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Post by Leah on Dec 23, 2003 19:33:47 GMT -6
Boy adopted last month beaten to death Monday, December 22, 2003 Posted: 9:40 AM EST (1440 GMT) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SCHAUMBURG, Illinois (AP) -- A 6-year-old boy adopted from Russia only last month was beaten to death, and police charged his adoptive mother with murder. Irma Pavlis admitted that she struck her son, Alex, on several occasions, police Lt. Dennis Carroll said. Carroll said Pavlis, 32, called 911 Thursday afternoon to report that the boy was not breathing. He died Friday evening at Loyola University Medical Center in Maywood. The cause of death was blunt head trauma, the Cook County medical examiner's office said. Authorities said Pavlis and her husband, Dino Pavlis, adopted Alex and a 5-year-old girl in Russia early last month. The girl, who apparently was unharmed, was placed in the custody of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services. Department spokesman Jill Manuel said the couple had arranged the adoptions privately, but did go to an agency to obtain the background study required in international adoptions. The study found no criminal background or history of child abuse, Manuel said. Police said Dino Pavlis was at work at the time the child was injured and was not involved. His employer, Grant DeNormandie, said the couple had been excited about the adoptions and had gone to Russia three times to complete the process. "This is something they've been looking forward to for a year," DeNormandie said. "Dino's wife spent over a year learning Russian so she could try and talk to them." The children had no known behavioral problems, DeNormandie said. Irma Pavlis remained in police custody awaiting a bond hearing Monday. TEXTIrma tortured her adoptive son to death and deserves the death penalty. This hopeful 6-year-old came to the US with high hopes for a better life, only to get it snuffed prematurely ~SIGH~.
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Post by Donnie on Dec 24, 2003 8:17:16 GMT -6
Boy adopted last month beaten to death Irma tortured her adoptive son to death and deserves the death penalty. This hopeful 6-year-old came to the US with high hopes for a better life, only to get it snuffed prematurely ~SIGH~. Due to the recent "reform" of the Illinois DP laws, this may not be a DP-eligible crime.
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Post by Leah on Dec 24, 2003 9:05:44 GMT -6
Due to the recent "reform" of the Illinois DP laws, this may not be a DP-eligible crime. Yes, the so-called reform is unfortunate. However, recently, I found out that there are currently at least three inmates on death row since the scandal happened. There may be a glimmier of hope. Leah
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Cinathe master of disasterEB
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Post by Cinathe master of disasterEB on Jan 7, 2004 14:14:16 GMT -6
How is the refromation of capital punishment in Illnois unfortunate? I find it very disturbing how you Pro-DP's enjoy the death of others
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Post by GlennF on Jan 7, 2004 14:46:34 GMT -6
How is the refromation of capital punishment in Illnois unfortunate? I find it very disturbing how you Pro-DP's enjoy the death of others We pros find it extremely disturbing that Alex had to lose his life the way he did. It is now up to the state to punish the person responsible. Because of the efforts from the anti establishment (i.e. the corrupt governor Ryan and his anti DP compatriots) the law was changed to protect such vicious murderers, but as an anti your sole concern is obviously the well-being of the murderer.
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Post by D.E.E. on Jan 7, 2004 16:14:26 GMT -6
How is the refromation of capital punishment in Illnois unfortunate? I find it very disturbing how you Pro-DP's enjoy the death of others How is it that by wanting to see a murderer punished to the maxium the law provides makes us enjoy death. I personally see each person on DR as someone that is a lost soul and I hope that someday they will find themselves, that does not mean they should not be punished. Since death is the maxium in some states then so be it, this still does not mean I enjoy it.
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Jochen
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Post by Jochen on Jan 9, 2004 12:49:37 GMT -6
How is it that by wanting to see a murderer punished to the maxium the law provides makes us enjoy death. I personally see each person on DR as someone that is a lost soul and I hope that someday they will find themselves, that does not mean they should not be punished. Since death is the maxium in some states then so be it, this still does not mean I enjoy it. Hi D.E.E., I think you tell the truth with this and I try to respect it. I'm sure you made a honestly statement with this. But your thesis can be seen differnt: After... death, the DR-offender is a "lost soul". You did the first step showing your respect instead of feeling satisfied by errasing their lifes. Now it should come into progress because we have the authority of their "somedays" if we deny to kill them but punish them with the highest lifelongterm. You told me a couple of weeks ago that you belive in God ( and I didn't want you to accuse of this- if it appears to you this way: please here's my apology). I don't trust in religous power the way it is but I'm sure that we have to make our efforts uppon those people to make them feel and see that we don't punish them equal to them who errased our loved ones. You know my position (LWOP). Jochen
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Post by D.E.E. on Jan 9, 2004 16:14:39 GMT -6
Hi D.E.E., I think you tell the truth with this and I try to respect it. I'm sure you made a honestly statement with this. But your thesis can be seen differnt: After... death, the DR-offender is a "lost soul". You did the first step showing your respect instead of feeling satisfied by errasing their lifes. Now it should come into progress because we have the authority of their "somedays" if we deny to kill them but punish them with the highest lifelongterm. You told me a couple of weeks ago that you belive in God ( and I didn't want you to accuse of this- if it appears to you this way: please here's my apology). I don't trust in religous power the way it is but I'm sure that we have to make our efforts uppon those people to make them feel and see that we don't punish them equal to them who errased our loved ones. You know my position (LWOP). Jochen Their soul may or may not stay lost, even a murderer can accept Christ and not be lost. That has little to do with their punishment, one is a spritual thing the other a physical thing. I am not sure wht you mean by "because we have the authority of their "somedays" if we deny to kill them but punish them with the highest lifelongterm." I believe that the life long term is fine if that is what the court gives them I also believe it is fine to execute them if that is what the court give them. This has nothing to do with God or his authority, it has to do with the punishment on this earth, I am sure God is a better judgfe and will know whom to punish and who is saved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2004 6:16:52 GMT -6
I am from Illinois and I know for a fact that a 1st degree murder of a child under 12 is still a capital offense Thank God. My 15 month old daughter was a victim of shaken baby syndrome and the state did seek the death penalty. Unfortunately the judge gave her murderer the mercy my daughter was denied and sentenced him to LWOP. There is no excuse for the abuse of a child. It is the one crime that should ALWAYS be punishable by death!!!
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Jochen
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Post by Jochen on Jan 10, 2004 8:42:32 GMT -6
Their soul may or may not stay lost, even a murderer can accept Christ and not be lost. That has little to do with their punishment, one is a spritual thing the other a physical thing. I am not sure wht you mean by "because we have the authority of their "somedays" if we deny to kill them but punish them with the highest lifelongterm." I believe that the life long term is fine if that is what the court gives them I also believe it is fine to execute them if that is what the court give them. This has nothing to do with God or his authority, it has to do with the punishment on this earth, I am sure God is a better judgfe and will know whom to punish and who is saved. Hi D.E.E, I think that spirtual and phsical components are one unit - every "body" consits out of "hardware and soft- ware" - let's name this "body&soul". "Soul" means not necessarily "moral" aspects but an inner mind whatever it consists out of. And this "soul" dies with the death of its body- prior to death this "soul" is still alaive. I can't faith in religious works if they teach their fellows to grant mercy, tolerance and peace but at the same time they tolerate Capital Punishment- this makes those churches and religious groups inplausible. You've mentioned the offenders who may "someday find peace": they're depending on the mercifull moralists and christians wich could send them to LWOP instead of killing them in the name of their religous beliefs and as an evidence that praying not only means to create a more peacefull horizont in "the next life" but moreover to the present. (As I've told you I don't have religous beliefs because they are used much often to justify the opposite of their meanings).
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Post by D.E.E. on Jan 10, 2004 10:27:58 GMT -6
Hi D.E.E, I think that spirtual and phsical components are one unit - every "body" consits out of "hardware and soft- ware" - let's name this "body&soul". "Soul" means not necessarily "moral" aspects but an inner mind whatever it consists out of. And this "soul" dies with the death of its body- prior to death this "soul" is still alaive. I can't faith in religious works if they teach their fellows to grant mercy, tolerance and peace but at the same time they tolerate Capital Punishment- this makes those churches and religious groups inplausible. You've mentioned the offenders who may "someday find peace": they're depending on the mercifull moralists and christians wich could send them to LWOP instead of killing them in the name of their religous beliefs and as an evidence that praying not only means to create a more peacefull horizont in "the next life" but moreover to the present. (As I've told you I don't have religous beliefs because they are used much often to justify the opposite of their meanings). I see things very different; I see the body as physical and very different from the spiritual. The soul is part of the spiritual while the mind is part of the physical, now the soul is clean and pure at birth and becomes corrupt as the body grows and the mind learns, no soul can ever be fully clean but it can be redeemed. A criminal who has murdered and never accepts God is doomed no matter what we do; however one that does accept God is saved no matter what we do. Punishment for crimes on this physical earth are for the people of the physical world to punish while the punishment for sins that corrupt the soul are Gods area and not one I am qualified to say what he does or does not. If you do not accept religion that is on you and you alone no one tells you that you have to believe in anything or believe in something for any reason. There are a great many people that do believe in God that does not believe in the DP, conversely there are a great many people that believe in God that does believe in the DP. There are many people that do not believe in any God that believes in the DP and many that do no believe in the DP. It is not an issue to base a religious belief on; one must look at the entire religion to make a decision. Of course it is your choice I have made mine.
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Jochen
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Post by Jochen on Jan 10, 2004 12:06:47 GMT -6
I see things very different; I see the body as physical and very different from the spiritual. The soul is part of the spiritual while the mind is part of the physical, now the soul is clean and pure at birth and becomes corrupt as the body grows and the mind learns, no soul can ever be fully clean but it can be redeemed. A criminal who has murdered and never accepts God is doomed no matter what we do; however one that does accept God is saved no matter what we do. Punishment for crimes on this physical earth are for the people of the physical world to punish while the punishment for sins that corrupt the soul are Gods area and not one I am qualified to say what he does or does not. If you do not accept religion that is on you and you alone no one tells you that you have to believe in anything or believe in something for any reason. There are a great many people that do believe in God that does not believe in the DP, conversely there are a great many people that believe in God that does believe in the DP. There are many people that do not believe in any God that believes in the DP and many that do no believe in the DP. It is not an issue to base a religious belief on; one must look at the entire religion to make a decision. Of course it is your choice I have made mine. Hi D.E.E. , Your profile describes and explains the dilemma of the use of religous works very clear again: Those Christians/Not-Christians who do/don't bel- ve into the issue of Capital Punishment as my reminded summary of how Christians/Moslems/Orthodoxians a.s.o. are using the issues of religion to justify and to exculpate their missguided use of it. I respect you and each who confirms to religion but I can't agree with artificial or rethorical elements wich are out of the choosen issues and its senses. It appears always to me that direction that unconfort- able issues will be regarded to judge "different"- a suddenly cut of "society versus church"- in the question of death penalty as legal punishment. You know that your body is a" unit" if it belongs to our egocentric-behaviour: Cancer can be healed not only by effective therapy and effective medication - important is how you'll deal with your temporary insanity. That means you're not the "slave" who've to hope and to pray for your vitality comming back to you- it's your active influence of your mind/soul (or whatever you may call it) wich supports your physical healing process. Another example that body and soul are a "unit", is how you can motivate yourself before examinations, your daily job, sports et cetera. And I'm sure that every human beeing finds out sufficient examples of "body&soul=unit". Refering to this aspect the message as its delighted to humans by the churches becomes confuse and not plausible. Than "loving your enemies like yourself" ; "peace on earth" ; "mercy over guilt" becomes an nostalgic and artificial Saga- a beautifull fantasy/ daydream. Nobody who died ever came back after his death to tell all those (who confirm to their religions) that God exists and that love&friendship will endure for eternity. So in my oppinion all those humans who might confess to any religous churches should live their belives now and here on earth.
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Post by D.E.E. on Jan 10, 2004 15:27:16 GMT -6
Hi D.E.E. , Your profile describes and explains the dilemma of the use of religous works very clear again: Those Christians/Not-Christians who do/don't bel- ve into the issue of Capital Punishment as my reminded summary of how Christians/Moslems/Orthodoxians a.s.o. are using the issues of religion to justify and to exculpate their missguided use of it. I respect you and each who confirms to religion but I can't agree with artificial or rethorical elements wich are out of the choosen issues and its senses. It appears always to me that direction that unconfort- able issues will be regarded to judge "different"- a suddenly cut of "society versus church"- in the question of death penalty as legal punishment. You know that your body is a" unit" if it belongs to our egocentric-behaviour: Cancer can be healed not only by effective therapy and effective medication - important is how you'll deal with your temporary insanity. That means you're not the "slave" who've to hope and to pray for your vitality comming back to you- it's your active influence of your mind/soul (or whatever you may call it) wich supports your physical healing process. Another example that body and soul are a "unit", is how you can motivate yourself before examinations, your daily job, sports et cetera. And I'm sure that every human beeing finds out sufficient examples of "body&soul=unit". Refering to this aspect the message as its delighted to humans by the churches becomes confuse and not plausible. Than "loving your enemies like yourself" ; "peace on earth" ; "mercy over guilt" becomes an nostalgic and artificial Saga- a beautifull fantasy/ daydream. Nobody who died ever came back after his death to tell all those (who confirm to their religions) that God exists and that love&friendship will endure for eternity. So in my oppinion all those humans who might confess to any religous churches should live their belives now and here on earth. I am sorry I do not completely understand what you are saying it may be because English is not your first language and syntax is not clear to me. I am not trying to be ugly or unkind I just do not follow every thing you are saying it does not make sense to me. I will try to respond as best I can. To me religion is a very personal thing and I am responsible to my God for following what I think is right and what I believe he wants me to do. The bible is a great guideline but I do not hold it to be the complete works, I believe the Koran, The Torah, some Buddhist text and other religious works are all the works of God. I happen to be a Christen and so I believe I must accept Christ as my lord and savior but I do not discount that others may also be right, I do not know the mind of God and how he plans to reach everyone. Some people will use any excuse to kill and take what belongs to others including religions. I see little sense in those wars that are caused to force others to believe in God especially when it is the same God the others believe in. As for the DP, a person must murder some one to get the DP. The state has the right and the duty to protect its people even if it must kill to do so. Murderers have no one to blame but themselves for their predicament. They took someone’s life for fun or profit and now they have to pay for it, some do not believe that killing them is right that it lowers us in some way to the same level as the murderer. This is a false premise as they are given a fair trial with a jury, given several appeals and all protection of the law. They all knew in advance that if caught the DP was a possibility and all of this means we are not on the same level as the murderer. I have little concern over what other countries think of the US laws as it is our laws and not theirs, each country can make its own laws and should if other countries do not like it that is tough. There is a thing called mind, body, and soul. In your discussion I believe you are talking about the mind and the body. While the soul is a part of the whole the soul can be rotten and still the mind and body can be in good shape. The opposite is also true, a person can be sick mentally or physically and the soul still be in good shape. An athlete can get his self prepared for a competition both physically and mentally; this has nothing to do with the soul. The soul is entirely different and is a part of each of us that holds the goodness and/or the badness of each of us.
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Post by TexasLady on Jan 10, 2004 20:25:32 GMT -6
This happened only a month after I came home with my daughter. IMO, not only was this child murdered by someone who was supposed to love him but this case could jeopardize future adoptions in Russia as well as other former Soviet countries. They already have some very odd ideas about why we Americans want to adopt their children.
Having just gone through the process, I can't understand how someone would work so hard, fight so hard, go through so much, only to have it all come down to beating the child to death. My guess is she'll plead "Post Adoptive Depression" which is similar to "Post Partum Depression." She'll probably get off. Sad as it sounds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2004 6:06:02 GMT -6
The minimum she faces is 30 for aggravated battery to a child. That is with out the 1st degree murder charges manditory LWOP. This all happen about 15 minutes from where I grew up. It was all over the news. At least Cook county has a record of being tough on child abusers.
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Jochen
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Post by Jochen on Jan 13, 2004 5:04:17 GMT -6
I am sorry I do not completely understand what you are saying it may be because English is not your first language and syntax is not clear to me. I am not trying to be ugly or unkind I just do not follow every thing you are saying it does not make sense to me. I will try to respond as best I can. To me religion is a very personal thing and I am responsible to my God for following what I think is right and what I believe he wants me to do. The bible is a great guideline but I do not hold it to be the complete works, I believe the Koran, The Torah, some Buddhist text and other religious works are all the works of God. I happen to be a Christen and so I believe I must accept Christ as my lord and savior but I do not discount that others may also be right, I do not know the mind of God and how he plans to reach everyone. Some people will use any excuse to kill and take what belongs to others including religions. I see little sense in those wars that are caused to force others to believe in God especially when it is the same God the others believe in. As for the DP, a person must murder some one to get the DP. The state has the right and the duty to protect its people even if it must kill to do so. Murderers have no one to blame but themselves for their predicament. They took someone’s life for fun or profit and now they have to pay for it, some do not believe that killing them is right that it lowers us in some way to the same level as the murderer. This is a false premise as they are given a fair trial with a jury, given several appeals and all protection of the law. They all knew in advance that if caught the DP was a possibility and all of this means we are not on the same level as the murderer. I have little concern over what other countries think of the US laws as it is our laws and not theirs, each country can make its own laws and should if other countries do not like it that is tough. There is a thing called mind, body, and soul. In your discussion I believe you are talking about the mind and the body. While the soul is a part of the whole the soul can be rotten and still the mind and body can be in good shape. The opposite is also true, a person can be sick mentally or physically and the soul still be in good shape. An athlete can get his self prepared for a competition both physically and mentally; this has nothing to do with the soul. The soul is entirely different and is a part of each of us that holds the goodness and/or the badness of each of us. Hi D.E.E. , I'm sorry that I didn't answer your comment earlier. (Yes, I'm not a native speaker but I guess you've picked up my intention. That's okay.) Well, the point is ( as I've said before) that each culture is influenced by its religion on all continents. I assume that the western part almost confirms to "one" God ( with similar sections like chatolics; fel- lows of the Luther- Curch ; Baptists a.s.o. ). The main message out of all those sections are accomplished: "Love your enemy like you love yourself" " Who isn't guilty to be able to throw the first stone?" " mercy" . ..et cetera. Again my question: why do christians not live their beliefs and go on to work it out ( mercy, clemency, loving their enemies like they love themselves) each day rebirthed as their bible want's them to do so? More comfortable aspects are solved with the "new testament" instead of uncomfortable phanomeas like the death penalty, wich seems to be almost justified and exculpated by the "old testament" ("An eye for an eye") - not in the official "buissines" by nations like America or the Philipines, but in privat statements (for example at this board ). The point is over and over the way who religous fellows of churches a.s.o. argue: "it's a very perso- nell thing" or " The church should be isolated from politics" et cetera et cetra. And neither religious- nor "non- religious" parts of mankind can be sure if there's something following behind- so this should be a reason for those who feel able to confirm to their beliefs to live their religous life in the present instead of beeing based of the possibility that their is a God who judges and who'll become "mercifull" to those con- demned whose "soul was lost" while on earth. Nobody did see a God and nobody who died came back to show us his report from heavan or nirvana. This makes me carefull to spent too much attention in any religions. (Please, as you know, this is not an insult against christians but moreover my doubt of religion concerning to Capital Punishment). Last aspect: You've mentioned that there's a difference between "mind and soul" in your personal oppinion. Where is the frontier or border crossing? Or is this boundless? "Body&soul" are a unit in my opinion and refering to our dispute we discussed the influence of your "soul" (wich appears to me equal to your "mind", if you confess to a Church or so ). Your selfmotivations might have its roots inside your clear mind but if I would regard a christian, he would declare that his power and energy would came from his soul "because God gives the power" to him. So this aspect is very difficult to determine exactly. I guess all churches should agree about their opinion to Capital Punishment without exception. And this is utopic. That's the problem. So my suggestions would be for those who believe into a God: say alltogether "YES" or alltogether "NO" to the death penalty instead of "Yes, BUT" or the opposite. Jochen
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Post by TexasLady on Jan 14, 2004 11:37:49 GMT -6
That is only if she's found guilty. If she pleads Post Adoption Depression, she could walk.
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Post by TexasLady on Jan 14, 2004 11:38:46 GMT -6
The minimum she faces is 30 for aggravated battery to a child. That is with out the 1st degree murder charges manditory LWOP. This all happen about 15 minutes from where I grew up. It was all over the news. At least Cook county has a record of being tough on child abusers. Oops, above message is in response to this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2004 12:07:56 GMT -6
I know what you mean.... luckily the area where she lives is a very conservative well to do area. I dont see them buying a "post adoption" anything. A few years ago a woman named Marilyn Lemak stabbed her 3 kids to death because she was upset her ex husband was remarrying. She tried to use some stupid "im crazy because...." defense. Thank God it didn't work but she got off easy with LWOP.
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Post by Donnie on Feb 6, 2004 5:47:30 GMT -6
The murderer is usually a "lost soul" when he steps onto death row. In many cases when he faces imminent death by execution, he rehabilitates himself spritually and thus the DP helps to save souls. After... death, the DR-offender is a "lost soul".
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Post by thecoyote on Apr 24, 2004 17:28:31 GMT -6
Walter Bell Received TDCJ 07/18/1974 Slightly less then 30 years under sentence of death
Gary Alvord Received FDC 04/09/1974 30 years 15 days under sentence of death
And we ask WHY the DP isn't a deterrent? these guys seem to have fallen through the cracks. Bell has been on Death Row so long that he has a 3 digit DR number in Texas
The Coyote
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Post by Donnie on May 25, 2004 21:26:51 GMT -6
The main message out of all those sections are accomplished: "Love your enemy like you love yourself" " Who isn't guilty to be able to throw the first stone?" " mercy" . ..et cetera. Again my question: why do christians not live their beliefs and go on to work it out ( mercy, clemency, loving their enemies like they love themselves) each day rebirthed as their bible want's them to do so? Jochen Actually the main message of Christianity is to love God and do as He says. He says, "Execute murderers." He never changed that command. In fact He had Jesus reiterate it, just in case we started to forgot. That is because a murder victim cannot love his enemy or show mercy to his enemy. Of course, the state still shows murderers considerably more mercy than the murderers show their victims. "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" (if that phrase was ever actually uttered) was respecting adultery, not murder. So, unlike Islamic states, we don't execute adulterers, just in case. That discussion would also have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to eliminate God's earlier command to execute murderers. But He said not a word about it. Same thing when the thief on the cross next to him stated that it was just for him to be executed for stealing. But again, the subject wasn't touched. As for loving one's enemy's as I love myself. If I murdered, I would expect to be executed. So I extend the same opportunity to those who do murder.
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