, but I think you understand what's my point. Abolishing the DP was imposed by Human rights policies, which says each person has the right to live. That is where fireworks start between DP opponents and supporters. Personally I don"t consider killers as "simple citizen" who should be guaranteed all rights. I think in the Human rights, being denied one's freedom is a violation too ... so what the hell are we gonna do with prison sentences ? Always the same problem going round and round, what we blame the DP for, can also be blamed on prison. As a conclusion, I personally think killers shouldn't be granted human rights because they're the first to violate them. |
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Post by kathy20 on May 15, 2008 8:01:03 GMT -6
Yeah, I think I understand. Well that's right, in that way all those things are of course ideological. So views change in time...
about human rights....of course we can't grant all the rights to everyone, if you commit a crime you are bound to lose certain rights (maybe even parts of the human rights, yeah)...but there are probably some basic rights that should be granted to anyone...but, yeah, it's also not easy to decide which ones....
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Post by josephdphillips on May 15, 2008 8:01:23 GMT -6
its not natural for everyone to wish the DP for murderers That is wishful thinking. History and biology proves my point. Any organism defends itself from a pathogen whenever, and as efficiently, as possible. I for one have never wished death on anyone for any reason apart from child killers and child molesters. Because you're an idiot. |
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Post by kathy20 on May 15, 2008 8:05:31 GMT -6
josephdphillips: sorry I know you didn't say that to me and I really dont want to cause trouble, but: Isn't there a way of arguing without insulting other people?! I mean, no one else got rude... sorry just wanted to ask for a little more respect for other opinions! please
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Post by lawrence on May 15, 2008 8:06:36 GMT -6
The same in Blighty, you commit a crime, espeicially a serious crime like second degree murder or something other thats considered not nice you have a record for life. Rand, are you French, im asking because im not taking anything for granted here. I dont understand what your saying.... Ideological?? since when, its emotional and political, simple as that. we had a poll carried out not long ago of 30,000 people and i think it was 27% in favour which is quite low. They then had the same poll after a father was killed outside his home challenging some drunken youths. The change was a massive 72% swing infavour of the DP. You do that anytime after a vicious murder and it will happen all over the world. When the heat dies down and people thinkl carefully about it, the DP would no longer be brought back to the UK then anywhere else in Europe. I do agree that the justice and sentencing needs to be seriously looked into. To many seriosu lifelong criminals are getting away with lenient sentencing because they no their rights better then the law does. Also i dont agree with the European law on Human rights, it has given lawyers an open cheque book. Too many people are ussing this new European Law, not English law to get away with crime. Its crap and needs to be abolished.
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Rand
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PRO-DP
Posts: 1,839
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Post by Rand on May 15, 2008 8:20:41 GMT -6
Rand, are you French, im asking because im not taking anything for granted here. Yes I'm French, with foreign origins. Why all those doubts about me ?? "political", it implicates some ideology. I was talking about why the DP was abolished, not what each citizen personally and emotionnaly think about the DP. Politicians didn't abolish the DP because of emotional feelings, but because of some political ideologies and pressure. You're right, I know polls are not very convincing because they depend on the ambiant mood, day by day. It only shows that most people don't have any objection concerning the execution of scums, they only have objection with the DP in itself. How many people say "I don't favor the DP usually, but for this monster, gosh, It should be an exception" ... I think most people answering in polls who oppose the DP are like Arizona Vet "only for the worst". ;D I agree with you on this point. |
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Post by Felix2 on May 15, 2008 8:34:12 GMT -6
its not natural for everyone to wish the DP for murderers That is wishful thinking. History and biology proves my point. Any organism defends itself from a pathogen whenever, and as efficiently, as possible. I for one have never wished death on anyone for any reason apart from child killers and child molesters. Because you're an idiot. Humans are supposed to aspire to being more than organisms. As for you calling anyone an idiot, I cant help noticing you are deferring to this tactic when you cannot mount a logical response, I suppose one could argue in your case its an improvement? or indiocative of some insight creeping in however slowly on your part. ;D |
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Post by Felix2 on May 15, 2008 8:35:21 GMT -6
I am a student from austria and we just had a discussion about death penalty. Now I am thinking about using that topic for my term paper (I'm studying political science) . I really have to say that I am not sure whether I am pro or anti, because both sides somehow have convincing arguments... But basically there is one point that makes me more anti-dp than pro: why not simply choose life without parole instead of death penalty?? Is it really just the costs? Or are there more arguments?? Would be really nice, if someone could answer this (so I could also use those arguments for my paper?!) Thanks in advance kathy Why settle for LWOP? Is that the best we can do? The desire to punish a murder with death is natural. The important question is whether or not it does anyone any good to act contrary to that desire. For psychopaths killing people is natural for them. I guess we should leave them alone then? |
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Rand
Banned
PRO-DP
Posts: 1,839
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Post by Rand on May 15, 2008 8:51:35 GMT -6
For psychopaths killing people is natural for them. I guess we should leave them alone then? I don't think it's natural in this case. ;D The act of killing is natural only for self defense or eating, I think. |
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Post by josephdphillips on May 15, 2008 8:52:43 GMT -6
josephdphillips: sorry I know you didn't say that to me and I really dont want to cause trouble, but: Isn't there a way of arguing without insulting other people? You're right. I apologize to any idiots who might have been offended by the comparison to Lawrence. |
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Post by ltdc on May 15, 2008 9:00:15 GMT -6
josephdphillips: sorry I know you didn't say that to me and I really dont want to cause trouble, but: Isn't there a way of arguing without insulting other people? You're right. I apologize to any idiots who might have been offended by the comparison to Lawrence.  |
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Post by lawrence on May 15, 2008 10:40:13 GMT -6
Thanks for that Joe, what a gay, sorry, what a guy . I didnt expect anything different from someone who is so politically correct, caring, unselfish and such an upstanding member of your community. Still from someone who doesnt give a shyte what kids think or what society thinks and blames everyone else except yourself for the worlds ills. As always Joe i take anything you say as gospel. For you are a messiah joe, to yourself. Im an Idiot, JEEEEZE. well you know what they say matey, takes one to ......... . Knob Rand my mother was French. My Grandparents are, were German. I asked because i didnt want to assume you were anything else other then what you are. |
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Post by lawrence on May 15, 2008 10:53:00 GMT -6
Kathy, don't be offended if Joe and all his one celled wisdom mocks another for having a different opinion from him. Hes called me worse then an idiot, he once called me obtuse  , me obtuse  Joe is a god unto himself who really is quite a simple man and only sees the world from his eyes because he is so traveled and worldly wise. Hes a gentle caring and loving individual especially with himself. It will take more then him to upset me, beside when he is not being a *jerk*, he actually does make some good comments........occasionally but still i cant lie, I'm honest even if he isn't. There you go. it takes all sorts to make a world. In Joe's eyes though, the world has to wrapped around the Stars and Stripes and nothing else matters. Whata gay, sorry whata guy, you can never call him insular, singular or typically American mind you i bet he wears white socks with sandals and tropical shirts and says god dam a lot. He looks that type. i have thick skin and well if you let one celled mongs upset you , you have come to the wrong site. I love him really.  |
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Post by kathy20 on May 15, 2008 11:31:12 GMT -6
well, I am not offended personally, I just wanted to suggest a more mature way of discussing...however, if that's not possible I can live with it. I was interested in arguments rather than insults, as I think dp (whether you agree with it or not) is quite a serious topic....and so its opinions I was asking for and to a certain point I also got them (thx for that)... But yeah I am not sooo easily offended as well...so I think I can cope with it . |
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Post by Gary on May 15, 2008 12:04:30 GMT -6
I just respect both positions (pro and anti) and I don't think that any of them are liars...they just see things from different perspectives.....
Misrepresenting facts and law is lying -- not merely expressing an opinion or seeing it from a different perspective. Those who are against the dp routinely lie and misrepresent the facts of the case and the procedural history in order to give the false impression that the dp is unfair.
And since you do not have the dp in Austria or in the EU, why would any nonAmerican have any interest in the dp unless it was to ban it in the US?
Again, if you read the detailed facts of these cases you would be sickened.
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, me obtuse 
