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Post by Big Al on Apr 29, 2010 21:18:58 GMT -6
I just can't understand why revenge is such a rejected reason for the DP.
Personally, if somebody where to kill one of my kids I would want them dead. Period. I could care less about their lives or their families or whatever. I would want them DEAD. OK I might feel sorry for their families but that won't change my mind.
That is my number one reason for being a pro. If I want that then I must believe in that for whoever else is in that position.
All the other reasons for the DP are fine and dandy. Most of them aren't even true or even matter. To me at least.
The only one that really matters is that if somebody killed somebody in my family I would want them dead. I would kill them myself if given the chance. I would have absolutely no problem with that.
So what's the big deal and why does that make me so bad to anti DP people?
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Post by Californian on Apr 29, 2010 21:49:19 GMT -6
I think there's some element of revenge in the DP and I embrace it.
Remember what comedian Ron White says: "Hey, I'm from Texas. If you kill somebody here, we just might kill you back."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2010 22:00:40 GMT -6
Revenge is an essential part of punishment. The traditional reason for the legal process was to ensure the right person was copping it, and the punishment was in proportion to the crime committed. However it is in the last century or so when people have tried to rehabilitate offenders.
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Post by Big Al on Apr 29, 2010 22:08:48 GMT -6
I think there's some element of revenge in the DP and I embrace it. Remember what comedian Ron White says: "Hey, I'm from Texas. If you kill somebody here, we just might kill you back." {{{{{hugs}}}}}} back to you Cali. Or however they demonstrate that in cyber world. ;D As far as I am concerned, it is the basis of why there would be a death penalty. Really, what's the other argument? Deterrence? Yeah right. Keeping them from killing again? Sure but LWOP does that. At least innocents. They might send the message to kill from jail but that's somebody else doing the killing. Even though a capital crime. They might kill a prison officer although that's because they weren't doing their job like it should be done. Meaning that they should never be even close to given the chance to do that. So what's left? The thing is.... why is it wrong? I just don't get it.
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Post by ltdc on Apr 29, 2010 22:12:39 GMT -6
I think there's some element of revenge in the DP and I embrace it. Remember what comedian Ron White says: "Hey, I'm from Texas. If you kill somebody here, we just might kill you back." The thing is.... why is it wrong? I just don't get it. it's not wrong, it's simply an emotion but anti's have soooo little rational argument that they'll take anything that turns it all around and points to you instead of the murderer.
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Post by Big Al on Apr 29, 2010 22:13:13 GMT -6
Revenge is an essential part of punishment. The traditional reason for the legal process was to ensure the right person was copping it, and the punishment was in proportion to the crime committed. However it is in the last century or so when people have tried to rehabilitate offenders. Rehabilitation is for petty offenses. There is no rehabilitation for murder. Sure, if a 16 year old steals a car or whatever then send him to boot camp or jail and he might hate it so much that he changes. Murder is different. It's definite and permanent. There is no sorry or going back. Murderers will only find it easier the second time. They need to be disposed of the first time they do it.
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Post by Stormyweather on Apr 29, 2010 22:15:57 GMT -6
Another way of putting it, is why do some think it so wrong to be angry at murderers? Especially for the victims' families.
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Apr 29, 2010 22:32:04 GMT -6
I think there's some element of revenge in the DP and I embrace it. Remember what comedian Ron White says: "Hey, I'm from Texas. If you kill somebody here, we just might kill you back." {{{{{hugs}}}}}} back to you Cali. Or however they demonstrate that in cyber world. As far as I am concerned, it is the basis of why there would be a death penalty. Really, what's the other argument? Deterrence? Yeah right. Keeping them from killing again? Sure but LWOP does that. At least innocents. They might send the message to kill from jail but that's somebody else doing the killing. Even though a capital crime. They might kill a prison officer although that's because they weren't doing their job like it should be done. Meaning that they should never be even close to given the chance to do that. So what's left? The thing is.... why is it wrong? I just don't get it. The person who hires or orders someone to kill is more culpable because but for him, it would have never been set in motion and he was the one to benefit from it. And there are innocents in prison. Some kid in the joint for drug possession doesn't deserve to be murdered. The correctional officer doesn't deserve to be murdered. The teacher or librarian in prison doesn't deserve to be murdered, etc. Also, for each inmate put to death, 3 to 18 murders are prevented. And don't give me this it's okay to kill a prison officer because he wasn't doing his job, crap. Jeesh! Where the hell do some of you get these looney ideas. They like to call it revenge because they think it gives it a negative connotation. Not to me. What I find repulsive is this phony meme that they try to force down people's throats that forgiveness is required. Not in my religion. And frankly, I think there is something wrong with people who would forgive the murderer or their love ones. And you can stick restorative justice where the sun can't shine, too. Who benefits from restorative justice? The murderer, that's who. Not the victim. All this forgiveness crap and restorative justice is meant to keep the status quo. Can't have people upset and seeking justice in that it might upset the balance of things and it would be bad for those in power. Screw 'em.
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Post by Big Al on Apr 29, 2010 23:00:19 GMT -6
{{{{{hugs}}}}}} back to you Cali. Or however they demonstrate that in cyber world. As far as I am concerned, it is the basis of why there would be a death penalty. Really, what's the other argument? Deterrence? Yeah right. Keeping them from killing again? Sure but LWOP does that. At least innocents. They might send the message to kill from jail but that's somebody else doing the killing. Even though a capital crime. They might kill a prison officer although that's because they weren't doing their job like it should be done. Meaning that they should never be even close to given the chance to do that. So what's left? The thing is.... why is it wrong? I just don't get it. The person who hires or orders someone to kill is more culpable because but for him, it would have never been set in motion and he was the one to benefit from it. And there are innocents in prison. Some kid in the joint for drug possession doesn't deserve to be murdered. The correctional officer doesn't deserve to be murdered. The teacher or librarian in prison doesn't deserve to be murdered, etc. Also, for each inmate put to death, 3 to 18 murders are prevented. And don't give me this it's okay to kill a prison officer because he wasn't doing his job, crap. Jeesh! Where the hell do some of you get these looney ideas. They like to call it revenge because they think it gives it a negative connotation. Not to me. What I find repulsive is this phony meme that they try to force down people's throats that forgiveness is required. Not in my religion. And frankly, I think there is something wrong with people who would forgive the murderer or their love ones. And you can stick restorative justice where the sun can't shine, too. Who benefits from restorative justice? The murderer, that's who. Not the victim. All this forgiveness crap and restorative justice is meant to keep the status quo. Can't have people upset and seeking justice in that it might upset the balance of things and it would be bad for those in power. Screw 'em. Guess it was a flyby............ I have never joined in on the "crap on Mike" threads but if any of the "you" that you mentioned were directed towards me then you are barking up the equivocal tree. Try to understand the post and respond without spouting you, you, you are wrong.
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Apr 30, 2010 0:07:22 GMT -6
I don't give a *crap* what you join in. Feel free to act like an a-hole. No reflection on me.
YOU said this: They might kill a prison officer although that's because they weren't doing their job like it should be done. Meaning that they should never be even close to given the chance to do that.
That is ignorant and offensive.
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Post by Big Al on Apr 30, 2010 1:05:32 GMT -6
Mike. The "they" in that statement refers to the convicts. "They" should never be given the chance to do any harm to the officers.
You are ignorant and offensive.
Sorry if it sounded different.
I have been a member for some time and posted quite a bit. It wouldn't be totally out of hand if you hadn't noticed that I was pro DP and have stated my opinion on that many times as I have also stated my respect for corrections officers.
Again. Just step back and give it a forceful tug. It should come out. If not then try to call 911 and at least they will show up to your house and if there is no answer they will come in and find you like that and maybe help your situation.
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Post by Stormyweather on Apr 30, 2010 7:48:23 GMT -6
I'm going to help Mike5. Mikey he's not using those arguments he is stating some of the arguments from certain people who oppose the death penalty.
Some antis have mentioned the possibility of executing innocents, LWOP keeps them from killing, if they order a killing from jail someone else is doing it, if inmates kill an officer it's because the officer wasn't doing his or her job.
Does that help you any?
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Apr 30, 2010 8:15:28 GMT -6
I just can't understand why revenge is such a rejected reason for the DP. Personally, if somebody where to kill one of my kids I would want them dead. Period. I could care less about their lives or their families or whatever. I would want them DEAD. OK I might feel sorry for their families but that won't change my mind. That is my number one reason for being a pro. If I want that then I must believe in that for whoever else is in that position. I might want the killer of my potential kid dead as well and still I'm Anti. Why? Because if it mattered what I wanted in this situation, the guy might not get a trial (and especially not a fair one) and my absolute opposition to torture might diminish fastly if I believed this guy to be guilty. Finally I wouldn't want him to die after a couple of years and appeals; maybe I'd want to do the job myself as soon as possible!? But all this shouldn't matter, I believe.
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Apr 30, 2010 9:08:19 GMT -6
Mike. The "they" in that statement refers to the convicts. "They" should never be given the chance to do any harm to the officers. Again. Just step back and give it a forceful tug. It should come out. If not then try to call 911 and at least they will show up to your house and if there is no answer they will come in and find you like that and maybe help your situation. It sounded offensive because it is offensive. You step back and read what YOU wrote. YOU said this: They might kill a prison officer although that's because they weren't doing their job like it should be done. Meaning that they should never be even close to given the chance to do that.they = prison officer their = prison officer I read exactly what you wrote how you wrote it. Open up the yellow pages and look up under "remedial english language instruction" or "english as a second language" and give them a call and maybe they can help you. But I doubt it.
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Post by whitediamonds on Apr 30, 2010 10:09:54 GMT -6
I'm going to help Mike5. Mikey he's not using those arguments he is stating some of the arguments from certain people who oppose the death penalty. Some antis have mentioned the possibility of executing innocents, LWOP keeps them from killing, if they order a killing from jail someone else is doing it, if inmates kill an officer it's because the officer wasn't doing his or her job. Does that help you any? If an inmate kills a officer, it's because the officer was not doing his job. Ok, with that reasoning? Then a victim of the murderer on the outside was in the wrong place at the wrong time too.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 30, 2010 11:35:41 GMT -6
If you are going to strap a man down and methodically kill him, it damn well better be about revenge. I'm Ok with it, as I don't see much of a difference between revenge and retribution. I am certainly not going to pretend that murderers don't *deleted* me off big time. I hate'em through and through.
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Post by Stormyweather on Apr 30, 2010 11:56:47 GMT -6
I'm going to help Mike5. Mikey he's not using those arguments he is stating some of the arguments from certain people who oppose the death penalty. Some antis have mentioned the possibility of executing innocents, LWOP keeps them from killing, if they order a killing from jail someone else is doing it, if inmates kill an officer it's because the officer wasn't doing his or her job. Does that help you any? If an inmate kills a officer, it's because the officer was not doing his job. Ok, with that reasoning? Then a victim of the murderer on the outside was in the wrong place at the wrong time too. And I'm sure there are some who believe in that theory too. Don't you know that there really nice people who made a "mistake."
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Post by lawrence on Apr 30, 2010 16:23:15 GMT -6
I would say that must murder victims are in the wrong place at the wrong time , who wouldn't say that. Mike5, dude it's Friday. Chill matey.
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Post by Angelique on Apr 30, 2010 16:36:49 GMT -6
I also don't see any problem with revenge. In fact, I will too kill someone with my own two hands if they should try to harm my loved ones.
I have wished many times before that I was stronger and bigger.
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Post by whitediamonds on Apr 30, 2010 17:28:40 GMT -6
I would say that must murder victims are in the wrong place at the wrong time , who wouldn't say that. Mike5, dude it's Friday. Chill matey. Humm at home, driving in car, shopping for groc, working, walking home, yeh guess most were in wrong place
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Post by Stormyweather on May 1, 2010 0:15:13 GMT -6
I would say that must murder victims are in the wrong place at the wrong time , who wouldn't say that. Mike5, dude it's Friday. Chill matey. Yes, especially if they're in their home minding their own business. If someone breaks into their home they should have sense enough not to be there.
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Post by justicex84 on May 1, 2010 0:44:48 GMT -6
I just can't understand why revenge is such a rejected reason for the DP. Personally, if somebody where to kill one of my kids I would want them dead. Period. I could care less about their lives or their families or whatever. I would want them DEAD. OK I might feel sorry for their families but that won't change my mind. That is my number one reason for being a pro. If I want that then I must believe in that for whoever else is in that position. All the other reasons for the DP are fine and dandy. Most of them aren't even true or even matter. To me at least. The only one that really matters is that if somebody killed somebody in my family I would want them dead. I would kill them myself if given the chance. I would have absolutely no problem with that. So what's the big deal and why does that make me so bad to anti DP people? “I don’t think you should support the death penalty to seek revenge. I don’t think that’s right. I think the reason to support the death penalty is because it saves other people’s lives.” George Walker Bush
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on May 1, 2010 1:29:09 GMT -6
“I don’t think you should support the death penalty to seek revenge. I don’t think that’s right. I think the reason to support the death penalty is because it saves other people’s lives.” George Walker Bush That's actually the weakest reason as there's no evidence for that.
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Post by Donnie on May 1, 2010 5:45:23 GMT -6
That's actually the weakest reason as there's no evidence for that. It isn't a reason, deterrance is a beneficial side effect that scientific research has confirmed.
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on May 1, 2010 6:28:14 GMT -6
Then please post the source.
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Post by ltdc on May 1, 2010 11:31:29 GMT -6
I would say that must murder victims are in the wrong place at the wrong time , who wouldn't say that. Mike5, dude it's Friday. Chill matey. If someone breaks into their home they should have sense enough not to be there. some states actually used to require exactly that, leave your home, some may still do. it's the reason behind the castle doctrine that is going aross the country
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on May 1, 2010 13:39:10 GMT -6
If someone breaks into their home they should have sense enough not to be there. some states actually used to require exactly that, leave your home, some may still do. it's the reason behind the castle doctrine that is going aross the country I believe the law in the UK requires them to do that. But, I get tired of ignorant people who automatically assume that if a LEO is killed in the LOD, that they did something wrong or that because they chose to go into LE, it is in someway less of a crime.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2010 18:08:10 GMT -6
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Post by whitediamonds on May 1, 2010 23:42:15 GMT -6
I would say that must murder victims are in the wrong place at the wrong time , who wouldn't say that. Mike5, dude it's Friday. Chill matey. Yes, especially if they're in their home minding their own business. If someone breaks into their home they should have sense enough not to be there. How stupid of me, I actually stay'd home this evening, I have to quite asking for trouble.
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Post by Big Al on May 2, 2010 0:22:42 GMT -6
Yes, especially if they're in their home minding their own business. If someone breaks into their home they should have sense enough not to be there. How stupid of me, I actually stay'd home this evening, I have to quite asking for trouble. Buy a gun and use it if the right situation arrises.
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