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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 25, 2010 16:33:25 GMT -6
Here is an idea I'd like to run by you folks. Do you think it would be acceptable to allow DR inmates to volunteer for dangerous medical experiments in exchange for a LWOP parole sentence? For example, let's say a POS is given death. Instead of executing him, we could inject him with AIDS and subject him to experimental treatments. If he dies, so what. Of course, it would all be on a voluntary basis. If a POS would prefer execution, he would not be forced to participate. But if he wanted to give back to society or to prolong his own life, we could commute his sentence provided he volunteered for medical testing that would be unethical to perform on humans or animals. I mean, exactly how much radiation can a human body take? What is the best way to combat AIDS or other deadly viruses? How do viruses mutate in the human body under various conditions? Murderers could help us answer those questions, thus saving lives. Should we allow it?
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Apr 25, 2010 16:34:54 GMT -6
No. Medical ethics would probably forbid it.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 25, 2010 16:38:20 GMT -6
No. Medical ethics would probably forbid it. But perhaps we could alter those ethics. Indeed, perhaps DR inmates could be classified as already dead. Zombies, if you will.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 25, 2010 16:46:14 GMT -6
No. Medical ethics would probably forbid it. Also, keep in mind that these would all be volunteers. No inmate would be forced to participate.
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Post by halflife1052 on Apr 25, 2010 17:11:10 GMT -6
Here is an idea I'd like to run by you folks. Do you think it would be acceptable to allow DR inmates to volunteer for dangerous medical experiments in exchange for a LWOP parole sentence? For example, let's say a POS is given death. Instead of executing him, we could inject him with AIDS and subject him to experimental treatments. If he dies, so what. Of course, it would all be on a voluntary basis. If a POS would prefer execution, he would not be forced to participate. But if he wanted to give back to society or to prolong his own life, we could commute his sentence provided he volunteered for medical testing that would be unethical to perform on humans or animals. I mean, exactly how much radiation can a human body take? What is the best way to combat AIDS or other deadly viruses? How do viruses mutate in the human body under various conditions? Murderers could help us answer those questions, thus saving lives. Should we allow it? Ethically speaking, wouldn't this be akin to what the Nazis did? As to your second question, the LD-50/30 is about 275R. (lethal dose for 50% of the population within 30 days without medical treatment) (R=REM=Radiation Equivalent Man)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 17:13:32 GMT -6
What you are suggesting is disgusting. The chinese already use their death row population as an organ bank and are subject to forced organ donation and many on Chinese Death row are their for crimes that wouldn't even get a life sentence elsewhere.
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mike5
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Post by mike5 on Apr 25, 2010 17:19:45 GMT -6
Nobody is fooled by your fake outrage - so, can it!
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Apr 25, 2010 17:24:16 GMT -6
Still not sure. Just one thing I do not think i can wrap my mind around. Sorry.
But as far as creams and skin stuff, I dont think that is a problem.
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Post by Californian on Apr 25, 2010 17:31:35 GMT -6
But if he wanted to give back to society or to prolong his own life, we could commute his sentence provided he volunteered for medical testing that would be unethical to perform on humans or animals. I mean, exactly how much radiation can a human body take? What is the best way to combat AIDS or other deadly viruses? How do viruses mutate in the human body under various conditions? Murderers could help us answer those questions, thus saving lives. Should we allow it? It would be seen, correctly, as coercion, and no physician or any other ethical researcher would participate. And the lethal doses of ionizing radiation are well-known. We created about 400,000 "volunteers" in August, 1945. And that said, it's just a bit too "Dr. Mengele" for me.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 25, 2010 17:32:53 GMT -6
Here is an idea I'd like to run by you folks. Do you think it would be acceptable to allow DR inmates to volunteer for dangerous medical experiments in exchange for a LWOP parole sentence? For example, let's say a POS is given death. Instead of executing him, we could inject him with AIDS and subject him to experimental treatments. If he dies, so what. Of course, it would all be on a voluntary basis. If a POS would prefer execution, he would not be forced to participate. But if he wanted to give back to society or to prolong his own life, we could commute his sentence provided he volunteered for medical testing that would be unethical to perform on humans or animals. I mean, exactly how much radiation can a human body take? What is the best way to combat AIDS or other deadly viruses? How do viruses mutate in the human body under various conditions? Murderers could help us answer those questions, thus saving lives. Should we allow it? Ethically speaking, wouldn't this be akin to what the Nazis did? Only if you equate ethnic genocide with executing convicted murderers. And once again, under my proposal, the convicted inmate would be free not to participate and be executed instead.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 25, 2010 17:55:52 GMT -6
and many on Chinese Death row are their for crimes that wouldn't even get a life sentence elsewhere. How does that have anything whatsoever to do with my proposal to convicted murderers on American Death Rows?
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Post by halflife1052 on Apr 25, 2010 18:03:07 GMT -6
But if he wanted to give back to society or to prolong his own life, we could commute his sentence provided he volunteered for medical testing that would be unethical to perform on humans or animals. I mean, exactly how much radiation can a human body take? What is the best way to combat AIDS or other deadly viruses? How do viruses mutate in the human body under various conditions? Murderers could help us answer those questions, thus saving lives. Should we allow it? It would be seen, correctly, as coercion, and no physician or any other ethical researcher would participate. And the lethal doses of ionizing radiation are well-known. We created about 400,000 "volunteers" in August, 1945. And that said, it's just a bit too "Dr. Mengele" for me. We also went on to re-affirm those numbers during the Chernobyl accident.
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Post by Californian on Apr 25, 2010 18:12:23 GMT -6
We also went on to re-affirm those numbers during the Chernobyl accident. The reactor meltdown at Chernobyl released much more radiation than the atomic bombs, so we agree. The Chernobyl area is uninhabitable for thousands of years.
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Post by Stormyweather on Apr 25, 2010 18:15:10 GMT -6
No I would not be for it. For one thing the doctor or scientist would have to be in the same cell with the inmate. What if the inmate got ahold of the needle and injected the doctor.
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Post by Stormyweather on Apr 25, 2010 18:19:15 GMT -6
Nobody is fooled by your fake outrage - so, can it! And just how do you know it's fake?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 20:34:34 GMT -6
and many on Chinese Death row are their for crimes that wouldn't even get a life sentence elsewhere. How does that have anything whatsoever to do with my proposal to convicted murderers on American Death Rows? You would considered just as disgusting as them. You would never get consent from ethics board. You could also consider it cruel and unusual punishment. You could also argue that consent from inmates isn't under duress as well.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 25, 2010 20:50:32 GMT -6
How does that have anything whatsoever to do with my proposal to convicted murderers on American Death Rows? You would considered just as disgusting as them. You would never get consent from ethics board. You could also consider it cruel and unusual punishment. You could also argue that consent from inmates isn't under duress as well. First, I don't consider the Chinese disgusting. If we are going to kill a POS anyway, it makes sense to get all the benefit we can by harvesting their organs so others can live. Second, I'm not that concerned about any medical ethics board. My proposal is a hypothetical, and I am well aware that it will not soon be adopted into practice. I am just suggesting that maybe it should be. Third, my proposal would not put DR inmates in any worse of a position than they are already in. It would simply give them an option. Fourth, the government puts duress on criminals all the time. You might as well say that every capital murderer who pleads guilty in exchange for a life sentence does so under duress.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 21:03:28 GMT -6
It would be a good idea eric,There is no great loss if they drop dead,they are dead men walking already,there would have to be a waver signed before any tests are conducted,anyway! if they are truly sorry for what they did it could be their way of giving back to society.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 21:14:08 GMT -6
In a practical sense these type of people would be poor canditates anyway.
Medical experiments often focus on particular ages, genders and medical backgrounds and histories. Additionally researchers requires suspects to be reliable as well which by definition by death row inmates would not be reliable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 21:15:02 GMT -6
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Post by Grey on Apr 25, 2010 23:11:06 GMT -6
Fourth, the government puts duress on criminals all the time. You might as well say that every capital murderer who pleads guilty in exchange for a life sentence does so under duress. They are being punished for what they did when duress wasn't a factor. The sentencing stage isn't the government putting duress on the inmate--it's a method to save the cost of a trial and the inmate saving their life. I don't see the duress by the government. In fact, if anyone is responsible for duress in capital punishment cases, its the inmate who put themself in said situation. And your proposal would never meet ethical standards. Besides who in there right mind would volunteer for what you suggested?They are murderers--they took lives, what makes you think they would volunteer their bodies to save others?
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 26, 2010 0:10:48 GMT -6
Fourth, the government puts duress on criminals all the time. You might as well say that every capital murderer who pleads guilty in exchange for a life sentence does so under duress. They are being punished for what they did when duress wasn't a factor. The sentencing stage isn't the government putting duress on the inmate--it's a method to save the cost of a trial and the inmate saving their life. I don't see the duress by the government. In fact, if anyone is responsible for duress in capital punishment cases, its the inmate who put themself in said situation. Cyclone said it is duress to give an inmate a chance to get off of DR by participating in medical studies. If that is indeed duress, then it seems it would also be duress to tell an accused murder that the state will pursue death if he does not plead guilty. Personally, I prefer the word "incentive" (as opposed to"duress"), but whatever. On any account, my proposal would not put any inmate in any worse off a position than he is already in. If he does not want to participate, he does not have to and his death sentence will remain.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 26, 2010 0:18:01 GMT -6
Fourth, the government puts duress on criminals all the time. You might as well say that every capital murderer who pleads guilty in exchange for a life sentence does so under duress. what makes you think they would volunteer their bodies to save others? Because under my propsal they would get off Death Row. I'm sure at least some would take me up on that offer.
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Post by The Tipsy Broker on Apr 26, 2010 1:27:27 GMT -6
This idea is going to make anyone visiting from the 'other' board very upset and probably a smidgen of anger. And for that alone I agree with this fine idea
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2010 1:40:53 GMT -6
what makes you think they would volunteer their bodies to save others? Because under my propsal they would get off Death Row. I'm sure at least some would take me up on that offer. Erick needs to realise that the reason why they are on death row is because people want them offed, not subject to medical experiments and kept alive for many many years.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Apr 26, 2010 2:02:49 GMT -6
Because under my propsal they would get off Death Row. I'm sure at least some would take me up on that offer. Erick needs to realise that the reason why they are on death row is because people want them offed, not subject to medical experiments and kept alive for many many years. If keeping them alive to conduct medical experiments on them would help save other peoples' lives in a tangible way, many people might think differently. I am not a scientist by any means, but it seems that having disposable live humans to experiment on could be beneficial. There are just so many things we could do to them that we could not do to anyone else. Take the human brain for example. It's fascinating what we learn from studying the organ. Now imagine what we could learn from a live test subject such as Scott Peterson. We could remove parts of the brain and study what happens. We could even try to do the first total brain transplant. There is just so many possibilities if we could work on live human subjects without caring about their health.
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Post by Kay on Apr 26, 2010 5:29:35 GMT -6
They have been given death, although many linger for decades. By way of that sentence, they receive a great deal of attention. Your proposal would result in them receiving even more attention, once again diminishing the real victims.
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Apr 26, 2010 5:59:41 GMT -6
I think this proposal is really disgusting. Those people have committed a crime and have to face the consequences for it - that's one thing. Lowering them to medical-research-objects is another. Although some pros like to think differently to doge the moral conflict, also murderers are people and not objects. If murderers were objects you could do away with the DP in a minute since it wouldn't have any meaning at all. Objectifying murderers also diminishes their guilt. An object cannot be guilty of anything, it simply is as it is.
Also if you objectify one group of people the door is already open for others. Some people will use great rhetorics to include other people as well. The seed for the most gruesome atrocities is planted with this logic, whether you like it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2010 7:04:26 GMT -6
Well a major criminal was beaten to death in prison. His brain has been donated to science. I don't know what the outcome or the use of that, seeing he has been smashed across the back of the head. Erick needs to realise that the reason why they are on death row is because people want them offed, not subject to medical experiments and kept alive for many many years. If keeping them alive to conduct medical experiments on them would help save other peoples' lives in a tangible way, many people might think differently. I am not a scientist by any means, but it seems that having disposable live humans to experiment on could be beneficial. There are just so many things we could do to them that we could not do to anyone else. Take the human brain for example. It's fascinating what we learn from studying the organ. Now imagine what we could learn from a live test subject such as Scott Peterson. We could remove parts of the brain and study what happens. We could even try to do the first total brain transplant. There is just so many possibilities if we could work on live human subjects without caring about their health.
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Post by halflife1052 on Apr 26, 2010 7:05:06 GMT -6
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