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Post by Charlene on Nov 5, 2006 12:08:10 GMT -6
Ronald Chambers is scheduled to be executed in January. Here is an article I found from BBC. The writer visited Chambers on death row, but clearly has conflicts with her sense of justice and the church's insistence on forgiveness and redemption. www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2006/04/27/beyond_redemption_feature.shtmlBeyond redemptionIf a sinner truly repents, should they be forgiven? Radio Devon's Pippa Quelch has been to Texas' Death Row where 400 sinners await execution… I first heard about Polunski's Death Row Unit during a chat over coffee with Sister Marie Barber, one of BBC Radio Devon's regular "Pause for Thought" contributors. She'd been writing to a murderer called Ronald Curtis Chambers for 10 years and said they shared a deep faith and warm sense of humour. Sister Marie is from the Order of Consecrated Women. She attends St Peter's Roman Catholic Cathedral in Plymouth and is a member of 'Human Writes', a British organisation that supports and befriends prisoners in the United States through letter writing. Chambers has never told Sister Marie details of the crime he was convicted of 30 years ago, but she says it's not important. (editorial comment from Char:) She told me his final appeal is likely to be heard this year and asked whether I'd like to travel to Texas with her to meet him. With creative funding from the BBC's English Region's Faith & Ethics Unit, I flew to Houston with Sister Marie earlier this year and after an hour's drive from the airport we arrived in Huntsville. Huntsville is known locally as "The City of Death" because all Texas State executions take place within its Walls Unit. Sometimes as many as three or four are scheduled in a week. In America's southern bible belt everyone appears to profess a faith in God. The religious community of Huntsville is close-knit, and news of our arrival spread quickly. We were warmly welcomed to break bread with church leaders and share many different local delicacies from Tex-Mex to home-baked brownies. We also attended several churches to get a true flavour of Texan worship: from traditional Catholic Mass and Anglican services to a lively black Gospel experience with much shouting from the pulpit! I sensed that many churches in Texas struggle with the concept of capital punishment. They preach redemption in a state that condemns sinners to death. In Texas it seems that God will forgive those who truly repent, but the Department of Criminal Justice will not. The Polunski Unit is about an hour's drive from Huntsville in a small town called Livingston. It was an intimidating experience to walk from the prison gates to death row. Running down the middle of a long room was a long row of individual cages, each about the size of a telephone box. Ronald Chambers was already waiting inside one of them. Death row prisoners are permitted no physical contact, so we had to speak through a telephone. Chambers seemed very pleased to see me and was keen to tell his story. He claims he's been told he is "beyond redemption" and has been refused a baptism because he has "too low an IQ to understand religion". A spokesperson for the Department of Criminal Justice later told me that all death row prisoners do have access to a chaplain and their religious needs are met wherever possible. When I met Ronald Chambers I found myself genuinely liking him. He was courteous, polite, intelligent and humorous. But after our meeting I researched his crime on the internet and was shocked to discover that Chambers had been convicted of an extremely brutal murder and robbery involving a gun. I have struggled with my faith and belief system since visiting death row. As a Christian I can happily sit in a comfortable pew of my local church each week thinking charitable thoughts and uttering a pious "Amen" after prayers spoken for those seeking God's grace. Forgiveness is easy from a distance. But what if the unthinkable actually happened? If Ronald Chambers had murdered someone I deeply love, I'm not sure I could ever find the strength to forgive him. I suspect that I would welcome his execution and shudder with revulsion at the very thought of him entering the gates of Heaven. How would you feel? To date Ronald Chambers still hasn't been baptised into the Church. He knows his execution by lethal injection may not be far off. But he says he has already found peace within himself and believes that God is watching over him.
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Post by bigmama on Nov 5, 2006 13:03:50 GMT -6
And that's as it should be. How is the Department of Criminal Justice supposed to know if someone has "truly" repented? They can't of course. None of us can.
I'm glad she couched that as something he "claims" and not as truth because it sounds like pure BS to me that he would be refused a baptism for that reason. If retarded inmates can receive baptism, why would he be denied?
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Post by rosebud on Nov 5, 2006 13:16:59 GMT -6
A really interesting read charlene. It is hard to believe that this man thinks he will be forgiven by god for what he has done.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Nov 5, 2006 13:19:44 GMT -6
I can't wait till Mr. Chambers goes to the Chamber.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 13:43:05 GMT -6
It was about time you woke up Sister. Took you long enough.
Char your editorial comment is priceless. ;D
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Nov 5, 2006 13:43:49 GMT -6
He deserves Death for his actions. He supposedly is intelligent? He murdered a man and robbed the man and his date for money. Tough. No sympathy here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 14:09:30 GMT -6
It is hard to believe that this man thinks he will be forgiven by god for what he has done. I don't want to get into a whole religious arguement but the God I believe in will forgive anyone of anything as long as they ask and repent for their sins. Does that mean he shouldn't be put to death? That is not my point at all, just that Forgiveness is something that the Lord will give if asked.
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Post by Charlene on Nov 5, 2006 14:42:01 GMT -6
Thanks - took awhile to find just the right picture but I think that one will do. To be clear, the author is not the nun - I suspect the sister is still snugly tucked in her bed. It was about time you woke up Sister. Took you long enough. Char your editorial comment is priceless. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 14:55:30 GMT -6
Thanks - took awhile to find just the right picture but I think that one will do. To be clear, the author is not the nun - I suspect the sister is still snugly tucked in her bed. It was about time you woke up Sister. Took you long enough. Char your editorial comment is priceless. ;D As usual, silly of me to think one of them might have come to their senses enough to think of what it might feel like for the victim's family instead of the murderer. Thank you for the clarification!
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Nov 5, 2006 17:41:49 GMT -6
Bluesilverfish, I truely believe the same...That God will forgive us if we call on him...BUT I also believe that justice has to be done. God gave us laws that we are to follow, both in the old and new testiments. We are also, in the New Testiment, supposed to follow the law of the land. In this case, this man is to executed for murder.
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Post by RickZ on Nov 5, 2006 18:15:28 GMT -6
A reporter from the Beeb wrote that? I wonder how it got by their internal moral equivalency censors? And where were their anti-American editors to juice the story up a bit? I'm confused.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 20:06:33 GMT -6
Bluesilverfish, I truely believe the same...That God will forgive us if we call on him...BUT I also believe that justice has to be done. God gave us laws that we are to follow, both in the old and new testiments. We are also, in the New Testiment, supposed to follow the law of the land. In this case, this man is to executed for murder. Oh I agree with you totally, my point was only about the forgiveness part of it all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 20:08:41 GMT -6
I do believe in God and I always thought, We should call on God if we decide to repent. God will forgive us if we are sincere in our hearts. Then our souls will not be lost in Hell. But we must follow "Mans law" and be punished if man so demands it.
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Nov 5, 2006 21:19:07 GMT -6
Forgiveness is part of it all. BUT the criminal justice system has no place for it.
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Post by Stormyweather on Nov 5, 2006 21:40:19 GMT -6
Forgiveness is part of it all. BUT the criminal justice system has no place for it. It seems some people don't realize that it's not the criminal justice's job to forgive murderers for victims or any other criminal. It's their job to see that justice is done.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2006 1:01:01 GMT -6
Forgiveness is part of it all. BUT the criminal justice system has no place for it. I agree, but when speaking about God and one asking for forgiveness the justice system isn't part of that.
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 6, 2006 3:47:44 GMT -6
Thanks - took awhile to find just the right picture but I think that one will do. To be clear, the author is not the nun - I suspect the sister is still snugly tucked in her bed. It was about time you woke up Sister. Took you long enough. Char your editorial comment is priceless. ;D I heard she sleeps around?
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 6, 2006 3:49:14 GMT -6
Forgiveness is part of it all. BUT the criminal justice system has no place for it. It seems some people don't realize that it's not the criminal justice's job to forgive murderers for victims or any other criminal. It's their job to see that justice is done. But if the justice system represents the people's will, and the people are god loving/fearing followers of a God who preaches to them to forgive, then how come these folk are filled?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2006 6:04:38 GMT -6
I can't wait till Mr. Chambers goes to the Chamber. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2006 15:49:50 GMT -6
Seems like this lad has been well prepped on a soon-to-come "retard" defense...."Im too retarded to be baptized, of course I,m too retarded to be executed" Novel, yet idiotic.
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Post by Stormyweather on Nov 6, 2006 21:40:00 GMT -6
It seems some people don't realize that it's not the criminal justice's job to forgive murderers for victims or any other criminal. It's their job to see that justice is done. But if the justice system represents the people's will, and the people are god loving/fearing followers of a God who preaches to them to forgive, then how come these folk are filled? Felix that goes to show you how little you know about people of the United States. First of all not every person believes in God and those who do their beliefs vary. So as far as I know most of the people's will says execute murderers. How can the criminal justice system forgive a criminal on someone else's behalf especially if their dead?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2006 1:36:47 GMT -6
I amazed this guy is still there - he has been there longer then I have been alive
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 7, 2006 3:05:22 GMT -6
But if the justice system represents the people's will, and the people are god loving/fearing followers of a God who preaches to them to forgive, then how come these folk are filled? Felix that goes to show you how little you know about people of the United States. First of all not every person believes in God and those who do their beliefs vary. So as far as I know most of the people's will says execute murderers. How can the criminal justice system forgive a criminal on someone else's behalf especially if their dead? Then how can the same justice system assume the dead person would not have wanted to forgive them? Same thing really, you're just choosing yourself which way to go, so stop trying to pretend its a victims choice.
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Post by Lotus Flower on Nov 7, 2006 3:33:16 GMT -6
I think we're getting mixed up on forgiveness vs justice. If you go to a strictly Biblical interpretation here.. God forgives anyone and everyone who asks but God never negates the consequences of that sin. So I think Texans DO forgive murderers who ask for it, but that doesn't negate that the murderer still needs to serve their sentence, including DP.
No one is saying Texans aren't "forgiving" of those serving LWOP, we don't let THEM out if they are remorseful and they still have to serve out their sentence (which, in theory, is to die in prison). It's only the DP that antis get their panties in a knot over. So be intellectually honest, dear anti, and admit your beef is with the DP period, you can couch it by tossing in what the victim might have wanted etc... But it wouldn't change your mind if the victim used to be a DP proponent, you'd find something else.
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 7, 2006 4:06:22 GMT -6
I think we're getting mixed up on forgiveness vs justice. If you go to a strictly Biblical interpretation here.. God forgives anyone and everyone who asks but God never negates the consequences of that sin. So I think Texans DO forgive murderers who ask for it, but that doesn't negate that the murderer still needs to serve their sentence, including DP. No one is saying Texans aren't "forgiving" of those serving LWOP, we don't let THEM out if they are remorseful and they still have to serve out their sentence (which, in theory, is to die in prison). It's only the DP that antis get their panties in a knot over. So be intellectually honest, dear anti, and admit your beef is with the DP period, you can couch it by tossing in what the victim might have wanted etc... But it wouldn't change your mind if the victim used to be a DP proponent, you'd find something else. You're absolutely right that the issue is the DP and it will always remain wrong in my view regardless of tghe status of the person who supports it. Pros also can never agt away from the fact that killing anyone, judicially or not, cheapens human life when it is not done in a setting that requires immediate self defence.
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Post by Lotus Flower on Nov 7, 2006 4:16:20 GMT -6
I think we're getting mixed up on forgiveness vs justice. If you go to a strictly Biblical interpretation here.. God forgives anyone and everyone who asks but God never negates the consequences of that sin. So I think Texans DO forgive murderers who ask for it, but that doesn't negate that the murderer still needs to serve their sentence, including DP. No one is saying Texans aren't "forgiving" of those serving LWOP, we don't let THEM out if they are remorseful and they still have to serve out their sentence (which, in theory, is to die in prison). It's only the DP that antis get their panties in a knot over. So be intellectually honest, dear anti, and admit your beef is with the DP period, you can couch it by tossing in what the victim might have wanted etc... But it wouldn't change your mind if the victim used to be a DP proponent, you'd find something else. You're absolutely right that the issue is the DP and it will always remain wrong in my view regardless of tghe status of the person who supports it. Pros also can never agt away from the fact that killing anyone, judicially or not, cheapens human life when it is not done in a setting that requires immediate self defence. I would say the last sentence is exactly what I would say to an anti in response to being pro. And I'm glad you are honest that it's not about what the victim could have wanted or this or that... YOU are personally against it. Just want other antis to be honest about why they are anti. AI and political thinktanks like it, don't really care who the victims are, they just don't want DP, but they won't admit that, it's always "he's innocent" "the DA wears women's underwear" etc.
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 7, 2006 4:22:51 GMT -6
You're absolutely right that the issue is the DP and it will always remain wrong in my view regardless of tghe status of the person who supports it. Pros also can never agt away from the fact that killing anyone, judicially or not, cheapens human life when it is not done in a setting that requires immediate self defence. I would say the last sentence is exactly what I would say to an anti in response to being pro. And I'm glad you are honest that it's not about what the victim could have wanted or this or that... YOU are personally against it. Just want other antis to be honest about why they are anti. AI and political thinktanks like it, don't really care who the victims are, they just don't want DP, but they won't admit that, it's always "he's innocent" "the DA wears women's underwear" etc. whats wrong with wearing womens underwear?
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Post by Lotus Flower on Nov 7, 2006 4:26:53 GMT -6
I would say the last sentence is exactly what I would say to an anti in response to being pro. And I'm glad you are honest that it's not about what the victim could have wanted or this or that... YOU are personally against it. Just want other antis to be honest about why they are anti. AI and political thinktanks like it, don't really care who the victims are, they just don't want DP, but they won't admit that, it's always "he's innocent" "the DA wears women's underwear" etc. whats wrong with wearing womens underwear? OH MY (do I ask thong or brief?...no shelli..just walk away...)
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Post by Felix2 on Nov 7, 2006 4:37:49 GMT -6
whats wrong with wearing womens underwear? OH MY (do I ask thong or brief?...no shelli..just walk away...) I have never seen the problem with women wearing womens underwear, though I do prefer it when they go commando as snowstorm admits to haveing done on a few occasions.
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Post by Lotus Flower on Nov 7, 2006 5:37:28 GMT -6
OH MY (do I ask thong or brief?...no shelli..just walk away...) I have never seen the problem with women wearing womens underwear, though I do prefer it when they go commando as snowstorm admits to haveing done on a few occasions. OMG I knew I should have walked away. TMI on snowy!
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