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Post by RED on Feb 15, 2009 11:29:37 GMT -6
On another thread Wonder Woman stated the following:
"My point isn't really about anyone specific (though I could name some names), but rather about the bleating that goes on (not only here, and not by all) about support for DP being about 'support' for MVS and 'justice' for murder victims. Use of DP isn't (and shouldn't be) about either thing in a society that doesn't dole it consistently for ALL murder victims or according to what MVS (each of them) want."
In response to that, I’ll say this: You're ABSOLUTELY right, Lynne. The good lord knows that when it comes to the issue of the death penalty I don't agree much with my anti-counterparts. However, I've always agreed that the death penalty is not about and/or for MVS or victims. Even more, it shouldn't be about them.
First of all, society punishes crimes because they go contrary to the very guidelines we have established to maintain an adequate level of order. A single violation of those guidelines, in and of itself, is enough to trigger societal punishment in response. Now, there's no doubt that crimes don't happen in a vacuum. Although they are a slap in the face of a whole city, state or nation, those who directly suffer crimes, as well as their loved ones, bear the brunt of their consequences. Still, the reason why we punish criminals is because they committed crimes and not necessarily because someone ended up as a victim of those crimes.
To allow victims or MVS (in cases of murder), to determine whether we should punish a criminal actor and, if we are to impose punishment, how to punish him/her, is a dereliction of our duty to make these types of decisions on behalf of a society of laws. There's no doubt that we should give great consideration to the wishes of those that have been directly affected by crimes. That obviously includes MVS. But to argue that the reason why should execute murders is because of support for victim A or MVS B is not accurate, realistic or even desirable. MVS A and MVS B could have very different opinions about the punishment that the murderer of their loved one should face. The same is true for the victims.
At one point we decided that murder was an act serious enough that the murderer could forfeit his life for it. We debated whether capital punishment was good public policy. The majority of states, the federal government and our armed forces agreed it was. On the other hand, some states have decided is not good public policy. That is regardless of victims or MVS. That's what those societies decided was best for them.
Lynne is right. The death penalty, or a lack thereof in a state or country, has NOTHING to do with supporting (or not supporting) victims or MVS. We kill some murderers because a MAJORITY of us has decided is right. If tomorrow that same majority decides is wrong, victims or MVS will still be there and our arguments supporting or opposing the death penalty won't change.
Love, RED
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jbpro
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Post by jbpro on Feb 15, 2009 11:43:19 GMT -6
On another thread Wonder Woman stated the following: "My point isn't really about anyone specific (though I could name some names), but rather about the bleating that goes on (not only here, and not by all) about support for DP being about 'support' for MVS and 'justice' for murder victims. Use of DP isn't (and shouldn't be) about either thing in a society that doesn't dole it consistently for ALL murder victims or according to what MVS (each of them) want." In response to that, I’ll say this: You're ABSOLUTELY right, Lynne. The good lord knows that when it comes to the issue of the death penalty I don't agree much with my anti-counterparts. However, I've always agreed that the death penalty is not about and/or for MVS or victims. Even more, it shouldn't be about them. First of all, society punishes crimes because they go contrary to the very guidelines we have established to maintain an adequate level of order. A single violation of those guidelines, in and of itself, is enough to trigger societal punishment in response. Now, there's no doubt that crimes don't happen in a vacuum. Although they are a slap in the face of a whole city, state or nation, those who directly suffer crimes, as well as their loved ones, bear the brunt of their consequences. Still, the reason why we punish criminals is because they committed crimes and not necessarily because someone ended up as a victim of those crimes. To allow victims or MVS (in cases of murder), to determine whether we should punish a criminal actor and, if we are to impose punishment, how to punish him/her, is a dereliction of our duty to make these types of decisions on behalf of a society of laws. There's no doubt that we should give great consideration to the wishes of those that have been directly affected by crimes. That obviously includes MVS. But to argue that the reason why should execute murders is because of support for victim A or MVS B is not accurate, realistic or even desirable. MVS A and MVS B could have very different opinions about the punishment that the murderer of their loved one should face. The same is true for the victims. At one point we decided that murder was an act serious enough that the murderer could forfeit his life for it. We debated whether capital punishment was good public policy. The majority of states, the federal government and our armed forces agreed it was. On the other hand, some states have decided is not good public policy. That is regardless of victims or MVS. That's what those societies decided was best for them. Lynne is right. The death penalty, or a lack thereof in a state or country, has NOTHING to do with supporting (or not supporting) victims or MVS. We kill some murderers because a MAJORITY of us has decided is right. If tomorrow that same majority decides is wrong, victims or MVS will still be there and our arguments supporting or opposing the death penalty won't change. Love, RED Well if it makes me feel better about it, then thats a plus to me.
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Post by RED on Feb 15, 2009 11:54:24 GMT -6
Well, whether a murderer's execution brings closure to an MVS is a totally subjective thing. For many it does. For some it doesn't. But I think Lynne's point is that the reason why we have the DP on the books has nothing to do with supporting MVS. That's hard to argue with. Love, RED On another thread Wonder Woman stated the following: "My point isn't really about anyone specific (though I could name some names), but rather about the bleating that goes on (not only here, and not by all) about support for DP being about 'support' for MVS and 'justice' for murder victims. Use of DP isn't (and shouldn't be) about either thing in a society that doesn't dole it consistently for ALL murder victims or according to what MVS (each of them) want." In response to that, I’ll say this: You're ABSOLUTELY right, Lynne. The good lord knows that when it comes to the issue of the death penalty I don't agree much with my anti-counterparts. However, I've always agreed that the death penalty is not about and/or for MVS or victims. Even more, it shouldn't be about them. First of all, society punishes crimes because they go contrary to the very guidelines we have established to maintain an adequate level of order. A single violation of those guidelines, in and of itself, is enough to trigger societal punishment in response. Now, there's no doubt that crimes don't happen in a vacuum. Although they are a slap in the face of a whole city, state or nation, those who directly suffer crimes, as well as their loved ones, bear the brunt of their consequences. Still, the reason why we punish criminals is because they committed crimes and not necessarily because someone ended up as a victim of those crimes. To allow victims or MVS (in cases of murder), to determine whether we should punish a criminal actor and, if we are to impose punishment, how to punish him/her, is a dereliction of our duty to make these types of decisions on behalf of a society of laws. There's no doubt that we should give great consideration to the wishes of those that have been directly affected by crimes. That obviously includes MVS. But to argue that the reason why should execute murders is because of support for victim A or MVS B is not accurate, realistic or even desirable. MVS A and MVS B could have very different opinions about the punishment that the murderer of their loved one should face. The same is true for the victims. At one point we decided that murder was an act serious enough that the murderer could forfeit his life for it. We debated whether capital punishment was good public policy. The majority of states, the federal government and our armed forces agreed it was. On the other hand, some states have decided is not good public policy. That is regardless of victims or MVS. That's what those societies decided was best for them. Lynne is right. The death penalty, or a lack thereof in a state or country, has NOTHING to do with supporting (or not supporting) victims or MVS. We kill some murderers because a MAJORITY of us has decided is right. If tomorrow that same majority decides is wrong, victims or MVS will still be there and our arguments supporting or opposing the death penalty won't change. Love, RED Well if it makes me feel better about it, then thats a plus to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 12:17:36 GMT -6
Well, whether a murderer's execution brings closure to an MVS is a totally subjective thing. For many it does. For some it doesn't. But I think Lynne's point is that the reason why we have the DP on the books has nothing to do with supporting MVS. That's hard to argue with. Love, RED The case was decided in a court of law about 25 years ago, for all the right reasons. To me it was the delays for reasons that would not have been exculpatory anyway that was the injustice - harmful to our society as a whole that the justice was delayed and made more costly for no reason, and harmful to those involved as well.
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Post by RED on Feb 15, 2009 12:22:42 GMT -6
No doubt you're 100% correct, which makes Lynne's point. If support to MVS through closure is what the DP were about, that butcher would have been gone years and years ago. But again, supporting MVS is not why the DP is on the books. Love, RED Well, whether a murderer's execution brings closure to an MVS is a totally subjective thing. For many it does. For some it doesn't. But I think Lynne's point is that the reason why we have the DP on the books has nothing to do with supporting MVS. That's hard to argue with. Love, RED The case was decided in a court of law about 25 years ago, for all the right reasons. To me it was the delays for reasons that would not have been exculpatory anyway that was the injustice - harmful to our society as a whole that the justice was delayed and made more costly for no reason, and harmful to those involved as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 12:39:48 GMT -6
No doubt you're 100% correct, which makes Lynne's point. If support to MVS through closure is what the DP were about, that butcher would have been gone years and years ago. But again, supporting MVS is not why the DP is on the books. Love, RED The case was decided in a court of law about 25 years ago, for all the right reasons. To me it was the delays for reasons that would not have been exculpatory anyway that was the injustice - harmful to our society as a whole that the justice was delayed and made more costly for no reason, and harmful to those involved as well. Why is any penalty on the books, except as a reflection of what the people feel is the appropriate and proportional punishment for that crime as expressed through their legislators (if the legislators have been listening)? Educate me.
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Post by RED on Feb 15, 2009 12:43:30 GMT -6
Nothing to educate you here. You have stated the VERY reason why the DP is on the books. Love, RED No doubt you're 100% correct, which makes Lynne's point. If support to MVS through closure is what the DP were about, that butcher would have been gone years and years ago. But again, supporting MVS is not why the DP is on the books. Love, RED Why is any penalty on the books, except as a reflection of what the people feel is the appropriate and proportional punishment for that crime as expressed through their legislators (if the legislators have been listening)? Educate me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 12:51:57 GMT -6
Nothing to educate you here. You have stated the VERY reason why the DP is on the books. Love, RED Why is any penalty on the books, except as a reflection of what the people feel is the appropriate and proportional punishment for that crime as expressed through their legislators (if the legislators have been listening)? Educate me. Then to me at least, people could have the feelings they want to about it, and express them, because the law would have to hold up to constitutional muster. And that is what would determine if it could be carried out or not.
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Post by RED on Feb 15, 2009 13:22:01 GMT -6
Again, you're 100% right. Nothing to educate you here. You have stated the VERY reason why the DP is on the books. Love, RED Then to me at least, people could have the feelings they want to about it, and express them, because the law would have to hold up to constitutional muster. And that is what would determine if it could be carried out or not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 13:30:47 GMT -6
Again, you're 100% right. Then to me at least, people could have the feelings they want to about it, and express them, because the law would have to hold up to constitutional muster. And that is what would determine if it could be carried out or not. Thank you for helping me to put it into words. Welcome back, RED
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Post by RED on Feb 15, 2009 13:32:04 GMT -6
Happy to be back and very, very happy for you. Love, RED Again, you're 100% right. Thank you for helping me to put it into words. Welcome back, RED
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 14:00:33 GMT -6
Happy to be back and very, very happy for you. Love, RED Thank you for helping me to put it into words. Welcome back, RED Thank you
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 16:42:26 GMT -6
Nothing to educate you here. You have stated the VERY reason why the DP is on the books. Love, RED Then to me at least, people could have the feelings they want to about it, and express them, because the law would have to hold up to constitutional muster. And that is what would determine if it could be carried out or not. Agree 100%. And, also with what RED has said Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Where the problem (leastways for me) comes in (on these boards) is those people (posts) that say they (personally) support the death penalty FOR MVS sake (blathering on about closure, and what MVS 'deserve', etc), yet obviously (from other posts) they don't necessarily support DP in all instances of murder (except where the MVS doesn't want it), so their support of DP isn't really about MVS ~ unless they are then saying most MVS don't deserve the same things those MVS (who can hope for death) do. Therefore, IMO, those MVS (who can hope for it) are just a real good way to throw out a final word that can't be argued against by those who don't support DP in any instance.
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jbpro
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Posts: 294
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Post by jbpro on Feb 15, 2009 16:54:33 GMT -6
Nothing to educate you here. You have stated the VERY reason why the DP is on the books. Love, RED Then to me at least, people could have the feelings they want to about it, and express them, because the law would have to hold up to constitutional muster. And that is what would determine if it could be carried out or not. yea, what Janet said. I could't find the right words either.
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Post by somebody on Mar 6, 2009 18:25:18 GMT -6
On another thread Wonder Woman stated the following: "My point isn't really about anyone specific (though I could name some names), but rather about the bleating that goes on (not only here, and not by all) about support for DP being about 'support' for MVS and 'justice' for murder victims. Use of DP isn't (and shouldn't be) about either thing in a society that doesn't dole it consistently for ALL murder victims or according to what MVS (each of them) want." In response to that, I’ll say this: You're ABSOLUTELY right, Lynne. The good lord knows that when it comes to the issue of the death penalty I don't agree much with my anti-counterparts. However, I've always agreed that the death penalty is not about and/or for MVS or victims. Even more, it shouldn't be about them. First of all, society punishes crimes because they go contrary to the very guidelines we have established to maintain an adequate level of order. A single violation of those guidelines, in and of itself, is enough to trigger societal punishment in response. Now, there's no doubt that crimes don't happen in a vacuum. Although they are a slap in the face of a whole city, state or nation, those who directly suffer crimes, as well as their loved ones, bear the brunt of their consequences. Still, the reason why we punish criminals is because they committed crimes and not necessarily because someone ended up as a victim of those crimes. To allow victims or MVS (in cases of murder), to determine whether we should punish a criminal actor and, if we are to impose punishment, how to punish him/her, is a dereliction of our duty to make these types of decisions on behalf of a society of laws. There's no doubt that we should give great consideration to the wishes of those that have been directly affected by crimes. That obviously includes MVS. But to argue that the reason why should execute murders is because of support for victim A or MVS B is not accurate, realistic or even desirable. MVS A and MVS B could have very different opinions about the punishment that the murderer of their loved one should face. The same is true for the victims. At one point we decided that murder was an act serious enough that the murderer could forfeit his life for it. We debated whether capital punishment was good public policy. The majority of states, the federal government and our armed forces agreed it was. On the other hand, some states have decided is not good public policy. That is regardless of victims or MVS. That's what those societies decided was best for them. Lynne is right. The death penalty, or a lack thereof in a state or country, has NOTHING to do with supporting (or not supporting) victims or MVS. We kill some murderers because a MAJORITY of us has decided is right. If tomorrow that same majority decides is wrong, victims or MVS will still be there and our arguments supporting or opposing the death penalty won't change. Love, RED I think that this is a bright explanation.... thank you for putting this in words! I think you found the words to explain that, although everybody understands that some MVS might want to kill the murderer of their loved one even personally if they have the chance, it is still up to society and the lawsystem to decide which punishment is the right one for this murderer.
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Post by gman on Mar 6, 2009 19:52:33 GMT -6
Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Where the problem (leastways for me) comes in (on these boards) is those people (posts) that say they (personally) support the death penalty FOR MVS sake (blathering on about closure, and what MVS 'deserve', etc), yet obviously (from other posts) they don't necessarily support DP in all instances of murder (except where the MVS doesn't want it), so their support of DP isn't really about MVS ~ unless they are then saying most MVS don't deserve the same things those MVS (who can hope for death) do. Therefore, IMO, those MVS (who can hope for it) are just a real good way to throw out a final word that can't be argued against by those who don't support DP in any instance. I think you bracketed that argument well ...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2009 19:52:40 GMT -6
Let's not all forget that without the victims or the MVSs that there wouldn't be any of those juicy murder novels, whodunit movies, tv shows, no Bill Curtis, Nancy Grace, all the other idiots that make oh so much money off of others' misery. This board wouldn't even exist for many of your entertainment pleasures. Let's not forget how murder is so highly entertaining.
Without the victims scumpals wouldn't have the great romantic loves of their live. Do gooders couldn't show the world just how compassionate they are by fighting for their very special murdering POS and writing them for decades.
There are so many that love having the victim there because it actually gives them something to do with otherwise boring pathetic lives. They just wish so much that MVSs would behave themselves and let them handle everything and that we should be oh so grateful for all the good work they do for us or don't do for us, depending if our loved one was protrayed sympathetic enough in the media.
Of course, for all of the entertainment some of you get out it, you should remember the suffering that the many many many many victims have had to endure and the MVSs that now have a life sentence. That means forever in case some of you don't get it.
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