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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 15:28:30 GMT -6
The 'I'm Human' incident happened with David Lawson in North Carolina. The report I read about Jimmy Lee Gray was that while he was banging his head, his eyes were rolled back. He made only guttural sounds which are common in anything that are in the throes of death. Have you ever gone hunting, got something with a clean kill shot and see it twitch, kick and make strange noises? It is the same thing that would happen sometimes when a person was hanged cleanly (neck broken in the right place), there would be twitches and some movement despite all other signs of life being absent. I am not saying what happened to Jimmy Lee Gray (remember, he did rape and murder a 3 year old girl) was just nervous system impulses of an effectively dead man, but I can believe he was in limbo between life and death while not actually being conscious. He apparently hit his head so hard that he fractured his own skull, I heard perhaps even there was exposed brain matter. A living person who recieves blows like that would have become unconscious by even a fraction of that force. I'm not defending the use of the Gas Chamber, I think I've expressed my point about it numerous times already; but I think the portrayal of Jimmy Lee needlessly suffering at the hands of incompetent staff is a distortion of the truth by way of over-simplification, designed to discredit capital punishment as a whole. I honestly think there was more incompetence in Florida in their use of their electric chair than Mississippi and their Gas Chamber. The consequence of serious error with a Gas Chamber is deadly serious, so despite a little 'loosening of the nerves' on the part of the executioner, that man was an absolute professional and knew that chamber inside and out. I read a book by Donald Hocutt called 'The Last Face You Will Ever See'. He was the team leader/executioner to all the other Gas Chamber executions in Mississippi after Jimmy Lee. Though he was the assistant to the head executioner (the name escapes me) during Jimmy Lee. Hocutt's side of the story I am much more liable to believe as opposed to the condemned's attorney or media witnesses. He could actually see Jimmy Lee's face, where as everyone in the witness room could not since the chair faces backward to them. Hocutt was not a rabid pro capital punishment supporter, he was like Pierrepoint in that he seemed to separate his emotion and opinions and just did the job asked of him. His opinion of the Jimmy Lee execution was that he could have been sipping on tea and eating crumpets watching him die; the guy definitely deserved what he got, that's for sure!
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Post by Californian on Feb 19, 2014 17:53:00 GMT -6
The 'I'm Human' incident happened with David Lawson in North Carolina. The report I read about Jimmy Lee Gray was that while he was banging his head, his eyes were rolled back. He made only guttural sounds which are common in anything that are in the throes of death. I just googled that and you're correct. my apologies. MMmmm. Not sure there's a correlation between human and animals. I've shot a deer's heart out from about 90 yards, the shot also broke his leg and he still got almost 200 yards. Not sure a human could do that, and I've treated lots and lots of humans in a combat zone. I will say it was common for them not to know when they were injured, and that includes me. Glad we agree. As I said, he was sentenced to death and he died. End of story.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 13:53:30 GMT -6
Is it necessary that a lethal injection, or manner of execution, be humane? These are convicted criminals (assuming hard evidence and no human error), and they are sentenced to die. Whatever choices and actions landed a person in this position, is it our duty to feed, house, and humanely kill this individual? Wouldn't we save a lot of money and materials that could ultimately be used to help needy citizens in our own community and other parts of the world if we just took care of the criminals in a speedier fashion?
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Post by rick4404 on Feb 24, 2014 13:03:07 GMT -6
Some argue that lethal injection isnt painless or effective quick enough. No consideration of course was given to the victims. Cruel & unusual punishment, of course! Justice? Depends on the person(s) involved on both sides. Will lethal injection be banish forever? Somewhere down the road it probably will, but not in my life time I hope. Well, the anti's are firing everything they've got in the arsenal to make lethal injection go away. I thought the U.S. Supreme Court had already weighed in on the lethal injection issue. But, lethal injection is on hold in a number of states and the federal government, mostly because supplies of the drugs that are used in a lethal injection are scarce; thanks to the grandstanding of the drug companies that no longer want to make their products available to prisons for executions, instead of for their stated purposes.
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Post by rick4404 on Feb 24, 2014 13:04:34 GMT -6
One that was particularly grizzly in nature involved a convicted murderer named Jimmy Lee Gray. Unless the state executed a species of bear (ursus horribilis) found primarily in the northern Rocky Mountain states and Alaska, I believe "grisly" is the word you're looking for. Yep, you're right. I stand corrected.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 15:40:19 GMT -6
I'm a bit late into this discussion, but I'll add my two cents worth: From what I understand, a properly conducted hanging causes near-instant unconsciousness, and official death in a time comparable to lethal injection. Now, a properly conducted hanging requires that the drop be set correctly for weight and physical condition. Setting for weight is a science - drop tables exist and have been well tested - but setting for condition is a bit of an art. A person executed in Kuwait struggled for several seconds when the drop proved to be insufficient due to being, as www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/ says "a fitness fanatic." ( www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/Hanging_myths.pdf). I'm on record as saying that a properly conducted hanging would be how I'd prefer to be executed, if I were (factually) guilty of a capital crime. From what I understand, firing squad is actually much more prone to suffering on the part of the person being executed. In order for there to be a quick death, the bullets must hit the heart. Humans, even marksman, are imperfect shots, and it is not uncommon that none of the bullets actually hit the heart, causing either a much slower death or the delivery of a coup de grace - a shot to the head.
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Post by ltdc on Mar 19, 2014 16:24:35 GMT -6
it is not uncommon that none of the bullets actually hit the heart, well actually there have only been three firing squads in the US since furhman. and it was very uncommon for any bullets to miss the heart. however, in at least in one of them, had death not been quick there was no provision for a follow up shot.
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Post by Stormyweather on Mar 19, 2014 17:13:01 GMT -6
On the other hand dearest fugly........ The deciding factor should be whether you'd allow yourself or loved ones to go through being murdered. I know you won't have anything to say about that. You never do. You just keep on typing the propaganda put out by all of your scumpal friends. You don't care one bit about the victims or the people that loved them. You just love your precious murderers. Aaaw... You're so cute when you're angry Well you're are a snot and it's not cute.
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Post by starbux on Mar 29, 2014 16:55:13 GMT -6
A number of you have brought up nitrogen asphyxiation. You might be on to something here. Not sure if there would need to be an actual chamber constructed, much like the gas chambers of old, or if it could be as simple as strapping a condemned to a chair and putting a mask over his/her face. It would seem to be a very clinical death, would involve no hazardous materials that could put anyone in close proximity in danger, etc. Personally, I doubt that the cyanide gas chambers will ever be resurrected. No one makes them anymore, nor the working parts for a gas chamber. Second, the handful of gas chambers that are still around (San Quentin, Mississippi, North Carolina, etc.) could very well leak during an execution, thus putting those in close proximity to the outside of the chamber -- witnesses, prison staff, etc. in danger of being exposed to the deadly fumes in the event the chamber were to leak. I would think a system that involved a depressurization chamber similar to what military pilots go through in physiology training would work. You would suck the air out to the point where they would be at 25,000 in pressure altitude. Within in a minute they would go to sleep. Then introduce the nitrogen, then a few minutes later they would pass out and be dead. The only physiological sensation they would get is possibly their fingertips and toes might get a tingling sensation. They would have a similar sensation to being intoxicated with alcohol, which induces the same effect. The nitrogen being introduced would cause the oxygen molecules to bind preventing the brain from getting enough.
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Post by Californian on Mar 30, 2014 14:01:49 GMT -6
The nitrogen being introduced would cause the oxygen molecules to bind preventing the brain from getting enough. Uh...huh? You're breathing 79% N right now and the 02 molecules still seem to be working.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 1:17:40 GMT -6
The nitrogen being introduced would cause the oxygen molecules to bind preventing the brain from getting enough. Uh...huh? You're breathing 79% N right now and the 02 molecules still seem to be working. haha. yes, we seem to get these nitros in here from time to time. Hypoxia doesn't need the introduction of nitrogen to work. And we don't need to employ the drama of an RD. Just pump out the air nice and slowly to a cabin altitude of about 35,000 ft and let nature take its course.
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Post by whitediamonds on Apr 15, 2014 11:42:56 GMT -6
Uh...huh? You're breathing 79% N right now and the 02 molecules still seem to be working. haha. yes, we seem to get these nitros in here from time to time. Hypoxia doesn't need the introduction of nitrogen to work. And we don't need to employ the drama of an RD. Just pump out the air nice and slowly to a cabin altitude of about 35,000 ft and let nature take its course. Like the missing plane?
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Post by starbux on Apr 21, 2014 1:05:16 GMT -6
The deciding factor should be whether you'd allow yourself or your loved ones to go through it. Here is though Fug! There are dirtballs who have killed their own parents or other familly members to gain some money. At that point they would no longer be loved one. And someone who so brazen to kill probably would not think twice kill their loved ones in order to get something out of it. So yes I would support killing a loved one as you would call it if they cross line. Dont cross that line fugly you here me! Don't cross it or else you will be dealt with in the harshest manner the law allows.
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Post by rayozz on Apr 21, 2014 1:44:07 GMT -6
Josef Jakobs was a German spy executed at the Tower of London in 1941, by firing squad. Normally spies were executed by hanging but Jakobs broke his ankle when being captured. Due to him not being able to stand at the gallows (due to his leg injury), they took him to the Tower to be executed by firing squad. As it was a military case they had to use soldiers. They used 8 riflemen from the elite Scots Guard. A cloth the size of a matchbox was placed over Jakobs' heart. Not one shot hit centre of target, close, one actually hit him in the head. He died instantly. Demonstrates there can be flaws.
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Post by Californian on Apr 21, 2014 8:18:09 GMT -6
.. one actually hit him in the head. He died instantly. Demonstrates there can be flaws. Interesting that you see that as a "flaw." I see that as a "feature."
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Post by ltdc on May 16, 2014 11:54:50 GMT -6
one actually hit him in the head. He died instantly. Demonstrates there can be flaws. that wasn't a flaw. that was an "aim". apparently quite effective at that.
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Post by Californian on May 16, 2014 14:31:45 GMT -6
one actually hit him in the head. He died instantly. Demonstrates there can be flaws. that wasn't a flaw. that was an "aim". apparently quite effective at that. It's pretty hard to imagine a member of the military missing center mass of a human at what, 10 yards? And I'll bet none of the shooters said "whoops!," either. We either have to get this guy more range time or a medal. I'm down with a Bronze Star.
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Post by whitediamonds on May 17, 2014 8:58:21 GMT -6
. Which leaves us the obvious choices of firing squad and hanging; both of which have survived constitutional challenges over the years. Assembling a firing squad to perform an execution doesn't exactly take rocket science. Hanging, if done properly, is pretty much a quick and painless death. Any state could put up a gallows. And Utah is considering just that for executions, the firing squad.
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Post by ltdc on May 19, 2014 11:25:30 GMT -6
that wasn't a flaw. that was an "aim". apparently quite effective at that. It's pretty hard to imagine a member of the military missing center mass of a human at what, 10 yards? he was just confirming that he didn't draw the "short straw".
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Post by Matt on May 25, 2014 12:00:16 GMT -6
I never liked LI. I think the electric chair or a firing squad serves the purpose much more efficiently. There is no problems with supply and you are not waiting 10-15 for the condemned to die. I've never liked LI. It's far too "process" driven for my taste, with umpteen steps and regulations required before the condemned actually dies. This kind of method has proven far too susceptible to being "medicalized", which has played right into the hands of the Anti movement. It will be the end of capital punishment in America.
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sanquentin
Freshman
Pro dp, but only for murder and for rape(either seperately or together), and never mandatory.
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Post by sanquentin on May 31, 2014 11:50:14 GMT -6
Has a bullet to the back of the head, a la Belarus, ever been botched?
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Post by Matt on May 31, 2014 12:34:50 GMT -6
Has a bullet to the back of the head, a la Belarus, ever been botched? I can't imagine it has. But even China has largely done away with the firing squad (which wasn't at all, it was a bullet - or even several - to the back of the head) in favor of LI. I think Utah was the last US state to retain the firing squad as an option, but they may have done away with it in favor of LI. Someone here could check. LI was originally conceived of and promulgated as a "clean" way to execute people, promising a quick and painless end for the condemned, with no blood, no broken necks, no fried eyeballs popping out, and no soiled diapers. But all it has done has been to help end capital punishment in America, enabling Antis to surface a Holy Grail argument: LI is not a process to kill, but a process to end life. The distinction is crucial, allowing LI to become conflated with the practice of medicine, which seeks to preserve life, not terminate it. Antis have successfully attacked the process of LI, seeking to force states to provide physicians in attendance at executions in order to insure a correct and painless death for the condemned, then litigating the inherent hypocrisy of such a requirement. They have also begun to go after the chemicals (drugs) used in the process, seeking to identify the source manufacturers, and, in a dual strategy, engaging in a publicity campaign to shame the company while simultaneously attacking the purity of the compounds and the mixing process used to make the LI agents. All of this has also played nicely into our own societal squeamishness about judicial execution. A substantial majority of Americans say they are in favor of capital punishment, but when it comes right down to it, most of us are too morally weak to stand up for it. We'll bay for a serial killer's blood under the headsman's axe the day after he is captured, but 20 years later when he's laying on the gurney, nobody cares or remembers why he's there in the first place.
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Post by starbux on May 31, 2014 20:55:36 GMT -6
Utah I believe has firing squad and provides the condemn the choice of execution. If the condemned does not chose it reverts automatically to LI.
As for physicians being present, I believe they are banned by their practice because it is "contradictory," to their oath. However, Texas uses a trained EMT to administer the IV. Other I am not sure that is requirement, I think they train prison staff.
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sanquentin
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Pro dp, but only for murder and for rape(either seperately or together), and never mandatory.
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Post by sanquentin on Jun 1, 2014 10:50:14 GMT -6
Actually, at this point, any new DPs handed down by Utah are to be by LI. FS as abolished in (I think) '04, with the caveat that anybody convicted before that year gets to choose FS if desired (I think).
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Post by rick4404 on Jun 2, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -6
Actually, at this point, any new DPs handed down by Utah are to be by LI. FS as abolished in (I think) '04, with the caveat that anybody convicted before that year gets to choose FS if desired (I think). Yes, you are correct. In 2004, the Utah Legislature passed and then-Gov. Olean Walker signed, changes to the state's death penalty code. Among the changes: 1. All new death sentences imposed following the enactment date of the legislation in 2004 would solely be by lethal injection. 2. All inmates who were already sentenced to death prior to the change in the law in 2004 would be allowed to choose between the firing squad and lethal injection. 3. Should lethal injection be found to be unconstitutional by any state or federal court of competent jurisdiction, then Utah would go back solely to the firing squad to carry out executions. So, if Utah were to drop lethal injection and go back to the firing squad as the sole means of death, they would need to make certain that the change would only come into play if lethal injection were found to be unconstitutional or somehow impractical. Impractical meaning if the prison is unable to obtain a sufficient supply of the lethal chemicals, or if the condemned prisoner's physical condition would not allow him or her to effectively receive an IV (collapsed veins, etc.), things along that line.
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Post by josephdphillips on Jun 2, 2014 11:37:19 GMT -6
[All of this has also played nicely into our own societal squeamishness about judicial execution. A substantial majority of Americans say they are in favor of capital punishment, but when it comes right down to it, most of us are too morally weak to stand up for it. We'll bay for a serial killer's blood under the headsman's axe the day after he is captured, but 20 years later when he's laying on the gurney, nobody cares or remembers why he's there in the first place. Polls are meaningless. You can phrase a poll question to get any kind of response you want. Americans' weak support of capital punishment reflects their general moral ambivalence about murder I would wager that a tiny percentage of this august forum's members agree with the following, simple statement: Murder, defined as premeditated killing of a human being with malice, is wrong in all circumstances.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 3, 2014 8:51:33 GMT -6
Premeditated killing of a human being with "Malice", is wrong in all circumstances.
Capital murder in the first degree= malice is desire to inflect harm/suffering out of hostile impulse or deep seated madness commiting an unlawful act with evil intent. Evil...
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Post by josephdphillips on Jun 3, 2014 9:59:57 GMT -6
malice is desire to inflect harm/suffering out of hostile impulse or deep seated madness commiting an unlawful act with evil intent. Evil... Whose definition is that? California's definition of malice is quite different. That one lets many, if not most, murderers off the hook.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 3, 2014 10:35:05 GMT -6
Dictionary, as many yrs as I have been alive definition of Malice.
I do not see how that definition gets murderers off the hook.. Execution is not done with any of the above description.
Legal Term intention to do injury to another party deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of anothr human being, malice is implied when no provocation appears Ca;. pen code 188
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Post by josephdphillips on Jun 3, 2014 11:08:04 GMT -6
I do not see how that definition gets murderers off the hook.. Execution is not done with any of the above description. The defense bar would love having that definition of malice become the de jure legal standard as well. For instance, take "malice is desire to inflect harm/suffering out of hostile impulse or deep seated madness." How about murders that do not involve hostile impulses? In California we prosecute killer drunk drivers as murderers. Ditto women who do drugs while they're pregnant and kill their children in utero. Under a loose definition of malice, we would not be prosecuting those killers. And what the hell is "deep-seated madness?" What if the "madness" is only temporary? Could you avoid a murder conviction that way? And what is "evil intent?" In California intent is not an element of murder, evil or otherwise. I'm not badgering you, I'm just arguing in favor of the concepts of express and implied malice, which is what we have here.
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