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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2010 3:58:18 GMT -6
This may sound horrid of me, but that satire on deterrents that Rev. Agave posted got me thinking about the subject.
I know that in the days of the Tyburn Fair, public executions were basically spectator events and the crowds swarmed with pickpockets and swindlers preying upon folks who came to watch the executions that were supposed to be public displays of what happens to lawbreakers. Near as I can tell, a common reason executions became more private affairs is because of the unruliness of the crowds.
And yet, there are still some places in the world today where executions are held in public. I'll admit, I'm not as familiar with Middle Eastern and Asian modes and methods, but I do recall reading something about how the crime rate in Saudi Arabia is fairly low considering its population size. I also understand that "Chop Chop Square" in the capital still gathers large crowds on punishment days.
I'm not saying that I agree with the laws that condemn a lot of the criminals in these parts of the world. I think that a death sentence for infidelity, religious beliefs, and vice is a bit extreme. However, I think that the swiftness of justice and the public display of it might play some small part in why they enjoy a lower crime rate among their proletarian classes.
Granted, much has to do with religion. Here in the States, we don't generally have that kind of fear of deity to help punctuate justice. We don't often hear people clamoring that "God is great!" during executions in the West.
But what we do have is media. Lots and lots of media that pipe both fact and fiction into TV sets, radios, and computer devices all around the country. You can't flip around the television channels without running into at least one show about crime scene investigation or forensics at any given time. There has to be a reason why "Law and Order" alone has a half-dozen spin-offs now.
Given that public executions turned into carnivals that seemed to miss the point in years gone by, combined with the thought many criminals have that they are smart enough to get away with murder, I wonder if combining the spectacle of public execution with broadcasts of how exactly they were convicted would make a difference?
I should think that if our post-conviction system worked much faster, which would certainly keep the crimes fresh in the public mind (rather than 8-25 years after the fact), and focus was put on the evidence that convicted the culprit rather than just what the crimes themselves were, public and televised executions might have some degree of deterrent quality.
Thoughts?
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Nov 19, 2010 4:34:28 GMT -6
Even in the days of Tyburn, if you read the history, the gallows DID deter murderers somewhat. The majority of criminals who did the 'Tyburn Jig' were robbers and thieves but murder was a crime not a lot were prepared to risk their necks for. (Funny how it never deterred highway men, go figure ) Even if we did televise executions, its not that heavy watching someone drift off into sleep. (Unless we bring back hanging, drawing and quartering.) Theres no doubt tho that if we executed murderers regularly its bound to have an effect in my opinion. Saying that, I don't really believe it does truly deter and thats not why im a supporter of death. I wouldn't mind seeing the results of bringing back executions in the UK if we hung killers swift and often tho. That goes for corporal punishment too ~ suddenly those knives carried by teenage thugs don't look as appealing anymore.
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Garotte
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Post by Garotte on Nov 19, 2010 8:00:34 GMT -6
The main reason why executions were public in post-Napoleonic Europe (outside of the UK, perhaps) was to ensure the transparency of capital punishment: if executions were public, the state couldn't torture a prisoner before killing him, since it either would be shown by his wounds or he could cry it to the crowd who was watching the execution; it couldn't either put secretly to death political prisoners, unless it violated its own rules, since the process was under constant scrutiny; if the execution was badly botched, the public outcry would be great and the state would be forced to take steps to ensure that didn't happen again (Palermo, 1863, three beheadings by machine which required multiple blows). This is the main reason for which public executions were supported in many European countries even till the mid XXth century. I think however all of this can be accomplished simply by inviting independent press to every execution, and letting the condemned inmate speak for a few minutes before being put to death.
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Post by ltdc on Nov 19, 2010 10:36:04 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2010 18:26:23 GMT -6
I think however all of this can be accomplished simply by inviting independent press to every execution, and letting the condemned inmate speak for a few minutes before being put to death. Most of my studies has been in the U.K. and North America. Here in the States, there are reporters who cover executions, last meals, and last words, but it doesn't have much of an impact.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2010 19:02:26 GMT -6
Even in the days of Tyburn, if you read the history, the gallows DID deter murderers somewhat. The majority of criminals who did the 'Tyburn Jig' were robbers and thieves but murder was a crime not a lot were prepared to risk their necks for. (Funny how it never deterred highway men, go figure ) I always chalked that up to the idea that thieves and the like were more common than murderers to begin with, which holds true still today. Also given that much thievery was a crime committed for improving one's living situation while willful murder is usually not seen as something one must do for financial gain. (There are exceptions to this, but the majority of thieves don't set out with intent to kill their victims.) I agree that the manner of death should have to change for it to have a chance at being an effective deterrent in public. I favor mechanical decapitation myself, as it is bloody and unpleasant enough to get the point across to the spectators and still quick enough to satisfy those who clamor that criminals should be executed as painlessly as possible.
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Post by Matt on Nov 19, 2010 19:18:40 GMT -6
We don't need them to be public. We just need more of them, carried out more speedily.
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Post by brumsongs on Nov 19, 2010 19:26:11 GMT -6
Yeah go for it. I can think of another advantage, too. The worldwide revenues from a grateful international audience getting to see some loudmouthed, ignorant Yank get what you all deserve might put a dent in your deficit. Guest executioners might boost ratings, maybe Ice T if it's a cracker and Don Imus for a porch monkey. The lead singer from Slipknot should be carried aloft by a group of uniformed Marines to read the constitution and sing the anthem. Be a MAJOR cable hit. Hit that red button folks.
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Nov 19, 2010 19:38:50 GMT -6
We don't need them to be public. We just need more of them, carried out more speedily. Yep, as I say ot would be interesting to see the figures after a few years of swift punishment. By the way Shiva, ive read some of your stuff on your sites. Interesting stuff
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Post by Rev. Agave on Nov 19, 2010 19:47:17 GMT -6
Guest executioners might boost ratings, maybe Ice T if it's a cracker and Don Imus for a porch monkey. The lead singer from Slipknot should be carried aloft by a group of uniformed Marines to read the constitution and sing the anthem. Be a MAJOR cable hit. Hit that red button folks. Where is the rolling laughing smiley when you need him? That is awesome
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2010 2:37:28 GMT -6
We don't need them to be public. We just need more of them, carried out more speedily. I agree that we need more of them done in a timely manner. Maybe it's the film-maker in me that leans toward making them public. It just often seems that there is some truth in the mentality of "it's not real unless you see it". I'm inclined to believe that in the world of camera phones and YouTube, just reading/hearing about it doesn't quite cut it. During Saddam Hussein's execution I had several people who knew of my interests calling or e-mailing me to "find confirmation" that it had in fact taken place. They didn't trust the news footage that just showed him being noosed but cut before the drop. It didn't take me very long to find the uncut video, and it seemed to be what was needed to dispel last-minute rescue conspiracy theories. A lot of these people had never actually seen a hanging before, and it did shock them in the way that I'd like to see potential criminals feel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2010 2:42:03 GMT -6
By the way Shiva, ive read some of your stuff on your sites. Interesting stuff Thank you.
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Post by Matt on Nov 20, 2010 13:52:45 GMT -6
I agree that we need more of them done in a timely manner. Maybe it's the film-maker in me that leans toward making them public. It just often seems that there is some truth in the mentality of "it's not real unless you see it". I'm inclined to believe that in the world of camera phones and YouTube, just reading/hearing about it doesn't quite cut it. During Saddam Hussein's execution I had several people who knew of my interests calling or e-mailing me to "find confirmation" that it had in fact taken place. They didn't trust the news footage that just showed him being noosed but cut before the drop. It didn't take me very long to find the uncut video, and it seemed to be what was needed to dispel last-minute rescue conspiracy theories. A lot of these people had never actually seen a hanging before, and it did shock them in the way that I'd like to see potential criminals feel. I'm not opposed to the idea of setting an example to the public, it's just that I doubt the public's (at least the American public) ability to take in the desired "lesson". Public executions in this day and age would quickly degenerate into spectacle, and it would only be a matter of time before some Hollywood clown would come along and try to make a reality show out of it. The Final Days of the Condemned or somesuch. We've completely lost the plot in America when it comes to capital punishment. Making it better would involve taking a few key steps. Making executions public is like #89 on the list.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Nov 20, 2010 14:29:36 GMT -6
I agree that we need more of them done in a timely manner. Maybe it's the film-maker in me that leans toward making them public. It just often seems that there is some truth in the mentality of "it's not real unless you see it". I'm inclined to believe that in the world of camera phones and YouTube, just reading/hearing about it doesn't quite cut it. During Saddam Hussein's execution I had several people who knew of my interests calling or e-mailing me to "find confirmation" that it had in fact taken place. They didn't trust the news footage that just showed him being noosed but cut before the drop. It didn't take me very long to find the uncut video, and it seemed to be what was needed to dispel last-minute rescue conspiracy theories. A lot of these people had never actually seen a hanging before, and it did shock them in the way that I'd like to see potential criminals feel. I'm not opposed to the idea of setting an example to the public, it's just that I doubt the public's (at least the American public) ability to take in the desired "lesson". Public executions in this day and age would quickly degenerate into spectacle, and it would only be a matter of time before some Hollywood clown would come along and try to make a reality show out of it. The Final Days of the Condemned or somesuch. I think public executions have always had a carnival atmosphere. So I don't think the idea of an execution turning into an entertaining spectacle is something that would be unique to the modern American zeitgeist. Of course the mediums have changed thanks to technological advances, but public executions wherever they have taken place have always been a popular outlet for voyeurism. Personally, I have no problem with that. I'd love sit down with some popcorn to watch DR offenders get toasted on live TV. Maybe they could sell foam pitchforks similar to those tomahawks that you see at Atlanta Braves games?
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Nov 20, 2010 14:43:41 GMT -6
Maybe they could sell foam pitchforks similar to those tomahawks that you see at Atlanta Braves games? In later times they sold wooden splints soaked with the blood of the executed to the public. They were regarded as lucky charms or something. Wouldn't that be something for you?
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Post by Kay on Nov 20, 2010 15:18:51 GMT -6
Don't death row inmates already garner enough undeserved attention? Surely, making executions public, would increase symapthy for the condemned.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Nov 20, 2010 15:31:34 GMT -6
Don't death row inmates already garner enough undeserved attention? Surely, making executions public, would increase sympathy for the condemned. Only among people who already sympathize with them. By and large, I think using their suffering as a source of entertainment would help further cheapen and dehumanize them in the eyes of the public. Plus the kids would love it, which would work to foster a generations of stronger pros who are completely devoid of compassion and empathy for society's worst offenders.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2010 16:11:57 GMT -6
I'm not opposed to the idea of setting an example to the public, it's just that I doubt the public's (at least the American public) ability to take in the desired "lesson". Public executions in this day and age would quickly degenerate into spectacle, and it would only be a matter of time before some Hollywood clown would come along and try to make a reality show out of it. The Final Days of the Condemned or somesuch. We've completely lost the plot in America when it comes to capital punishment. Making it better would involve taking a few key steps. Making executions public is like #89 on the list. While I'm sure it would be a spectacle for some, just as it was in the past even before executions in the Roman arena, I don't think the point would be so easily missed. We already have shows about death row inmates, prison reality shows, etc... Some even do a decent job of illustrating how terrible life in prison can be in order to scare viewers into staying on the right side of the law. Others let the prisoners ramble on forever about how unfair it is that they are treated so poorly while incarcerated, thus garnering sympathy from folks who think that murderers should be entitled to air conditioning, conjugal visits, and cable television. It would be impossible to make executions public without running the risk of television executives capitalizing on it and the criminals themselves using it to milk as much public sympathy as possible. However, given that the executions would have to take place in a somewhat controlled environment, there is opportunity to make sure that everyone watching knows exactly why it is being done (the crimes, the evidence that disproves the criminal's cry of innocence, etc...). I didn't see too many people shedding tears over Timothy McVeigh while the media peppered the news reports with photos of dead babies courtesy of his handiwork. I wish they'd do that more often on execution days, to remind viewers exactly why the prisoner is being put to death.
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Post by Woody on Nov 23, 2010 13:22:04 GMT -6
Here in the States, there are reporters who cover executions, last meals, and last words, but it doesn't have much of an impact. Don't say that. Some morons get turned on by it.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Nov 23, 2010 14:09:08 GMT -6
Here in the States, there are reporters who cover executions, last meals, and last words, but it doesn't have much of an impact. Don't say that. Some morons get turned on by it. What do you mean by "turned on?" I love reading about that shyt, but it doesn't make my dick hard. Indeed, if you did an objective study, I would bet that way more anti-dp women get excited by death row titillations than do pros.
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Nov 23, 2010 14:12:26 GMT -6
Public executions are a thing of the past and they are never going to be brought back. Why people go on and on about impossibilities beats me.
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Garotte
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Post by Garotte on Nov 24, 2010 7:02:48 GMT -6
Mike5, bringing back hanging in counties is impossible (unless the current status quo completely degenerates), but public executions aren't... it's enough that a judge allows a camera to enter an execution chamber and the state doesn't oppose it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 18:11:39 GMT -6
Public executions are a thing of the past and they are never going to be brought back. Why people go on and on about impossibilities beats me. They aren't obsolete around the world entire. Besides, the States have been known to change their minds about things. Prohibition comes readily to mind here. So does that brief period that we did away with capital punishment altogether.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 18:18:59 GMT -6
Indeed, if you did an objective study, I would bet that way more anti-dp women get excited by death row titillations than do pros. I wouldn't be surprised. The minute something becomes taboo or forbidden in one's mind, it becomes "naughty". Of course, doing an objective study would be difficult as people aren't likely to admit to any such behavior.
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Post by arizonavet on Dec 16, 2010 14:33:32 GMT -6
This may sound horrid of me, but that satire on deterrents that Rev. Agave posted got me thinking about the subject. I know that in the days of the Tyburn Fair, public executions were basically spectator events and the crowds swarmed with pickpockets and swindlers preying upon folks who came to watch the executions that were supposed to be public displays of what happens to lawbreakers. Near as I can tell, a common reason executions became more private affairs is because of the unruliness of the crowds. And yet, there are still some places in the world today where executions are held in public. I'll admit, I'm not as familiar with Middle Eastern and Asian modes and methods, but I do recall reading something about how the crime rate in Saudi Arabia is fairly low considering its population size. I also understand that "Chop Chop Square" in the capital still gathers large crowds on punishment days. I'm not saying that I agree with the laws that condemn a lot of the criminals in these parts of the world. I think that a death sentence for infidelity, religious beliefs, and vice is a bit extreme. However, I think that the swiftness of justice and the public display of it might play some small part in why they enjoy a lower crime rate among their proletarian classes. Granted, much has to do with religion. Here in the States, we don't generally have that kind of fear of deity to help punctuate justice. We don't often hear people clamoring that "God is great!" during executions in the West. But what we do have is media. Lots and lots of media that pipe both fact and fiction into TV sets, radios, and computer devices all around the country. You can't flip around the television channels without running into at least one show about crime scene investigation or forensics at any given time. There has to be a reason why "Law and Order" alone has a half-dozen spin-offs now. Given that public executions turned into carnivals that seemed to miss the point in years gone by, combined with the thought many criminals have that they are smart enough to get away with murder, I wonder if combining the spectacle of public execution with broadcasts of how exactly they were convicted would make a difference? I should think that if our post-conviction system worked much faster, which would certainly keep the crimes fresh in the public mind (rather than 8-25 years after the fact), and focus was put on the evidence that convicted the culprit rather than just what the crimes themselves were, public and televised executions might have some degree of deterrent quality. Thoughts? Mmmmmm, "middle east executions".... Like the lady sentenced to stoning for committing adultry"? The whole WORLD jumped into the act. BAD IDEA Shiv! The very first public execution would be our last execution...possibly for EVER.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2010 14:58:47 GMT -6
Ah. So nice to see you again, Arizonavet. How've you been?
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Post by arizonavet on Dec 17, 2010 10:11:50 GMT -6
Ah. So nice to see you again, Arizonavet. How've you been? Thanks for the warm welcome Wonder Woman. I'm just "grand"... Thought about you & all the folks on this board, many times...it's almost a "life style". Agave's new avitar is a real "hoot"....I expected nothing less. I'm living in the land of conservatism & exectuions again....working, thank God & Texas. Arizonavet
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Post by arizonavet on Dec 17, 2010 10:18:24 GMT -6
Don't death row inmates already garner enough undeserved attention? Surely, making executions public, would increase symapthy for the condemned. Here, here, (pounding fist on table)....absolutly true!! Our first public execution, would be our last one! Anti's KNOW this fact...it seems to me to be the main reason they "suggest" it every now & then. See there Kay, we don't always disagree....hope you've been well. Arizonavet
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2010 15:41:50 GMT -6
[/quote]Mmmmmm, "middle east executions"....
Like the lady sentenced to stoning for committing adultry"?
The whole WORLD jumped into the act.
BAD IDEA Shiv!
The very first public execution would be our last execution...possibly for EVER.[/quote]
Last time I checked, adultery wasn't a capital offense here in the States.
However, I do see your point.
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Post by arizonavet on Dec 20, 2010 9:21:27 GMT -6
Mmmmmm, "middle east executions".... Like the lady sentenced to stoning for committing adultry"? The whole WORLD jumped into the act. BAD IDEA Shiv! The very first public execution would be our last execution...possibly for EVER.[/quote] Last time I checked, adultery wasn't a capital offense here in the States. However, I do see your point. [/quote] OK... I wasn't referring to the specific crime...just the really bad idea of public executions... Not bad because of moral wrongness, hell, I might attend,....but I never was much of a idealist, or dreamer, "what-if" person... sort of the pragmatic type
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