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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 12:10:25 GMT -6
That wasn't part of the comparison. But, you're right, let's use Utah instead. In the last 20 years, Utah has spent $40 million on 165 death eligible cases, resulting in 2 death sentences and 1 execution. So, it's only $40 million to execute 1. couldn't answer the gary gilmore thing, huh? we should tell people THAT is what an execution costs. or can, or should. Why on earth would I (or anyone) use a case over 40 years old to measure costs today? Anyway, Utah did him a favor. He wanted to die.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 12:17:43 GMT -6
blah blah, blah blah blah With the death penalty the obvious goal is to execute murderers. If a state spends millions of dollars and the yield is one execution that's what it cost taxpayers to kill one murderer. When someone buys a gun for self defense, it's his expense, and I'm thinking his goal (in buying the gun) is for self defense, not necessarily to kill someone. Apples and oranges. Oh, and speaking of apples, I spent $2.98 on a bag of 12 apples. They were all bad but one. So, I have one very expensive apple, that really wasn't worth the cost. The bag of oranges I got for $4.23 was a much better deal. Every one of the 12 oranges were delicious, and only cost $ .35 each.
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 13:42:50 GMT -6
couldn't answer the gary gilmore thing, huh? we should tell people THAT is what an execution costs. or can, or should. Why on earth would I (or anyone) use a case over 40 years old to measure costs today? Well that's funny since YOU brought up the study in Cali that included every dp expense since the reintroduction of the death penalty 42 years ago resulting in the price of $4 billion divided by 13 executions for your embarrassing example. As a bean counter who claims costs arent your reason for being anti you sure like to pick choose your beans.
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 13:47:36 GMT -6
Really? THAT'S the math you want to use? So because Californicated refuses to execute anyone you want to make it sound like executions cost 300 million. And there ARE people who will believe that. Tell you what, crunch the numbers on what the state of Utah has spent on gary gilmore since his arrest in the summer of 76 all the way through, say, close of business yesterday. Since you're still fixated on costs, tell me what you think of the Gilmore thrift. The numbers don't lie. At $60,000 a year, more or less, the costs of lifetime incarceration of an inmate amount to maybe $2 million to $3 million. That is pocket change compared to what it costs to prosecute a capital case and follow it through all the way to the federal circuit courts. Every appellant has that right, at taxpayers' expense. Ironically it was the aftermath of the Gary Mark Gilmore case that produced this result. Since he was executed, no inmate is allowed to plead guilty to a capital offense unless execution is off the table. Also, since then, condemned inmates do not have to consent to appeals filed on their behalf. The appeals are filed whether the inmates like it or not. See what happens when you vote Democrat? Ruined a perfectly good functional system. (Don't blow a gasket WW. Just being facetious........mostly)
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 14:06:50 GMT -6
Really? THAT'S the math you want to use? So because Californicated refuses to execute anyone you want to make it sound like executions cost 300 million. And there ARE people who will believe that. Tell you what, crunch the numbers on what the state of Utah has spent on gary gilmore since his arrest in the summer of 76 all the way through, say, close of business yesterday. Since you're still fixated on costs, tell me what you think of the Gilmore thrift. That wasn't part of the comparison. But, you're right, let's use Utah instead. In the last 20 years, Utah has spent $40 million on 165 death eligible cases, resulting in 2 death sentences and 1 execution. So, it's only $40 million to execute 1. Don't know what anti site you're parroting but I ain't buying the numbers. 165 death "eligible" cases is not the same as full blown dp trials. They charge high so they can plead low. I'd be surprised if 10 percent went to jury. So the rest plead in to lesser included and went to prison. Yet you can be sure your anti site included all incarceration costs pending their lesser plea which means the costs were the same as incerceration costs had the lesser charge been the initial. But they want you to think those are dp related for obvious reasons. Figures lie, liers figure. so while dp costs are still unnecessarily high, I'd rather fix the problems where as you just want to scrap it.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 14:09:53 GMT -6
Why on earth would I (or anyone) use a case over 40 years old to measure costs today? Well that's funny since YOU brought up the study in Cali that included every dp expense since the reintroduction of the death penalty 42 years ago resulting in the price of $4 billion divided by 13 executions for your embarrassing example. As a bean counter who claims costs arent your reason for being anti you sure like to pick choose your beans. Now you're just being silly. In figuring costs, you know as well as I do, that one cannot use one execution of someone who wanted to die and ignore all the rest.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 14:22:52 GMT -6
That wasn't part of the comparison. But, you're right, let's use Utah instead. In the last 20 years, Utah has spent $40 million on 165 death eligible cases, resulting in 2 death sentences and 1 execution. So, it's only $40 million to execute 1. Don't know what anti site you're parroting but I ain't buying the numbers. 165 death "eligible" cases is not the same as full blown dp trials. They charge high so they can plead low. I'd be surprised if 10 percent went to jury. So the rest plead in to lesser included and went to prison. Yet you can be sure your anti site included all incarceration costs pending their lesser plea which means the costs were the same as incerceration costs had the lesser charge been the initial. But they want you to think those are dp related for obvious reasons. Figures lie, liers figure. so while dp costs are still unnecessarily high, I'd rather fix the problems where as you just want to scrap it. LOL So, you're saying that they spent $40 million to try 46 DP cases? Yikes. I'll have to go back and redo the math. Nah, not for you, since either way, they spent that to execute 1. It's according to Utah Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice.
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 16:43:17 GMT -6
Don't know what anti site you're parroting but I ain't buying the numbers. 165 death "eligible" cases is not the same as full blown dp trials. They charge high so they can plead low. I'd be surprised if 10 percent went to jury. So the rest plead in to lesser included and went to prison. Yet you can be sure your anti site included all incarceration costs pending their lesser plea which means the costs were the same as incerceration costs had the lesser charge been the initial. But they want you to think those are dp related for obvious reasons. Figures lie, liers figure. so while dp costs are still unnecessarily high, I'd rather fix the problems where as you just want to scrap it. LOL So, you're saying that they spent $40 million to try 46 DP cases? Yikes. I'll have to go back and redo the math. Nah, not for you, since either way, they spent that to execute 1. It's according to Utah Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice. I'm saying that I suspect most of those cases never saw trial at all, just bargaining for a plea, I'm not seeing 40 million there. but if that's what they said......and I said I'd be surprised if 10% went to jury. that would be 16 or 17 cases not 46 so yeah, you better go back and redo the math. I think in my job I'd know about 165 dp trials. hey by the way, do you know who that "one" was? it was ronnie lee gardiner in 2010. know what he did? he killed while in prison custody during a court transport. you know who didn't kill during that court transport? you're right, gary gilmore. wonder why? good thing prison prevents killing. but then you'll see more of that when life in prison is the only option.
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 16:48:05 GMT -6
Well that's funny since YOU brought up the study in Cali that included every dp expense since the reintroduction of the death penalty 42 years ago resulting in the price of $4 billion divided by 13 executions for your embarrassing example. As a bean counter who claims costs arent your reason for being anti you sure like to pick choose your beans. Now you're just being silly. In figuring costs, you know as well as I do, that one cannot use one execution of someone who wanted to die and ignore all the rest. boy, you must be getting tired with all that ducking, dodging and weaving you're doing. You take me to task for a 41 year old execution while YOU use a study dating back 42 years, and then say I'm silly. here, I'll give you a clue about that bs 4 billion execution cost thing. they didn't spend 4 billion to execute 13 people, they spent 4 billion trying NOT to execute all the others. you should be happy.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 17:34:37 GMT -6
LOL So, you're saying that they spent $40 million to try 46 DP cases? Yikes. I'll have to go back and redo the math. Nah, not for you, since either way, they spent that to execute 1. It's according to Utah Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice. I'm saying that I suspect most of those cases never saw trial at all, just bargaining for a plea, I'm not seeing 40 million there. but if that's what they said......and I said I'd be surprised if 10% went to jury. that would be 16 or 17 cases not 46 so yeah, you better go back and redo the math. I think in my job I'd know about 165 dp trials. hey by the way, do you know who that "one" was? it was ronnie lee gardiner in 2010. know what he did? he killed while in prison custody during a court transport. you know who didn't kill during that court transport? you're right, gary gilmore. wonder why? good thing prison prevents killing. but then you'll see more of that when life in prison is the only option. My math was fine. My finger slipped and I didn't check what I'd written. Bad on me. And thank you for pointing out that it was $40 million to try 16 cases going by your guess. Doesn't change the fact they executed 1 murderer for that price. Yes, I'm aware who the murderer was. Something good did come of the murder ~ Utah adopted more stringent security measures as a result of the incident at the courthouse. It's sad they didn't do that before he shot and killed attorney, Michael Burdell, at the courthouse.
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 20:53:00 GMT -6
I'm saying that I suspect most of those cases never saw trial at all, just bargaining for a plea, I'm not seeing 40 million there. but if that's what they said......and I said I'd be surprised if 10% went to jury. that would be 16 or 17 cases not 46 so yeah, you better go back and redo the math. I think in my job I'd know about 165 dp trials. hey by the way, do you know who that "one" was? it was ronnie lee gardiner in 2010. know what he did? he killed while in prison custody during a court transport. you know who didn't kill during that court transport? you're right, gary gilmore. wonder why? good thing prison prevents killing. but then you'll see more of that when life in prison is the only option. My math was fine. My finger slipped and I didn't check what I'd written. Bad on me. And thank you for pointing out that it was $40 million to try 16 cases going by your guess. Doesn't change the fact they executed 1 murderer for that price. Yes, I'm aware who the murderer was. Something good did come of the murder ~ Utah adopted more stringent security measures as a result of the incident at the courthouse. It's sad they didn't do that before he shot and killed attorney, Michael Burdell, at the courthouse. do you suppose you could speculate on how you think that 40 million shakes out? jumpsuits? guards? attorneys fees? dinner for late night jury deliberations? just curious as I can't see 40 mil here.
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Post by hawg on May 16, 2018 22:28:27 GMT -6
couldn't answer the gary gilmore thing, huh? we should tell people THAT is what an execution costs. or can, or should. Why..... use a case over 40 years old to measure costs today? My point exactly, what exactly did Gilmore cost us today?
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Post by josephdphillips on May 17, 2018 8:19:20 GMT -6
do you suppose you could speculate on how you think that 40 million shakes out? jumpsuits? guards? attorneys fees? dinner for late night jury deliberations? just curious as I can't see 40 mil here. I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make. There are no economic arguments in favor of capital punishment because it's the squeamish pro-death penalty folks that have increased the costs. The safety argument also fails, and is disingenuous, anyway. Alleged "pros" are perfectly happy paroling murderers as long as the parolees continue to prey upon blacks and mexicans.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 9:57:15 GMT -6
do you suppose you could speculate on how you think that 40 million shakes out? jumpsuits? guards? attorneys fees? dinner for late night jury deliberations? just curious as I can't see 40 mil here. It's straight from CCJJ, Death Penalty report, pg 9 www.scribd.com/document/371157439/CCJJ-death-penalty-report#from_embedMaybe they each have really neat bouncy houses.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 10:03:43 GMT -6
Why..... use a case over 40 years old to measure costs today? My point exactly, what exactly did Gilmore cost us today? In any time period, or state, Gary Gilmore is a case unto itself, since he WANTED TO DIE. I've read about at least 3 attempted suicides, 2 of them on death row. Too bad his first attempt was faulty, since instead he killed others. **And, why do you suppose we stop people who are sentenced to death from doing us a favor and killing themselves? I never have really understood the rationale for that.
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Post by hawg on May 17, 2018 10:06:44 GMT -6
do you suppose you could speculate on how you think that 40 million shakes out? jumpsuits? guards? attorneys fees? dinner for late night jury deliberations? just curious as I can't see 40 mil here. I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make. There are no economic arguments in favor of capital punishment because it's the squeamish pro-death penalty folks that have increased the costs. The safety argument also fails, and is disingenuous, anyway. Alleged "pros" are perfectly happy paroling murderers as long as the parolees continue to prey upon blacks and mexicans. I bring it up only because in a perfect world there is no reason for the crazy costs quoted today. Yeah, I know it's not going to change. After 34 years in government I'm familiar with budget requests and justifications.
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Post by hawg on May 17, 2018 10:17:09 GMT -6
My point exactly, what exactly did Gilmore cost us today? In any time period, or state, Gary Gilmore is a case unto itself, since he WANTED TO DIE. I've read about at least 3 attempted suicides, 2 of them on death row. Too bad his first attempt was faulty, since instead he killed others. **And, why do you suppose we stop people who are sentenced to death from doing us a favor and killing themselves? I never have really understood the rationale for that. And the question remains. What did Gilmore cost us today? What did dan lafferty cost us today? I see no good reason for the difference. And I have no idea why we try to save suicidal dp inmates. Especially since nothing screams guilty quite like a jailhouse hanging.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 17, 2018 10:18:01 GMT -6
I bring it up only because in a perfect world there is no reason for the crazy costs quoted today. Yeah, I know it's not going to change. After 34 years in government I'm familiar with budget requests and justifications. Notwithstanding bureaucratic waste, there have been measures to streamline the appellate process, but pros have always stood in the way. Get rid of the 8th Amendment and you solve all the problems. Capital punishment can return to what it was intended to be.
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Post by josephdphillips on May 17, 2018 10:20:16 GMT -6
why do you suppose we stop people who are sentenced to death from doing us a favor and killing themselves? I never have really understood the rationale for that. It goes beyond that. The condemned are also entitled to organ transplants. I understand the rationale but don't agree with it.
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Post by hawg on May 17, 2018 10:29:27 GMT -6
I bring it up only because in a perfect world there is no reason for the crazy costs quoted today. Yeah, I know it's not going to change. After 34 years in government I'm familiar with budget requests and justifications. Notwithstanding bureaucratic waste, there have been measures to streamline the appellate process, but pros have always stood in the way. Get rid of the 8th Amendment and you solve all the problems. Capital punishment can return to what it was intended to be. Kind of like republicans are a bigger threat to the republican control of the country than democrats are.
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Post by hawg on May 17, 2018 18:53:54 GMT -6
do you suppose you could speculate on how you think that 40 million shakes out? jumpsuits? guards? attorneys fees? dinner for late night jury deliberations? just curious as I can't see 40 mil here. It's straight from CCJJ, Death Penalty report, pg 9 www.scribd.com/document/371157439/CCJJ-death-penalty-report#from_embedMaybe they each have really neat bouncy houses. I asked you to speculate on costs because i knew you couldn't do it. I can't do it either. and in reading pages 7 through 10 of your uccjj report it's pretty obvious the state of utah couldn't do it either. there were a lot of comments on how hard it is to put together definitive costs. some costs were quoted that were annual state budget costs for defense of already convicted inmates, ect, but mostly they just regurgitated numbers without any any critical break down or "shaking out "or actual origin of costs. and btw I personally know a member of that board. here's the deal, most costs associated with "death eligible" are not even state expenses, they're county. with only two convictions there is very, very little prison costs. because until convicted they are all held in county jails. that's 29 counties btw. in 34 years I never met the guy who contacted all those jails to inquire to the regional costs of breakfast cereal, socks, underwear and the detergent to clean them for "eligible" cases only, just annual budgets with a healthy dose of pro rated, extrapolated, and conbumbilated estimates. I never met the guy who calculates every hour spent by attornys on the phone negotiating deals, or even judges time on the bench. and I can guarantee you nobody called me to inquire as to the costs of me or my detectives in investigating homicides. not once. so these things are pretty much put together by the SWAG factor. here, I'll tell you another government budgeting trick. I worked narcotics throughout the nineties, it was a federal buzzword and as such it rained money on us. after 911 it stopped raining money on narcotics but hurricaned money on anything even remotely tied into homeland security. agencies were getting money for stuff they would have never gotten previously. and once received it wasn't hard to disseminate where ever needed for whatever needed. I got basic detective equipment i could never get before that was useful in ALL cases and perhaps even the rare possible homeland security case. here's another example I didn't see in the uccjj report you posted. in jan 1996 they executed john taylor by firing squad. the prison asked the legislature for (if i remember correctly) 90 thousand purely for the act of executing this guy. they built a metal chair with a receptacle. any high school welding class could have hammered it out in two days. don't see 90 grand. they stacked up some railroad ties and sand bags behind the chair. nope, don't see 90 grand there. they had to build two frame walls in the corner of a warehouse. they didn't even sheath both sides. one had gun ports, one had witness windows. don't see 90 grand there either. (they've since built it in permanent with cinderblock) they gave each rifleman and the one alternate 300 dollars. 1800 dollars is just a bit under 90 grand. throw in some overtime and I still don't see 90 grand. know what I "speculate"? they asked for 90 because the legislature was court bound to put this thing on, but I suspect they really wanted 75-80 thousand for projects they hadn't been able to get funded before. just guessing but that's been my government experience. don't ask me my sources, they are unattainable to you. just call me "Bobby I know a guy". or two or three. so after all that rambling and i'll concede death cases may well cost more, I remain unimpressed with "studies" and google figures. especially when these costs do not have to be higher. your mileage may vary. I believe even your posted uccjj report mentioned how executions held sooner than later would alter life in prison cost comparisons. but again after all our back and forth I'm staying with "doing the right thing" costs money. now the sooner we get 3000 or so inmates on death row kicked off the planet, the sooner all this cost nonsense will go down. 2-3 busy, busy weekends ought to do it.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 20:24:26 GMT -6
now the sooner we get 3000 or so inmates on death row kicked off the planet, the sooner all this cost nonsense will go down. 2-3 busy, busy weekends ought to do it. Yes, let's do that. I guarantee it'll be the death of the death penalty.
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Post by hawg on May 18, 2018 10:23:07 GMT -6
now the sooner we get 3000 or so inmates on death row kicked off the planet, the sooner all this cost nonsense will go down. 2-3 busy, busy weekends ought to do it. Yes, let's do that. I guarantee it'll be the death of the death penalty. might be worth it. then just like the last time, dp will be back. but the 3000+ won't be. I'd risk it, would you?
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Post by josephdphillips on May 18, 2018 11:00:39 GMT -6
might be worth it. then just like the last time dp will be back but the 3000+ won't be. I'd risk it, would you? I certainly would. It's not like there's much to lose. The U.S. supremes have never found any one execution method to be contrary to the federal constitution. We are free to throw them into an open pit and mow them down like so much wheat.
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Post by hawg on May 18, 2018 14:17:28 GMT -6
might be worth it. then just like the last time dp will be back but the 3000+ won't be. I'd risk it, would you? I certainly would. It's not like there's much to lose. The U.S. supremes have never found any one execution method to be contrary to the federal constitution. We are free to throw them into an open pit and mow them down like so much wheat. may i suggest like so many weeds. Wheat actually has value and purpose. Unlike weeds and dp convicts.
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Post by bernard on May 18, 2018 15:04:10 GMT -6
The U.S. supremes have never found any one execution method to be contrary to the federal constitution. It's true that the supremes have not ruled on the constitutionality of every deadly contraption of Joe Phillips' macabre devising. But if someone were sentenced to be Phillipsed, they would take a closer look at your fascinating proposals. Let us know how your idea fares in California, and we'll take it from there.
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Post by supermax on May 20, 2018 11:49:46 GMT -6
How sad is this.... seeing people take philosophical positions, economic positions and political positions - they are overtly moot points - do any of you actually think that your posturing at any level equates to justice ?
To be clear, there is punishment for the commission of crime, there is vengeance for the commission of crime and there is possibility in some cases of rehabilitation for crime ... none of this undoes the crime............. how does one undo capital murder ? That is the question for any anti to actually answer - I am still waiting after many years.
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Post by hawg on May 20, 2018 14:24:07 GMT -6
How sad is this.... seeing people take philosophical positions, economic positions and political positions - they are overtly moot points - do any of you actually think that your posturing at any level equates to justice ? To be clear, there is punishment for the commission of crime, there is vengeance for the commission of crime and there is possibility in some cases of rehabilitation for crime ... none of this undoes the crime............. how does one undo capital murder ? That is the question for any anti to actually answer - I am still waiting after many years. Most crimes can't be "undone". We can "undo" criminals though. Ted Bundy is "undone"
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Post by bernard on May 20, 2018 15:11:34 GMT -6
how does one undo capital murder ? That is the question for any anti to actually answer - I am still waiting after many years. What is the pro's answer to this question?
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Post by whitediamonds on May 20, 2018 15:52:25 GMT -6
how does one undo capital murder ? That is the question for any anti to actually answer - I am still waiting after many years. What is the pro's answer to this question? Well, you can replace, repair, re-condition, but you cannot undo capital murder that is a total loss. Total loss equals a total loss. Next.
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