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Post by bernard on Nov 5, 2018 11:54:12 GMT -6
Wait. Make your mind up. Do you think that innocents never get executed because muh DNA, or do you agree with Joe that the fact that innocents have been executed is "beyond dispute" and something "we all accept"? We all accept murdering, just on different issues,levels. We just use nice cozy little words,excuses for it. Pick & choose. I agree with Joe. Exposing hypocrisy. I have no idea what you just said. I repeat. You agreed with Joe that innocents get executed. He said it was something that's beyond dispute and which we all accept. Then you seemed to suggest that innocents don't get executed after all, and that the chances of that ever happening are slim to none. I'd just like you to pick one viewpoint so I can understand where you are coming from. |
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Post by bernard on Nov 5, 2018 11:59:28 GMT -6
exactly right. DNA can do a good job of putting you on scene,(along with every emt, cop, detective, and assorted first responders, and the paper boy ect.) but may or may not prove much else. by the same token absence of recovered DNA also does not mean you were not on scene or are innocent. however in todays world it will usually raise the "reasonable doubt" necessary for acquittal or exoneration. it's just another tool or piece of the puzzle that I think we take too seriously. this is one reason that, in general, I prefer fingerprints to DNA. I am also convinced that one day something else will come into play that will question all DNA convictions. Security cameras have also played a major role today. This is an interesting one. I would certainly feel a lot more reassured if the person to be executed was on security camera committing the murder. But I don't think that's very common. |
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Post by bernard on Nov 5, 2018 12:07:37 GMT -6
DNA fingerprinting has revolutionised criminal investigations as an incredible tool for identifying the guilty as well as the ( innocent) today. Why won't you Bernard except that scientific fact? DNA isn't like magical dust that sticks to the innocent like glue but sheds itself from the guilty just when they're committing murder. You shed DNA everywhere you go, and whatever you might be doing. Consequently, DNA puts you there. It doesn't prove you did it. In some contexts, it can be very telling. Your DNA under the victim's fingernails suggests that she scratched you. How do you explain that? Your DNA in the victim's body suggests sexual contact. Was it consensual? Please explain. So DNA can be useful, no doubt. But there isn't a gene for "I did it". Where are you going with this? |
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Post by hawg on Nov 5, 2018 21:13:34 GMT -6
Security cameras have also played a major role today. I would certainly feel a lot more reassured if the person to be executed was on security camera committing the murder. I don't know, I've seen some incredibly poor security camera footage. 2 dimensional, wrong angles, too high, too low, too grainy, too blurry....I've always been amazed that we can talk to a man on the moon but we can't take a decent atm or bank photo nor order a hamburger in an understandable fashion. |
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 6, 2018 12:09:10 GMT -6
I would certainly feel a lot more reassured if the person to be executed was on security camera committing the murder. I don't know, I've seen some incredibly poor security camera footage. 2 dimensional, wrong angles, too high, too low, too grainy, too blurry....I've always been amazed that we can talk to a man on the moon but we can't take a decent atm or bank photo nor order a hamburger in an understandable fashion. Snippet shots from a cell phone that may be true wrong angles( not always though. But, Security camera's & private surveillance camera's too, are catching more criminals. A slam dunk . |
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Post by bernard on Nov 7, 2018 11:15:24 GMT -6
I don't know, I've seen some incredibly poor security camera footage. 2 dimensional, wrong angles, too high, too low, too grainy, too blurry....I've always been amazed that we can talk to a man on the moon but we can't take a decent atm or bank photo nor order a hamburger in an understandable fashion. Snippet shots from a cell phone that may be true wrong angles( not always though. But, Security camera's & private surveillance camera's too, are catching more criminals. A slam dunk . Say, are you giving me the fugly shoulder? |
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Post by hawg on Nov 7, 2018 11:46:55 GMT -6
I don't know, I've seen some incredibly poor security camera footage. 2 dimensional, wrong angles, too high, too low, too grainy, too blurry....I've always been amazed that we can talk to a man on the moon but we can't take a decent atm or bank photo nor order a hamburger in an understandable fashion. Snippet shots from a cell phone that may be true wrong angles( not always though. But, Security camera's & private surveillance camera's too, are catching more criminals. A slam dunk . far from a slam dunk. these photos can be useful in a prosecution "IF AND WHEN" the suspect is arrested. but since these photos don't come with an address and name tattooed on the suspects forehead they are typically of little use in a finding or identifying the suspect. occasionally a photo placed in a paper locally may generate someone who knows the person but it's still far from a slam dunk. just another piece of the puzzle. he!!, even a confession requires corroboration. |
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 7, 2018 12:35:16 GMT -6
Snippet shots from a cell phone that may be true wrong angles( not always though. But, Security camera's & private surveillance camera's too, are catching more criminals. A slam dunk . far from a slam dunk. these photos can be useful in a prosecution "IF AND WHEN" the suspect is arrested. but since these photos don't come with an address and name tattooed on the suspects forehead they are typically of little use in a finding or identifying the suspect. occasionally a photo placed in a paper locally may generate someone who knows the person but it's still far from a slam dunk. just another piece of the puzzle. he!!, even a confession requires corroboration. We must live in different worlds, many criminals caught in the act thanks to camera's here. Watch them actually murder or attempt to murder store clerks, witness's while eating held up, the list goes on. Like being on candid camera. If so useless why are the police wearing body camera's? |
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Post by hawg on Nov 7, 2018 13:05:27 GMT -6
far from a slam dunk. these photos can be useful in a prosecution "IF AND WHEN" the suspect is arrested. but since these photos don't come with an address and name tattooed on the suspects forehead they are typically of little use in a finding or identifying the suspect. occasionally a photo placed in a paper locally may generate someone who knows the person but it's still far from a slam dunk. just another piece of the puzzle. he!!, even a confession requires corroboration. We must live in different worlds, many criminals caught in the act thanks to camera's here. Watch them actually murder or attempt to murder store clerks, witness's while eating held up, the list goes on. Like being on candid camera. If so useless why are the police wearing body camera's? well the difference in the amount of cameras between my area and yours may well be a factor. I've still seen plenty of security footage, it's usually not that great. rather than "caught" they are "recorded" by cameras, their identity or whereabouts is still NOT visible on camera. but "when" caught cameras may of course be helpful for the prosecution. cops wear body cameras for one reason, and one reason only. to protect them against false accusations.. anything beyond that is gravy. |
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 7, 2018 13:20:13 GMT -6
We must live in different worlds, many criminals caught in the act thanks to camera's here. Watch them actually murder or attempt to murder store clerks, witness's while eating held up, the list goes on. Like being on candid camera. If so useless why are the police wearing body camera's? well the difference in the amount of cameras between my area and yours may well be a factor. I've still seen plenty of security footage, it's usually not that great. rather than "caught" they are "recorded" by cameras, their identity or whereabouts is still NOT visible on camera. but "when" caught cameras may of course be helpful for the prosecution. cops wear body cameras for one reason, and one reason only. to protect them against false accusations.. anything beyond that is gravy. Here the police already know them, be it gang members or repeat offenders, someone recognizes them etc. Normally they live in this city. Police camera's do a good job on false accusations too. |
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 13, 2018 13:10:05 GMT -6
A few day's ago here two men robbing a store shot the man working the night shift point blank in the face, of course he died. The now widow just hours after this happened was on the news saying she does not hate ( whoever they are who did this), & stated she forgives them.
No, hate does just eats one alive, BUT forgiveness?
Over what may or not not be a racist comment or word, they are never forgiven & have everything taken from them, even some go so far as death threats. What a strange world it has become. No apologies accepted. Seems people are offended over everything but not murder.
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 14, 2018 8:22:56 GMT -6
Robert Ramas will be executed tonight in Huntsville, TX. For killing his wife & two kids. 100% effective.
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Post by hawg on Nov 14, 2018 11:56:35 GMT -6
Robert Ramas will be executed tonight in Huntsville, TX. For killing his wife & two kids. 100% effective. appeal THAT, a-hole. |
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Post by bernard on Nov 14, 2018 16:24:44 GMT -6
Over what may or not not be a racist comment or word, they are never forgiven & have everything taken from them, even some go so far as death threats. What a strange world it has become. No apologies accepted. Seems people are offended over everything but not murder. People's priorities do seem odd, but it is nothing new. It's just like the way people used to pass no comment on murder, but go nuts over a blasphemous film or some boobies on the TV. Screaming about racism is just the modern equivalent of wrapping yourself in the flag or holding up a bible. It's just an easy way for folks to advertise that they are upright and reputable, whether or not they are. Politicians, especially, love to cover themselves with the trappings of piety, and calling your opponents racists is just the replacement for calling them godless communists. It scores you a cheap political advantage without you having to promise anything to the voters, let alone fulfill the promises you made. To paraphrase Bon Jovi, the name-calling's the same, only the names change. |
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 15, 2018 10:12:51 GMT -6
Robert Ramas will be executed tonight in Huntsville, TX. For killing his wife & two kids. 100% effective. appeal THAT, a-hole. It was 100% effective, last night. |
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 15, 2018 10:14:10 GMT -6
Over what may or not not be a racist comment or word, they are never forgiven & have everything taken from them, even some go so far as death threats. What a strange world it has become. No apologies accepted. Seems people are offended over everything but not murder. People's priorities do seem odd, but it is nothing new. It's just like the way people used to pass no comment on murder, but go nuts over a blasphemous film or some boobies on the TV. Screaming about racism is just the modern equivalent of wrapping yourself in the flag or holding up a bible. It's just an easy way for folks to advertise that they are upright and reputable, whether or not they are. Politicians, especially, love to cover themselves with the trappings of piety, and calling your opponents racists is just the replacement for calling them godless communists. It scores you a cheap political advantage without you having to promise anything to the voters, let alone fulfill the promises you made. To paraphrase Bon Jovi, the name-calling's the same, only the names change. Sadly, so true. |
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 7:52:56 GMT -6
You trust the people of this nation with the calm emotionless discretion and sober powers of reckoning required to make the decision to kill a man? Have you seen how they leap to judgments of guilt? . Yep, they do quite a good job at getting it right. And I do not see much leaping, but do see a lot of careful deliberations, as the results reflect. Don't know what your seeing. |
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 8:25:48 GMT -6
[/quote]Capital punishment has never been about deterrence, since 95+ percent of murderers get paroled.[/quote]
Deterrence and other protections are expected and realized outcomes of sanction.
But sanction is based within justice.
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 8:27:56 GMT -6
[/quote]Can't prove, it may be a deterrent for some to not murder to begin with, knowing they may face a DP sentence. I would bet it has stopped some.[/quote]
Deterrence for serious sanctions and serious negative incentives have never been negated nor can they be.
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 8:33:59 GMT -6
Innocents are much more protected with the death penalty/executions than without them.
The most recent cases of innocent executed seems to be in 1915, the Griffin brothers in South Carolina.
Since 1973, about 21,000 innocents have been murdered by those known murderers that we have allowed to murder, again - recidivist murderers.
The death penalty/executions, protect innocents, in three ways, better than LWOP - enhanced due process, enhanced incapacitation and enhanced deterrence.
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 8:38:10 GMT -6
So I'm getting the feeling that if we can't/don't have a 100%, foolproof, error proof, judicial system, why have one at all? Criminal justice is societal defense. Without it, we have anarchy. If your standard is perfection, all human endeavors would cease. For all violent crimes, the actual exoneration/ no connection to the crime rate is in the range of 0.016%–0.062%. A reasonable (and possibly overstated) calculation of the wrongful conviction rate appears, tentatively, to be somewhere in the range of c— a range that comfortably embraces Justice Scalia’s often criticized figure. Based on a careful review of the available empirical literature, it is possible to assemble the component parts of a wrongful conviction rate calculation by looking at error rates at trial, the ratio of wrongful convictions obtained through trials versus plea bargains, and the percentage of cases resolved through pleas. Combining empirically based estimates for each of these three factors results in that 0.016%–0.062% range. as per Overstating America's Wrongful Conviction Rate? Reassessing the Conventional Wisdom About the Prevalence of Wrongful Convictions (2018), Cassell, Paul G., 60 Ariz. L. Rev. 815 (2018); University of Utah College of Law Research Paper No. 291. Available at SSRN: ssrn.com/abstract=3276185 or dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3276185 |
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 8:52:33 GMT -6
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Post by dudleysharp on Sept 3, 2019 9:08:46 GMT -6
As for me, I can't get away from how many people have been released from the row by the Innocence Project and other like minded folk. Unless the business of exonerating DR inmates is the first and only endeavor that humans have ever perfected, these folks can't possibly be batting a perfect score. Even if they are doing pretty well, they will sometimes exonerate the guilty, and fail to exonerate the innocent. And that means there are innocents who end up executed. It's a simple consequence of human imperfection. You must fact check/vet. Deception: The DPIC "Exonerated"/"Innocence" List prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2019/09/deception-dpic-exoneratedinnocence-list.html |
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Post by bernard on Sept 7, 2019 13:30:44 GMT -6
You trust the people of this nation with the calm emotionless discretion and sober powers of reckoning required to make the decision to kill a man? Have you seen how they leap to judgments of guilt? . Yep, they do quite a good job at getting it right. And I do not see much leaping, If you never see people leaping to judgments of guilt, there's a website called "Twitter" you should check out. How do you check what proportion of results were right? |
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Post by bernard on Sept 7, 2019 13:52:01 GMT -6
As for me, I can't get away from how many people have been released from the row by the Innocence Project and other like minded folk. Unless the business of exonerating DR inmates is the first and only endeavor that humans have ever perfected, these folks can't possibly be batting a perfect score. Even if they are doing pretty well, they will sometimes exonerate the guilty, and fail to exonerate the innocent. And that means there are innocents who end up executed. It's a simple consequence of human imperfection. You must fact check/vet. Are you asking me to fact check the claim that human beings are imperfect? That's the only factual claim I made. The jurors are drawn from the same population as the murderers, rapists, pimps and pedophiles. Jurors gamble and smoke, drink too much, get high, beat their spouses, drive while intoxicated, marry violent as5holes, have unprotected sex (with strangers), abandon their kids, never exercise, gorge on junk food, sexualize their kids for drag shows, run up their credit cards and declare chapter 7. But you expect good decisions once they're in the jury room? |
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Post by oslooskar on Sept 9, 2019 9:48:34 GMT -6
Screaming about racism is just the modern equivalent of wrapping yourself in the flag or holding up a bible. It's just an easy way for folks to advertise that they are upright and reputable, whether or not they are. Politicians, especially, love to cover themselves with the trappings of piety, and calling your opponents racists is just the replacement for calling them godless communists. It scores you a cheap political advantage without you having to promise anything to the voters, let alone fulfill the promises you made. Not bad! Do you mind if I use those lines on facebook when I'm engaged in a heated political discussion? |
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Post by hawg on Sept 9, 2019 11:14:50 GMT -6
So I'm getting the feeling that if we can't/don't have a 100%, foolproof, error proof, judicial system, why have one at all? If your standard is perfection, all human endeavors would cease. MY standard is not perfection. the pursuit of perfection is from those who want to eliminate things such as DP, misnomered assault rifles or guns in general, or anything they don't like (as long as banning such doesn't affect them). but they like this pursuit of the unattainable because it perpetually allows them to continue to chip away at "our" rights, culture, and lifestyles, and especially our freedom to live "our" lives "our" way. |
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Post by hawg on Sept 9, 2019 11:17:00 GMT -6
As for me, I can't get away from how many people have been released from the row by the Innocence Project and other like minded folk. Unless the business of exonerating DR inmates is the first and only endeavor that humans have ever perfected, these folks can't possibly be batting a perfect score. Even if they are doing pretty well, they will sometimes exonerate the guilty, and fail to exonerate the innocent. And that means there are innocents who end up executed. It's a simple consequence of human imperfection. You must fact check/vet. my biggest problem with "fact checking" is who fact checks the fact checkers and exactly whose facts do we accept? |
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Post by bernard on Sept 10, 2019 18:32:30 GMT -6
Screaming about racism is just the modern equivalent of wrapping yourself in the flag or holding up a bible. It's just an easy way for folks to advertise that they are upright and reputable, whether or not they are. Politicians, especially, love to cover themselves with the trappings of piety, and calling your opponents racists is just the replacement for calling them godless communists. It scores you a cheap political advantage without you having to promise anything to the voters, let alone fulfill the promises you made. Not bad! Do you mind if I use those lines on facebook when I'm engaged in a heated political discussion? Not at all. Quote them, change them, improve on them. |
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