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Post by anna_marek on Sept 23, 2004 7:37:57 GMT -6
The murder of Jolene Stuedemann was an especially cruel and depraved act. Since Minnesota doesn't have the death penalty the perpetrator was free to sneer, smirk and brag about his act. I posted this thread on a forum dedicated primarily to Dru Sjodin and included details of 17 year old Jolene's horrible murder. www.volunteers4dru.org/DruForum/viewtopic.php?t=984I truely hope to post a picture of Jolene too, which would personalize her story and fight the 'out of sight out of mind syndrome'. Jolene's father Jim Stuedemann has been very active with Minnesota's Republican governor Tim Pawlenty's attempts to have the death penalty in MN reinstated to deter future horrific murders of this nature.
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 23, 2004 7:57:03 GMT -6
I hope her father is successful. Many antis equate putting a murderer to death the same as an excution. They think it is uncivilized to execute someone. They never say what it is to murder in the first place.
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Post by salemjones on Sept 23, 2004 14:47:47 GMT -6
Now listen to this statement then.
It is an uncivilized, cruel and terrible action to murder another human being.
It is also an uncivilized, cruel and terrible action to execute a human being.
Who would consider executions uncivilized but murders civilized? Ever considered the reason we think executions are uncivilized is the mere fact that killing is uncivilized in the first place, and should be avoided when there are reasonable options?
Case closed.
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 23, 2004 14:51:57 GMT -6
Now listen to this statement then. It is an uncivilized, cruel and terrible action to murder another human being. It is also an uncivilized, cruel and terrible action to execute a human being. Who would consider executions uncivilized but murders civilized? Ever considered the reason we think executions are uncivilized is the mere fact that killing is uncivilized in the first place, and should be avoided when there are reasonable options? Case closed. No I will never understand how you equate a deliberate murder of a humanbeing and putting a murderer to death. The only thing is you never mention the original victim.
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Post by anneclaire on Sept 23, 2004 15:11:43 GMT -6
Now listen to this statement then. It is an uncivilized, cruel and terrible action to murder another human being. It is also an uncivilized, cruel and terrible action to execute a human being. Who would consider executions uncivilized but murders civilized? Ever considered the reason we think executions are uncivilized is the mere fact that killing is uncivilized in the first place, and should be avoided when there are reasonable options? Case closed. I, on the other hand, think that it is the epitome of civilization for a society to recognize that crime deserves punishment, and that there are gradations of crime as there are gradations of punishment. That it is highly civilized to value a human life so dearly that one will not apologize for exacting the ultimate punishment upon a murderer. Murder cannot be tolerated by a civilized society. God, I just feel like I'm reiterating a tautology and antis just don't understand, just as I cannot understand why it is somehow uncivilized to excecute a violent, dangerous, predator. It is totally fundamental to me that a willful murder should give up his life. Murder must be condemned absolutely. Not by me, not by the victim's family, but by civilized society!
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Post by salemjones on Sept 23, 2004 15:17:48 GMT -6
As I've clarified before, "mentioning" the original victim wouldn't add anything of relevance in this context. One human being is dead and that is truly horrible, that is obvious and we don't have to repeat that in absurdum because we all feel that, whatever we may think of DP. The opinion differs regarding what should be done to the offender, that is a real human being actually living and that is the issue here, I believe. One victim is already lost, irrespectible of subsequent actions. However, we can make sure there is not another victim to the horrible, uncivilized act of killing. We can prevent tears from being cried by yet another family.
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 23, 2004 15:29:57 GMT -6
As I've clarified before, "mentioning" the original victim wouldn't add anything of relevance in this context. One human being is dead and that is truly horrible, that is obvious and we don't have to repeat that in absurdum because we all feel that, whatever we may think of DP. The opinion differs regarding what should be done to the offender, that is a real human being actually living and that is the issue here, I believe. One victim is already lost, irrespectible of subsequent actions. However, we can make sure there is not another victim to the horrible, uncivilized act of killing. We can prevent tears from being cried by yet another family. You tell me why it doesn't have relevance. How can you say something so flippantly? Wonder how you would feel if it was someone you loved? How can someone have such disrespect for a murdered person?
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Post by salemjones on Sept 23, 2004 15:56:27 GMT -6
Snowy, I expected a comment like that. Appearing cynical may be the price to pay when trying to be objective. However, the fact remains, the victim is dead and that can't be revoked. I would like to reassure You I have more tears for the "original victim" than for the criminal, but that is not a reason to prevent those other tears from being cried, because those tears can still be prevented, unlike the first ones, and I think, this board being a forum for a discussion on the DP is not a place where to cry for the reason of crying itself, but a place where to share one's opinion on how to limit the amount of crying necessary in society.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2004 16:06:00 GMT -6
Snowy, I expected a comment like that. Appearing cynical may be the price to pay when trying to be objective. However, the fact remains, the victim is dead and that can't be revoked. I would like to reassure You I have more tears for the "original victim" than for the criminal, but that is not a reason to prevent those other tears from being cried, because those tears can still be prevented, unlike the first ones, and I think, this board being a forum for a discussion on the DP is not a place where to cry for the reason of crying itself, but a place where to share one's opinion on how to limit the amount of crying necessary in society. What a load of sanctimonious BS...as if you think we have the power to control anyone elses tearsDo you honestly think that tears are prevented at any sentencing, whether it be one of the DP or LWOP, for either the victim's family or the perps?How naiive of you to suggest that we can prevent tears simply by removal of the death penalty. And how dare you to think you or ANYONE has the power to prevent tears and the sadness that usually accompanies them.
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 23, 2004 16:14:49 GMT -6
Snowy, I expected a comment like that. Appearing cynical may be the price to pay when trying to be objective. However, the fact remains, the victim is dead and that can't be revoked. I would like to reassure You I have more tears for the "original victim" than for the criminal, but that is not a reason to prevent those other tears from being cried, because those tears can still be prevented, unlike the first ones, and I think, this board being a forum for a discussion on the DP is not a place where to cry for the reason of crying itself, but a place where to share one's opinion on how to limit the amount of crying necessary in society. If you say you have more tears for the victim I won't say that you don't. I don't judge anyone's heart. I am sorry for the inmate's family. That is not anyone's fault but the inmate's. None of this has to do anything with paying the price for wrong. You can never undo the tears of the victim's family. So don't act like it doesn't matter. Don't you think you come across as the inmate as being the real victim? You may not mean to but you do. You can say it is wrong according to Christ but you can't back it up or any form of punishment. Christ never said how to punish anyone. Whether it be prison or whatever. It just simply wasn't said. Does this mean he was against punishing people?
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Macklin
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Post by Macklin on Sept 23, 2004 23:46:05 GMT -6
Salam Jones you wrote:
"I cannot understand why it is somehow uncivilized to excecute a violent, dangerous, predator. It is totally fundamental to me that a willful murder should give up his life. Murder must be condemned absolutely. Not by me, not by the victim's family, but by civilized society!"
My Reply:
Do you have a TV set ? If so turn it on and watch the News, all kinds of News, local, Intenational....
Can you read ? if so read about crimes, murders, and rapes commited daily on women, children, and animals ?
Now what is it that gives you the delusion that we are a civilized society ?
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Post by anna_marek on Sept 25, 2004 7:26:03 GMT -6
The death penalty is very clearly a deterrent. I certainly don't agree with Malayasia using the death penalty against drug abusers and Saudia Arabia executing people guilty of thievery or adultery, but the point is the death penalty is very clearly a deterrent against these 'offenses' in the countries mentioned. Logically the´death penalty is a deterrent in reducing the incidence of murder. In Mexico there is no death penalty (no executions since 1935) and the murder rate is much higher than in the US. True we can't bring murder victims back with the death penalty, BUT we can PROTECT THE INNOCENT, that is proect potential future victims by making the spectre of the death penalty very real to anyone considering such a horrific crime. Unlike Jolene's murderer no offender could taunt the victim's family with sneers and giggles and expect nothing more in consequences than checking in to 'Hotel Slambam' for room and board. How dare anyone try to compare a realistic attempt to protect the innocent with a deterrent which can truely make an impression on potential 'thrill killers' with the cruel and depraved desire of such murderers to torture and murder the innocent. That's the outrageous babbling of some ivory tower inhabitant! www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_capCountries where murder is rampant have no effective deterrents! www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.htmlColumbia outlawed the DP in 1910, Venezulela in 1863, South Africa-1995. Mexico hasn't employed it since 1935. Russia does have the DP, but conditions at the moment are still chaotic and anarchistic in many regions. Top 'murder countries' see link above. Country Description Amount 1. Colombia 0.63 per 1000 people 2. South Africa 0.51 per 1000 people 3. Jamaica 0.32 per 1000 people 4. Venezuela 0.32 per 1000 people 5. Russia 0.19 per 1000 people 6. Mexico 0.13 per 1000 people 24. United States 0.04 per 1000 people
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 25, 2004 8:01:05 GMT -6
Salam Jones you wrote: "I cannot understand why it is somehow uncivilized to excecute a violent, dangerous, predator. It is totally fundamental to me that a willful murder should give up his life. Murder must be condemned absolutely. Not by me, not by the victim's family, but by civilized society!" My Reply: Do you have a TV set ? If so turn it on and watch the News, all kinds of News, local, Intenational.... Can you read ? if so read about crimes, murders, and rapes commited daily on women, children, and animals ? Now what is it that gives you the delusion that we are a civilized society ? This is a good point. Salem do you consider a murderer a civilized person? And if we as a society put a murderer to death are we less civilized than the murderer? Civilized people become uncivilized trying to protect our civilized society!
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Post by AnneClaire NLI on Sept 25, 2004 9:06:53 GMT -6
Salam Jones you wrote: "I cannot understand why it is somehow uncivilized to excecute a violent, dangerous, predator. It is totally fundamental to me that a willful murder should give up his life. Murder must be condemned absolutely. Not by me, not by the victim's family, but by civilized society!" My Reply: Do you have a TV set ? If so turn it on and watch the News, all kinds of News, local, Intenational.... Can you read ? if so read about crimes, murders, and rapes commited daily on women, children, and animals ? Now what is it that gives you the delusion that we are a civilized society ? Oh, for Pete's sake, people! Salem Jones didn't write that, I did! And if you would freaking read what I wrote you would see that I am saying that it is PERFECTLY CIVILIZED TO EXECUTE A MURDERER. Lemme spell it out. CIVILIZATION = GOOD MURDER = UNCIVILIZED DP FOR MURDERERS = CIVILIZED = GOOD Gee whiz! It sounds like Macklin and Snowy actually think that the DP is uncivilized!
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 25, 2004 10:20:49 GMT -6
Oh, for Pete's sake, people! Salem Jones didn't write that, I did! And if you would freaking read what I wrote you would see that I am saying that it is PERFECTLY CIVILIZED TO EXECUTE A MURDERER. Lemme spell it out. CIVILIZATION = GOOD MURDER = UNCIVILIZED DP FOR MURDERERS = CIVILIZED = GOOD Gee whiz! It sounds like Macklin and Snowy actually think that the DP is uncivilized! I never understood it any other way. I know you think that it is civilized to execute murderers. I knew exactly what you meant. If you have read the board a lot Salem always says a civilized society doesn't execute murderers. If you go a few threads up you'll see a thread where Salem says it is uncivilized to execute people. I was just asking him questions. Didn't mean to upset you.
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 25, 2004 10:40:12 GMT -6
Gee whiz! It sounds like Macklin and Snowy actually think that the DP is uncivilized! What did Macklin or I write that made the dp sound uncivilized?
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Post by AnneClaire NLI on Sept 25, 2004 14:28:25 GMT -6
Sorry, Snowy! I just got a leetle bit ticked when Mack misread my post as the opposite of what I was saying, and even more when you quoted him quoting me as Salem. I gotta work on my communication skills if people think I'm in Salem's camp on DP. Anyway these are the things that made me think that ya'll thought the DP was uncivilized. Macklin: Now what is it that gives you the delusion that we are a civilized society? I interpret that to mean that the question of whether or not the DP is "civilized" is moot as society is so far gone anyway. As in, "So what if the DP is uncivilized? It's a Hobbesian world out there, baby!" Snowy: Civilized people become uncivilized trying to protect our civilized society! My interp: The DP is uncivilized, but it is the price we have to pay to maintain order. That's all.
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Post by snowy111 on Sept 25, 2004 15:13:39 GMT -6
Sorry, Snowy! I just got a leetle bit ticked when Mack misread my post as the opposite of what I was saying, and even more when you quoted him quoting me as Salem. I gotta work on my communication skills if people think I'm in Salem's camp on DP. Anyway these are the things that made me think that ya'll thought the DP was uncivilized. Macklin: Now what is it that gives you the delusion that we are a civilized society? I interpret that to mean that the question of whether or not the DP is "civilized" is moot as society is so far gone anyway. As in, "So what if the DP is uncivilized? It's a Hobbesian world out there, baby!" Snowy: Civilized people become uncivilized trying to protect our civilized society! My interp: The DP is uncivilized, but it is the price we have to pay to maintain order. That's all. Well if you will notice my thread I was asking Salem questions. I wasn't making statements. Salem goes on as if we are as uncivilized as murderers. It's not the same thing at all. Civilized people protect their society. I think Macklin was just trying to make a point to Salem. Not everyone on earth acts civilized. Which is true. I think Macklin was only responding to Salem the things that you responded to.
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Macklin
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Post by Macklin on Sept 25, 2004 15:18:01 GMT -6
Anna You Wrote: Sorry, Snowy! I just got a leetle bit ticked when Mack misread my post as the opposite of what I was saying, My Reply: First off are you Salam Jones ? The post I answered was supposed to be posted by Salam Jones. Why should you get ticked off at me becauae I asked him/her What gave them the delusion that we are a civilized society ? I like asking that question to people who think we are so civilized. To me it is just another of those'Flowery" words used to try to make something seem like that which it is not. There is nothing civilized about letting vicious murderers live to a ripe old age....If it were up to me I would delcared an Exceution Day. Where once a year all murderers on death row were executed on the same day. Their would be no 20 years wait while their lawyers lied and schemmed, wasted tax dollars to keep them alive. Cases like this one for example: www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/row/wallaced.htm?You read on this one where it says: Wallace v. Davis, ___ F.Supp.2d ___ (S.D. Ind. November 14, 2002). (Order of Judge Sarah Evans Barker of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Indiana denying the Habeas Corpus Petition of Donald Ray Wallace, which had been pending for more than 7 years, an unconscionable delay that is left unexplained by the Court.) Want to know who got Judge Sarah Evans Parker off her ass To do something about an appeal that she had for 7 years....I DID !!! Want to know who is going to get the unconscionable delay explained...I AM !!! And this piece of crap that killed Brandy.....I am on top of this one to....No unconscionable delays are going to show up here. www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/row/stephe~1.htm?These scum wads would not be breathing. Because they are absolutely guilty of what they did. It is not civilized to let fecal matter such as this remaind piled amoung us.
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Post by anna_marek on Oct 1, 2004 7:30:26 GMT -6
Macklin! You're a beautiful person and our children and loved ones are safer with people like you letting these blood thirsty thrill killers know that we won't hesitate to use convincing deterrents such as the DP to stop them once and for all. We thus warn potential killers that they should seek help for their depraved condition, because if they live their 'lusts' out then they're finished! I have trouble understanding some of these anti-DP people. It seems like they have a fetishistic reverence for the human physical form-even if a demonic soul inhabits that form. Then again a lot of these antis-especially the European type are very pro-abortion.( ) I'm sure Jolene's cold blooded murderer would have no problem raping and stabbing to death the sister or daughter of an anti-DP activist. This monster stabbed Jolene over 30 times with a screwdriver and beat her savagely as well. He then brutally stuffed a newspaper in Jolene's mouth, while she was dying leaving his fingerprints all over. He's now free to boast, brag, snicker and giggle about his monstrous act with other hardened criminals in anti-DP Minnesota's comfortable prison. The potential killers in MN at large know that the worst they can expect is 'early retirement' with room and board', if they torture an innocent person to death, like the cruel and heartless killer of 18 year old Jolene Stuedemann did!
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Macklin
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Post by Macklin on Oct 1, 2004 13:21:12 GMT -6
SpearmintGal...You Wrote:
Macklin! You're a beautiful person and our children and loved ones are safer with people like you letting these blood thirsty thrill killers know that we won't hesitate to use convincing deterrents such as the DP to stop them once and for all.
My Reply:
Well, I don't know how beautiful I am...I do believe that the DP should be used more, and take up less time and tax dollars. Especially on those that are absolutely guilty.
It should not take 20 years of bull crap appeals to end up at the same point where it started....but then lying lawyers would have their incomes shortened now wouldn't they. ----------------------------- You wrote:
We thus warn potential killers that they should seek help for their depraved condition, because if they live their 'lusts' out then they're finished!
My reply:
Personally I think learning about the DP should start in Kindergarden So that by the time they get the age to commit a murder they will KNOW that the DP could be a result of having murdered someone. Life is about choices...Choose not to murder, and there won't be a death penalty. Choose to murder, then the needle is yours. -----------------------------
You wrote:
I have trouble understanding some of these anti-DP people. It seems like they have a fetishistic reverence for the human physical form-even if a demonic soul inhabits that form. Then again a lot of these antis-especially the European type are very pro-abortion.()
My reply:
I don't get it either how a person who is an anti can believe in murdering innocent babys, yet not want to excute guilty henious murderers. Some claim the should be the absolute right of the mother, to decide if she wants to be held responsibile for the life of a baby, yet denies the State the same right to rid itself of tax sucking murderers. Go figure. _________________________
You wrote:
I'm sure Jolene's cold blooded murderer would have no problem raping and stabbing to death the sister or daughter of an anti-DP activist. This monster stabbed Jolene over 30 times with a screwdriver and beat her savagely as well. He then brutally stuffed a newspaper in Jolene's mouth, while she was dying leaving his fingerprints all over. He's now free to boast, brag, snicker and giggle about his monstrous act with other hardened criminals in anti-DP Minnesota's comfortable prison. The potential killers in MN at large know that the worst they can expect is 'early retirement' with room and board', if they torture an innocent person to death, like the cruel and heartless killer of 18 year old Jolene Stuedemann did!
My Reply:
You bet the murderer would not have a problem with killing a relative of an anti. The murder who killed Brandy Southard, shot her several times with an assult rifle, when she still had the life in her to try to run, he chased her, stabbed her several times and cut her throat so bad it was left hanging on her body by just a small hunk of tissue.
Yup I am going to stay on top of this DP case to....
Murderer John Stephenson is polluting the air with his carbon monoxide, wasting tax dollars on endless appeals, and keeping him alive when he should be executed the day after he was sentenced.
Brandy was a beautiful young lady a daughter of a friend of mine. She worked hard and was studing to be a child psycologist...(I think that is how you spell it.)
I take the Donald Ray Wallace and John Stephenson murderers very seriously.
Wallace...because I processed his crime scene photo's and what he did to that family should have been reason enough to execute him right away for being the mad dog that he is.
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Post by anna_marek on Oct 2, 2004 10:11:08 GMT -6
Very well put Macklin! I just wish people with your insights were running Minnesota before Jolene Stuedemann, Dru Sjodin and so many others were confronted by their murderers-the killers may very probaly have made their choices differently. I can't say every victim would be saved, but certainly a considerable procent of them. To really sink the antis belief that the DP does not deter such murders this detailed article really stops them cold. www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html#deter
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Post by anna_marek on Oct 10, 2004 8:12:11 GMT -6
I posted another thread for Jolene at: mysticsnowangel.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=crimes&action=display&thread=1088165478I hope to obtain a picture of Jolene to post. It's so important to show we care and many of these brutal, hardened killers are convinced the victim will be quickly forgotten: out of sight out of mind. It's a cruel cynical thought pattern, but usually the victim is forgotten by most when these killers are released from prison.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2004 10:16:26 GMT -6
The murder of Jolene Stuedemann was an especially cruel and depraved act. Since Minnesota doesn't have the death penalty the perpetrator was free to sneer, smirk and brag about his act. I posted this thread on a forum dedicated primarily to Dru Sjodin and included details of 18 year old Jolene's horrible murder. www.volunteers4dru.org/DruForum/viewtopic.php?t=984I truely hope to post a picture of Jolene too, which would personalize her story and fight the 'out of sight out of mind syndrome'. Jolene's father Jim Stuedemann has been very active with Minnesota's Republican governor Tim Pawlenty's attempts to have the death penalty in MN reinstated to deter future horrific murders of this nature. I hope Minnesota gets the death penalty reinstated as well. I feel bad for that victim's family. The perp brags about the murder and the victim was cheated and denied justice! Unfortunately, Minnesota is not the only state facing this problem. I live in Madison, WI, and we don't have the death penalty either. If every state in the US had the death penalty, this whole problem will be solved. Leah
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Post by RickZ on Oct 10, 2004 15:47:43 GMT -6
If every state in the US had the death penalty, this whole problem will be solved. Unfortunately, that is not a panacea, either. The DA in the Bronx, Robert Johnson, made plain that he would never seek a death penalty in his borough, contrary to the law of New York, which, BTW, he is sworn to uphold. A few years back, a cop killer in the Bronx was arrested. Johnson refused to seek the death penalty. Gov. Pataki, of whom I'm not a fan, did the right thing in that case and removed the Bronx DA from the case, handing it over to the NY Attorney General's office. The matter became moot when the suspect hanged himself in a holding cell before trial. The same problem occurs with the Manhattan DA, Robert Morgenthau. He is personally adverse to the death penalty, but plays a slicker game. He has a staff that reviews cases that could be subject to the death penalty. Miracle of miracles, he has never sought the death penalty in a Manhattan case, either. The Brooklyn DA, Joe Hines, also opposes the death penalty. But that borough has had cases where it sought the death penalty, and won. The same situation holds true for the Queens DA, Richard Brown. Another issue is the election process of DAs across the country. Kowtowing to election politics, they can seek the death penalty in cases where it might otherwise be inappropriate, just to show their 'belief' in the death penalty, of how strong they support it. There is a wide lattitude given to prosectors when it comes to seeking, or not seeking, the death penalty. There is also the serious matter of cost. In some smaller jurisdictions, to prosecute a legitimate death penalty case can cause a severe financial burden on the jurisdiction, to the point that seeking a death penalty does not become a viable option. This just shows that a death penalty case may not be sought for monetary reasons, to the detriment of, and emasculating, the law itself. [These points of discussion come from a pro-DP advocate, BTW.] Can the seeking of the death penalty ever be equitable? I'm not sure. One hope is that the Federal Government can step in and seek the death penalty where appropriate; that would occur only if there is a tinkering with the Federal Death Penalty law itself. But allowing those who commit heinous murders to escape ultimate justice because of real or perceived inequalities in prosecution decision making is not a solution. either. As for killing the death penalty [pun intended], there is a very pertinent matter. Living inside Corocoran State Prison, in CA, and coming up regularly for parole is none other that Charles Manson. He escaped his death sentence when the Supreme Court overturned the death penalty in Fuhrman vs Georgia. With any luck, the Parole Board in the Land of Fruits and Nuts will deny him parole forever, but there is no guarantee of that at all; stranger things have happened. Then there is the poster child of murderers paroled as a result of Fuhrman, Kenneth McDuff. He got out and went on to kill again, finally being executed by Texas. CA now has, what, around 500 prisoners on Death Row? Where would these lovely, upstanding citizens be placed if the death penalty were overturned? And who would become at risk if placed in a general population setting? Certainly other prisoners, which would violate their civil rights, but also correction officers. While I'm at it, the idea using LWOP for these killers is a strawman. If ever the death penalty is overturned, pro-prisoner advocates would seek to have that sentenced removed on the grounds of it being cruel and unusual. Some have mentioned building more Supermax prisons. One problem is the cost to build and maintain such penal institutions. But another is that, presently, there are lawsuits against the Supermax concept, again, on the grounds that Supermax' are inherently cruel and unusual. Too many people side with men who commit evil acts. They are horrified that we would condemn these evil men to death. I, for one, am glad we do.
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Post by RickZ on Oct 10, 2004 16:25:57 GMT -6
Too many people side with men . . . . . . and women . . .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2004 22:04:46 GMT -6
Unfortunately, that is not a panacea, either. The DA in the Bronx, Robert Johnson, made plain that he would never seek a death penalty in his borough, contrary to the law of New York, which, BTW, he is sworn to uphold. A few years back, a cop killer in the Bronx was arrested. Johnson refused to seek the death penalty. Gov. Pataki, of whom I'm not a fan, did the right thing in that case and removed the Bronx DA from the case, handing it over to the NY Attorney General's office. The matter became moot when the suspect hanged himself in a holding cell before trial. The same problem occurs with the Manhattan DA, Robert Morgenthau. He is personally adverse to the death penalty, but plays a slicker game. He has a staff that reviews cases that could be subject to the death penalty. Miracle of miracles, he has never sought the death penalty in a Manhattan case, either. The Brooklyn DA, Joe Hines, also opposes the death penalty. But that borough has had cases where it sought the death penalty, and won. The same situation holds true for the Queens DA, Richard Brown. Another issue is the election process of DAs across the country. Kowtowing to election politics, they can seek the death penalty in cases where it might otherwise be inappropriate, just to show their 'belief' in the death penalty, of how strong they support it. There is a wide lattitude given to prosectors when it comes to seeking, or not seeking, the death penalty. There is also the serious matter of cost. In some smaller jurisdictions, to prosecute a legitimate death penalty case can cause a severe financial burden on the jurisdiction, to the point that seeking a death penalty does not become a viable option. This just shows that a death penalty case may not be sought for monetary reasons, to the detriment of, and emasculating, the law itself. [These points of discussion come from a pro-DP advocate, BTW.] Can the seeking of the death penalty ever be equitable? I'm not sure. One hope is that the Federal Government can step in and seek the death penalty where appropriate; that would occur only if there is a tinkering with the Federal Death Penalty law itself. But allowing those who commit heinous murders to escape ultimate justice because of real or perceived inequalities in prosecution decision making is not a solution. either. As for killing the death penalty [pun intended], there is a very pertinent matter. Living inside Corocoran State Prison, in CA, and coming up regularly for parole is none other that Charles Manson. He escaped his death sentence when the Supreme Court overturned the death penalty in Fuhrman vs Georgia. With any luck, the Parole Board in the Land of Fruits and Nuts will deny him parole forever, but there is no guarantee of that at all; stranger things have happened. Then there is the poster child of murderers paroled as a result of Fuhrman, Kenneth McDuff. He got out and went on to kill again, finally being executed by Texas. CA now has, what, around 500 prisoners on Death Row? Where would these lovely, upstanding citizens be placed if the death penalty were overturned? And who would become at risk if placed in a general population setting? Certainly other prisoners, which would violate their civil rights, but also correction officers. While I'm at it, the idea using LWOP for these killers is a strawman. If ever the death penalty is overturned, pro-prisoner advocates would seek to have that sentenced removed on the grounds of it being cruel and unusual. Some have mentioned building more Supermax prisons. One problem is the cost to build and maintain such penal institutions. But another is that, presently, there are lawsuits against the Supermax concept, again, on the grounds that Supermax' are inherently cruel and unusual. Too many people side with men who commit evil acts. They are horrified that we would condemn these evil men to death. I, for one, am glad we do. Those NY DA's seem to be out to lunch. If NY is electing DA's who can't uphold the law or only choose to for like you said "the sake of being pro - dp," then there is a major problem. NY's death penalty statute is under attack as it is. A DA should look at everything case by case, agravating circumstances, mitigating, how heinuous the cirme, will he kill again, the victims' wishes, risk to the community and within a penal institution with LWOP in determining whether to seek the death penalty, among other things. Yes, I agree with you that even with the death penalty, there are still loopholes, look at George Ryan for example! Yes, LWOP is very expensive as to builing billion dollar supermax penal institutions. As side from appeals with LWOP, taxpayers have to pay for food, housing, laundry, medical, geriatric, AND dental care. These inmates can be locked up for a span of 75 years! Picture this!
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Post by anonymous on Oct 11, 2004 11:49:22 GMT -6
The tax payers anger should be going to the government on why they are paying for the guys in prison. Prisons use to be self supportive, the guys grew their own food, did their own laundry..etc.... everything.
Because of the "lock e'm up and throw the key away" mentality, the tax payers are now paying for the government's "tough on crime" crap.
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Post by anna_marek on Oct 11, 2004 13:49:08 GMT -6
Thanks for your thoughtful remarks Leah! RickZ -Remodeling prisons to correspond to the sweat shops in foreign countries so as to compete worldwide in some form of production would be a useful plan and rehabilitate prisoners more likely than letting them idly sit around and plan future crimes. Me and several of my e-mail friends are still trying to get a picture of Jolene to post. This thoughtful response came from the Pioneer Press reporter "Schmitz, Luletta" lschmitz@pioneerpress.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:55:07 -0500 Your E-mail was forwarded to me. You had asked if it was possible to locate a photo of Jolene Stuedemann. I have searched our archives for all photos taken by our in-house photographers (as those are the only photos we are allowed to reproduce). I found 4 referring to the July 11, 2000 discovery of Jolene, but none show the young woman. Only the outside of the home where she lived, the investigator on the case and side view of the crime scene tape around the neighborhood where the discovery was made. Sorry if this causes a problem for plans for the memorializing of the young woman. I too agree that these events should not be forgotten. Feel free to contact me directly with any further questions you may have. Sincerely, LuLetta Schmitz Customer Service St. Paul Pioneer Press 345 Cedar Street St. Paul, MN 55101 To my friends helping us keep Jolene's memory alive: THANK YOU! Imagine how different Dru Sjodin's tragic story would have been dealt with if no pictures were ever released of her! UNTHINKABLE!! The biggest argument of many detained murderers is 'no one remembers or cares anymore about the person I killed.' Out of sight out of mind?? NEVER! Remember the victim forget the killer-unless he's at large in our society again.!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2004 19:36:42 GMT -6
Thanks for your thoughtful remarks Leah! RickZ -Remodeling prisons to correspond to the sweat shops in foreign countries so as to compete worldwide in some form of production would be a useful plan and rehabilitate prisoners more likely than letting them idly sit around and plan future crimes. Me and several of my e-mail friends are still trying to get a picture of Jolene to post. This thoughtful response came from the Pioneer Press reporter "Schmitz, Luletta" lschmitz@pioneerpress.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:55:07 -0500 Your E-mail was forwarded to me. You had asked if it was possible to locate a photo of Jolene Stuedemann. I have searched our archives for all photos taken by our in-house photographers (as those are the only photos we are allowed to reproduce). I found 4 referring to the July 11, 2000 discovery of Jolene, but none show the young woman. Only the outside of the home where she lived, the investigator on the case and side view of the crime scene tape around the neighborhood where the discovery was made. Sorry if this causes a problem for plans for the memorializing of the young woman. I too agree that these events should not be forgotten. Feel free to contact me directly with any further questions you may have. Sincerely, LuLetta Schmitz Customer Service St. Paul Pioneer Press 345 Cedar Street St. Paul, MN 55101 To my friends helping us keep Jolene's memory alive: THANK YOU! Imagine how different Dru Sjodin's tragic story would have been dealt with if no pictures were ever released of her! UNTHINKABLE!! The biggest argument of many detained murderers is 'no one remembers or cares anymore about the person I killed.' Out of sight out of mind?? NEVER! Remember the victim forget the killer-unless he's at large in our society again.! How is Tim Pawlenty doing on restoring justice in Minnesota? After reading a few of your posts and about how ther perp laughed in the face of justice knowing he "so he think's" has nothing to lose. In Wisconsin, we now have a supermax Prison in Boscobel. There was some discussion on that. Though costly, it is a step in the right direction for people like Jeffrey Dahmer, or Jolene's killer. However, it would be nice to add a death chamber. That way, we only need to build one supermax prison, and this will keep the prison population in check. I heard rumors that the death penalty vote is now on the ballot in Minnesota. Any updates? Leah
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