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Post by arizonavet on Jan 5, 2011 15:44:26 GMT -6
www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html#deterOne excerpt from this cogent article.... The most striking protection of innocent life has been seen in Texas, which executes more murderers than any other state. According to JFA (Justice for All), the Texas murder rate in 1991 was 15.3 per 100,000. By 1999, it had fallen to 6.1 -- a drop of 60 percent. Within Texas, the most aggressive death penalty prosecutions are in Harris County (the Houston area). Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of Harris County murders has plummeted from 701 to 241 -- a 72 percent decrease. Does the dp deter murderers......the facts speak for themselves
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Post by RFisher on Jan 5, 2011 16:04:59 GMT -6
Elegant proof, indeed.
Harris country proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that when prosecutors actively seek the DP, murders go down by a huge margin.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 5, 2011 18:00:38 GMT -6
Yet, another thread I want to Thank You yet again, same topics I needed today on both posting you shared, for great information needed.....today !!!.
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Post by Kay on Jan 5, 2011 18:38:30 GMT -6
I doubt very much that capital punishment serves as a deterrent: Here's another article that clearly disputes the theory. Please note, killing a peace officer is capital murder and death penalty eligible: More law enforcement officers were killed in Texas than any other state in 2010.This fact is a reminder of the ultimate sacrifice Lt. Tommy Collins of the Wichita Falls Police Department made to save the lives of fellow police officers. During this past year 18 officers lost their lives while serving the citizens of Texas. The state of California had the second most officer deaths with 11, according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund. A total of 160 federal, state and local law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 12 months in the line of duty across the United States. This is a dramatic increase over 2009 when 117 officer fatalities across the nation were reported. Fifty-nine officers have been shot and killed during the past year. "A more brazen, cold-blooded criminal element is on the prowl in America and they don't think twice about killing a cop," said NLEOMF Chairman Craig W. Floyd Tuesday. Tommy Collins has become an icon of police officer courage in the line of duty. A sniper in Wichita Falls, Texas, opened fire on innocent citizens in 1989. Two Wichita Falls police officers were wounded as they responded to the dramatic call to protect the people of Wichita Falls. Lt. Collins did not have to do what he did. Not everyone in this world has the courage he possessed when he put his own life on the line to save the lives of his fellow officers and the other people who were targets on that dark day in Wichita Falls history. Lt. Collins was fatally shot as he rescued his fellow officers. He was survived by a family who has given more than its fair share of service to this community. His wife Medrith has attended each annual ceremony honoring fallen officers at the Wichita Falls Police Department since 1989. Son J.T. Collins continues to serve as an officer with the Wichita Falls Police Department and daughter Vicki Collins serves as an investigator with the Wichita County District Attorney's Office. Daughter Robin serves the community in the medical field. As we near the end of this year in which law enforcement fatalities have increased by 37 per cent over the previous year, we need to remember the sacrifices brave law enforcement officers such as Lt. Tommy Collins have made to our community. www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-wichita-falls/more-peace-officers-killed-texas-2010-than-any-other-state?render=print
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Post by Lauren on Jan 5, 2011 18:44:35 GMT -6
I doubt very much that capital punishment serves as a deterrent Generalizing,I have to agree, but then again, I also don't think LWOP serves as a deterrent either. However, I also believe that the prospect of spending life in prison, or the chance of being put to death by LI, can deter an individual person from committing murder, but then again, the person is rational to realize the cost outweighs the benefit of committing crime. If we believe those who commit murder are irrational, then deterrence probably won't work for them.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 5, 2011 18:59:45 GMT -6
Capital punishment certainly proves it would have been a deterrent if like the other thread arizonavet placed, had been used, would have been a deterrent to so many other lives lost. Factual no generalizing there.
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Post by Kay on Jan 5, 2011 19:01:37 GMT -6
Capital punishment certainly proves it would have been a deterent if like the other thread arizonavet placed, had been used, would have been a deterent to so many other lives lost. Factual no generalizing there. If it's truly a deterrent, then why did the state with the busiest death chamber in the nation experience the largest number of law officers slain?
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Post by Kay on Jan 5, 2011 19:05:14 GMT -6
I doubt very much that capital punishment serves as a deterrent Generalizing,I have to agree, but then again, I also don't think LWOP serves as a deterrent either. However, I also believe that the prospect of spending life in prison, or the chance of being put to death by LI, can deter an individual person from committing murder, but then again, the person is rational to realize the cost outweighs the benefit of committing crime. If we believe those who commit murder are irrational, then deterrence probably won't work for them. I agree Lauren, that neither of the worst punishments that we as a society can inflict, have a deterrent effect on murder.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 5, 2011 19:10:19 GMT -6
For an individual intent to murder no" it would not be a deterrent, but one cannot ever factually know if it did, for any individual whom may have been tempted too, or near the point of no return not follow thru.
Was capitol punishment mean't to be one in the first place?(deterrent) or placed as a law to warn the consequences may if murder qualify on for it's use?
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Post by Kay on Jan 5, 2011 19:14:00 GMT -6
For an individual intent to murder no" it would not be a deterrent, but one cannot ever factually know if it did, for any individual whom may have been tempted too, or near the point of no return not follow thru. Was capitol punishment mean't to be one in the first place?(deterrent) or placed as a law to warn the consequences may if murder qualify on for it's use? Is English your second language, because I have problems interpreting your posts? I think what you're saying is that you agree it's not a deterrent, but a consequence of one's actions?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 5, 2011 19:20:29 GMT -6
For an individual intent to murder no" it would not be a deterrent, but one cannot ever factually know if it did, for any individual whom may have been tempted too, or near the point of no return not follow thru. Was capitol punishment mean't to be one in the first place?(deterrent) or placed as a law to warn the consequences may if murder qualify on for it's use? Is English your second language, because I have problems interpreting your posts? I think what you're saying is that you agree it's not a deterrent, but a consequence of one's actions? Yep that is what the first part is saying (I do not think it is a deterrent) No it will not .. My second sentence I do not think the DP was meant to deter it will certainly NOT stop an idividual who is hell bent on killing for sure.
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Post by Big Al on Jan 5, 2011 19:28:33 GMT -6
16,000 plus murders in 2010. 46 murderers put to death in 2010. 2 murderers sentenced to death in Harris County (the capital punishment of the world). Do you REALLY think anybody is being deterred?
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Post by RFisher on Jan 5, 2011 19:51:33 GMT -6
I doubt very much that capital punishment serves as a deterrent: Here's another article that clearly disputes the theory. Please note, killing a peace officer is capital murder and death penalty eligible: That article certainly does not dispute the facts so clearly shown in Harris County over the years. I do not mean to belittle or demean the deaths pf law enforcement officers. 2009 was a fifty year low in officers killed, so no doubt it would rise in 2010. Further, the rise was back up to normal when you look at the charts detailing officers shot/killed deliberately over the years from 1959 through 2010. The 18 officers killed in Texas were NOT just those who died by results of DP eligible acts, but a combination of murder, traffic related and those who were killed on the roadside while doing traffic tickets. Your link did not mention that. "Firearms-related fatalities: End of Year 2010 In 2010, firearm-related fatalities climbed to 61 line of duty deaths, 24 percent higher than in 2009 when 49 officers were killed. While the 2010 total was high compared to the rest of the decade, fatal shootings have decreased more than 45 percent since the 1970s.For the second year in a row, officers continue to be shot in ambush style attacks. In 2010, twelve officers were killed in these vicious attacks accounting for 20 percent of all fatal shootings. Eight officers were killed responding to domestic violence calls, a drop from 12 in 2009. The dangers of arresting suspects greatly increased in 2010, with 7 officers shot and killed while attempting to make an arrest. Four of those officers were members of the Chicago Police Department, which has lost five officers this year." www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2010_Law_Enforcement_Fatalities_Report.pdfOne of the ambush attacks occurred in Alaska a NON DP state with where two officers were ambushed and killed at the same time. There had been NO Alaskan Police Officers murdered in the line of duty since December of 2003. www.akpeaceofficermemorial.org/2001-2010.htm
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Post by Big Al on Jan 5, 2011 20:38:45 GMT -6
I doubt very much that capital punishment serves as a deterrent: Here's another article that clearly disputes the theory. Please note, killing a peace officer is capital murder and death penalty eligible: That article certainly does not dispute the facts so clearly shown in Harris County over the years. I do not mean to belittle or demean the deaths pf law enforcement officers. 2009 was a fifty year low in officers killed, so no doubt it would rise in 2010. Further, the rise was back up to normal when you look at the charts detailing officers shot/killed deliberately over the years from 1959 through 2010. The 18 officers killed in Texas were NOT just those who died by results of DP eligible acts, but a combination of murder, traffic related and those who were killed on the roadside while doing traffic tickets. Your link did not mention that. "Firearms-related fatalities: End of Year 2010 In 2010, firearm-related fatalities climbed to 61 line of duty deaths, 24 percent higher than in 2009 when 49 officers were killed. While the 2010 total was high compared to the rest of the decade, fatal shootings have decreased more than 45 percent since the 1970s.For the second year in a row, officers continue to be shot in ambush style attacks. In 2010, twelve officers were killed in these vicious attacks accounting for 20 percent of all fatal shootings. Eight officers were killed responding to domestic violence calls, a drop from 12 in 2009. The dangers of arresting suspects greatly increased in 2010, with 7 officers shot and killed while attempting to make an arrest. Four of those officers were members of the Chicago Police Department, which has lost five officers this year." www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2010_Law_Enforcement_Fatalities_Report.pdfOne of the ambush attacks occurred in Alaska a NON DP state with where two officers were ambushed and killed at the same time. There had been NO Alaskan Police Officers murdered in the line of duty since December of 2003. www.akpeaceofficermemorial.org/2001-2010.htm Harris County sent 2 people to DR last year. Of those that were executed 6 or 7 were from Harris County from 10 years ago. Where is the deterrence in that? ?
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Post by Big Al on Jan 5, 2011 20:42:05 GMT -6
The Death Penalty is NOT a deterrent. LWOP is NOT a deterrent. Prison time is NOT a deterrent. Criminals DO NOT think they are going to get caught. Especially the more heinous crimes like murder and rape and kidnapping etc..... It may be a deterrent to car theft or maybe jaywalking but murderers will NOT be deterred by the DP. If any statistic goes down then it's because of another reason or multiple other reasons. Not because of the DP. Do you really think those losers have that in mind when committing the crimes?
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Post by RFisher on Jan 5, 2011 21:51:29 GMT -6
That article certainly does not dispute the facts so clearly shown in Harris County over the years. I do not mean to belittle or demean the deaths pf law enforcement officers. 2009 was a fifty year low in officers killed, so no doubt it would rise in 2010. Further, the rise was back up to normal when you look at the charts detailing officers shot/killed deliberately over the years from 1959 through 2010. The 18 officers killed in Texas were NOT just those who died by results of DP eligible acts, but a combination of murder, traffic related and those who were killed on the roadside while doing traffic tickets. Your link did not mention that. "Firearms-related fatalities: End of Year 2010 In 2010, firearm-related fatalities climbed to 61 line of duty deaths, 24 percent higher than in 2009 when 49 officers were killed. While the 2010 total was high compared to the rest of the decade, fatal shootings have decreased more than 45 percent since the 1970s.For the second year in a row, officers continue to be shot in ambush style attacks. In 2010, twelve officers were killed in these vicious attacks accounting for 20 percent of all fatal shootings. Eight officers were killed responding to domestic violence calls, a drop from 12 in 2009. The dangers of arresting suspects greatly increased in 2010, with 7 officers shot and killed while attempting to make an arrest. Four of those officers were members of the Chicago Police Department, which has lost five officers this year." www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2010_Law_Enforcement_Fatalities_Report.pdfOne of the ambush attacks occurred in Alaska a NON DP state with where two officers were ambushed and killed at the same time. There had been NO Alaskan Police Officers murdered in the line of duty since December of 2003. www.akpeaceofficermemorial.org/2001-2010.htm Harris County sent 2 people to DR last year. Of those that were executed 6 or 7 were from Harris County from 10 years ago. Where is the deterrence in that? ? "Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of Harris County murders has plummeted from 701 to 241 -- a 72 percent decrease." I don't mean to be a smart aleck, but you do realize that when deterence is working, that means they won't have as many people to execute because there are not as many murders going on?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 8:04:51 GMT -6
Yes, yes... and TX executions have far reaching (and more effective) effects than just in TX:
New York's murder rate in 1990 was 14.5 (2605 murders) and by 2009 was down to 4.0 (778 murders).
And, if that's not proof enough for ya'll, here's more:
In 2005, Houston and Dallas each had murder rates under 17.0 (16.3 and 16.4 respectively) while NYC had a murder rate of 6.6.
Yessindeedy, <hawkspit> the DP is an amazing tool against murder........................... the facts speak for themselves.
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Post by Californian on Jan 6, 2011 8:38:03 GMT -6
If it's truly a deterrent, then why did the state with the busiest death chamber in the nation experience the largest number of law officers slain? Kay: I believe you're using a logic fault called "generalizing from the specific" to reach your conclusion. Statistically speaking, the murder of a police officer in the line of duty is, well, just another murder, as much as ordinary people like us abhor that thought. George's posit could much more easily be attacked by pointing out that murder overall in the U.S. has dropped, (because it has) or considering that taking one (admittedly rather violent) county in Texas is cherry-picking.
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Post by arizonavet on Jan 6, 2011 9:05:57 GMT -6
Capital punishment certainly proves it would have been a deterent if like the other thread arizonavet placed, had been used, would have been a deterent to so many other lives lost. Factual no generalizing there. If it's truly a deterrent, then why did the state with the busiest death chamber in the nation experience the largest number of law officers slain? Kay...True, cogent, statistics don't involve just one "angle", or isolated way of looking at anything. It could involve many other factors. When you see that over a period of years, murders went down, as the death penalty was "on the table"....it comes closer to being relavent, or meaningful. Also, even Texas executes an unbelievably small percentage of even the worst of the worst......IMHO, this already huge advantage that the dp gives us would be much higher, if any state executed, say, 25 percent of murderers. Arizonavet, now living in Dallas Texas...(I know, it's confusing)
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Post by RFisher on Jan 6, 2011 9:55:26 GMT -6
Yes, yes... and TX executions have far reaching (and more effective) effects than just in TX: New York's murder rate in 1990 was 14.5 (2605 murders) and by 2009 was down to 4.0 (778 murders). And, if that's not proof enough for ya'll, here's more: In 2005, Houston and Dallas each had murder rates under 17.0 (16.3 and 16.4 respectively) while NYC had a murder rate of 6.6. Yessindeedy, <hawkspit> the DP is an amazing tool against murder........................... the facts speak for themselves. New York is even similar to Texas in illegal immigrants, border violence, climate, size, etc. and we are supposed to compare them? Yes, I'll quote you: Yessindeedy, <hawkspit>
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Post by dude on Jan 6, 2011 10:40:45 GMT -6
I don't give a rat's ass whether the DP alone deters. It is a PUNISHMENT. A potentially unpleasant result of your decision to murder (or in my dream world, rape as well). Deterrence has to come some other way. Before crime happens. Maybe that's an argument for public executions.
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Post by arizonavet on Jan 6, 2011 11:10:42 GMT -6
Yet, another thread I want to Thank You yet again, same topics I needed today on both posting you shared, for great information needed.....today !!!. You are too kind White Diamonds.... I've looked for days for this info....this site is a real gold mine.. for anyone interested in two huge questions to the pro & anti debate.... the likelyhood of non-executed murderers....murdering again.... And capital punishment as a deterrent....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 12:49:49 GMT -6
Yes, yes... and TX executions have far reaching (and more effective) effects than just in TX: New York's murder rate in 1990 was 14.5 (2605 murders) and by 2009 was down to 4.0 (778 murders). And, if that's not proof enough for ya'll, here's more: In 2005, Houston and Dallas each had murder rates under 17.0 (16.3 and 16.4 respectively) while NYC had a murder rate of 6.6. Yessindeedy, <hawkspit> the DP is an amazing tool against murder........................... the facts speak for themselves. New York is even similar to Texas in illegal immigrants, border violence, climate, size, etc. and we are supposed to compare them? Yes, I'll quote you: Yessindeedy, <hawkspit> I keep forgetting people have a hard time figuring out other people's points around here. You guys don't get to pretend like doling death has anything to do with TX murder rates... not unless you also pretend like doling death at a few murderers in TX has an effect on the rest of the country, even up north to places previously known for violence, such as NYC, because murder rates have come way down all over the country. And, yet, you do pretend.
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Post by RFisher on Jan 6, 2011 12:56:11 GMT -6
New York is even similar to Texas in illegal immigrants, border violence, climate, size, etc. and we are supposed to compare them? Yes, I'll quote you: Yessindeedy, <hawkspit> I keep forgetting people have a hard time figuring out other people's points around here. You guys don't get to pretend like doling death has anything to do with TX murder rates... not unless you also pretend like doling death at a few murderers in TX has an effect on the rest of the country, even up north to places previously known for violence, such as NYC, because murder rates have come way down all over the country. And, yet, you do pretend. Yes it is true murder rates have come down all over the country, but certainly not as shown by Harris County. Further, comparing New York's or other northern states' murder rate to Texas is just not intellectually honest because of the Illegal Drug Trade. Please see my new thread "Southern Murder Rates."
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Post by Lauren on Jan 6, 2011 13:38:52 GMT -6
I don't give a rat's ass whether the DP alone deters. It is a PUNISHMENT. A potentially unpleasant result of your decision to murder (or in my dream world, rape as well). Deterrence has to come some other way. Before crime happens. Maybe that's an argument for public executions. I think you have a good point. I think our criminal justice system, whether it be using the DP or LWOP is to deter others, rather then punish those who have already committed a crime. I think if we move the concept of LWOP and the DP back to punishment, and not the concept of deterrence, in a sense it could effectively make people think more rationally before they commit a crime if they believe the punishment to be severe.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Jan 6, 2011 13:46:29 GMT -6
Executing murderers will probably save some future victims. Maybe only one, but that one is important. But maybe the death penalty will result in the execution of an innocent person, and that innocent person is also important. It is all besides the point because any debate centered around deterrence and potential innocent exectuees is speculative. Do murderers deserve death as punishment? Yes, I think they do. Should society give them their just deserts? You tell me.
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Post by Big Al on Jan 6, 2011 15:06:34 GMT -6
Executing murderers will probably save some future victims. Maybe only one, but that one is important. But maybe the death penalty will result in the execution of an innocent person, and that innocent person is also important. It is all besides the point because any debate centered around deterrence and potential innocent exectuees is speculative. Do murderers deserve death as punishment? Yes, I think they do. Should society give them their just deserts? You tell me. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the DP will save some future victims. Many of those on death row are truly cold blooded killers that would not think twice about killing somebody else if given the chance. Killing an innocent person is an issue. That's why I am reluctant about several cases that are on death row and several that have been executed. I have no problem executing anybody that is found guilty with DNA testing or caught with the smoking gun in hand etc..... But if there is a case where there is doubt then it should just be commuted to LWOP. Then see how much they fight. The reason? Because most don't get the DP anyways. Why even risk executing an innocent person? I just can't argue for the DP as a deterrent. I think it's just punishment and I have other reasons for supporting it. But not as a deterrent and not because it keeps them from killing again because life in prison in segregation would do the same.
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Post by RFisher on Jan 6, 2011 20:38:12 GMT -6
LWOP in segregation does not stop murderers from murdering again in prison, nor escaping to murder again, nor ordering contract hits on others while they are in prison. As such, LWOP does not hold the same deterrent effect as the DP.
Virginia executes those on DR on an average of 7 years, that is a whole lot less time to do more evil than allowing them 30 or more years to live and do further evil while on LWOP.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 23:02:30 GMT -6
I keep forgetting people have a hard time figuring out other people's points around here. You guys don't get to pretend like doling death has anything to do with TX murder rates... not unless you also pretend like doling death at a few murderers in TX has an effect on the rest of the country, even up north to places previously known for violence, such as NYC, because murder rates have come way down all over the country. And, yet, you do pretend. Yes it is true murder rates have come down all over the country, but certainly not as shown by Harris County. Further, comparing New York's or other northern states' murder rate to Texas is just not intellectually honest because of the Illegal Drug Trade. Please see my new thread "Southern Murder Rates." I'll come back for the other thread. My time is limited and I wouldn't want to just toss stuff round. My concern about this boast about Harris County is that nowhere (that I saw) does the author of that piece show the numbers for any other counties. Yet, both you and George seem to think nowhere else have the number of murders declined as much as there, supporting your theory (and the author's) that it's due to DP. Also, all other crime prevention methods (ie, more policing) would have had to stay stagnant to support that theory. Is it the case that nothing is being done there except to execute a few murderers?
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Post by RFisher on Jan 6, 2011 23:29:54 GMT -6
Yes it is true murder rates have come down all over the country, but certainly not as shown by Harris County. Further, comparing New York's or other northern states' murder rate to Texas is just not intellectually honest because of the Illegal Drug Trade. Please see my new thread "Southern Murder Rates." I'll come back for the other thread. My time is limited and I wouldn't want to just toss stuff round. My concern about this boast about Harris County is that nowhere (that I saw) does the author of that piece show the numbers for any other counties. Yet, both you and George seem to think nowhere else have the number of murders declined as much as there, supporting your theory (and the author's) that it's due to DP. Also, all other crime prevention methods (ie, more policing) would have had to stay stagnant to support that theory. Is it the case that nothing is being done there except to execute a few murderers? Sorry it has taken so long to get back with you. I have posted my reply three times, but I'm having connection problems and the replies are not being accepted for some reason. The reduction in the murders in Harris county is remarkable over the period mentioned. We are not talking about a whole state where different parts of the state will bring more numerous differences. In that country a determined effort has been made to prosecute and try murderers for the DP since the highest point of the murder rates. As to reading "Southern Murder rates," please do as you are one of those I had in mind when writing it. The same thing goes for the more recent thread I wrote on The ("We let them out anyway" argument) because unless I'm mistaken, that is a point you often have made.
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