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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 22, 2018 16:38:00 GMT -6
Anything is possible when evil/hate wants to kill. Like the recent serial bomber. Thing that is in common, all is against the not expecting. As well as soft spots & taking out many fast.
I don't know ..........
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 22, 2018 16:53:19 GMT -6
In my era, there was no need for teachers to have guns or even think of such a thing.
Back then we had child control, no need for gun control.
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Post by hawg on Mar 22, 2018 18:10:51 GMT -6
Arming teachers will make matters worse, IMO. Someone who wants to murder as many people as possible won't be deterred. Rather, he'll be more determined and he'll find a way, and quite possibly with even more death and destruction. Why put fire extinguishers in school? After all, a fire is going to do whatever it feels like. It's their nature. Why expect teachers to fight it? Thats what firefighters are for......whenever they get there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 19:13:39 GMT -6
Arming teachers will make matters worse, IMO. Someone who wants to murder as many people as possible won't be deterred. Rather, he'll be more determined and he'll find a way, and quite possibly with even more death and destruction. Why put fire extinguishers in school? After all, a fire is going to do whatever it feels like. It's their nature. Why expect teachers to fight it? Thats what firefighters are for......whenever they get there. Guess I should have been clearer. Do you really suppose a lunatic who's out to kill a lot of people is going to bother with a gun if the teachers are armed? Nah. He'll do a Mc Veigh. History is an important, though oft forgotten, tool. Fire is fire and is often stopped (or slowed) with fire extinguishers, along with fire detectors and sprinklers. I don't quite understand your comparison. Fire isn't a living, breathing human being who can think up new ways to destroy when thwarted. At present, school is obsolete. We're taking all the fun out of it with budget cuts. and making it about academics only. Any idiot can learn what these kids are getting there at home or online. And, learn more. *crap*, they can learn how to make bombs if they so choose. Sad, really.
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Post by hawg on Mar 22, 2018 20:24:26 GMT -6
they'll just do something "different" so why try? that's your plan?
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Post by bernard on Mar 23, 2018 2:18:33 GMT -6
Arming teachers will make matters worse, IMO. Someone who wants to murder as many people as possible won't be deterred. Rather, he'll be more determined and he'll find a way, and quite possibly with even more death and destruction. What is your evidence for believing this?
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 23, 2018 9:47:11 GMT -6
Arming teachers will make matters worse, IMO. Someone who wants to murder as many people as possible won't be deterred. Rather, he'll be more determined and he'll find a way, and quite possibly with even more death and destruction. Ok, then lets leave schools no guns & add no bombs zone signs to that..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 11:41:49 GMT -6
they'll just do something "different" so why try? that's your plan? If I was in charge, I'd change gun laws. I'd make the age of owning a gun 21. I'd make it mandatory to be vigorously trained in gun safety and use to own a gun. I'd outlaw the sale of semi-automatic weapons like AR-15s.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 11:58:44 GMT -6
Arming teachers will make matters worse, IMO. Someone who wants to murder as many people as possible won't be deterred. Rather, he'll be more determined and he'll find a way, and quite possibly with even more death and destruction. What is your evidence for believing this? History. Human nature. You bring your stick and I'll bring my hand-full of rocks... you send your attack planes, we'll drop an atomic bomb.... Though I must also add that someone packing a semi-automatic has little to fear from someone who has to first access the gun he's going to use, possibly load it, and then get off a shot or two.
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Post by hawg on Mar 23, 2018 16:59:32 GMT -6
they'll just do something "different" so why try? that's your plan? If I was in charge, I'd change gun laws. I'd make the age of owning a gun 21. I'd make it mandatory to be vigorously trained in gun safety and use to own a gun. I'd outlaw the sale of semi-automatic weapons like AR-15s. let's see, age to own at 21, yeah, because NOBODY over 21 has ever committed a mass shooting. (wait, we let 18 year olds go to war and shoot guns, hhmmm) vigorously trained, seems good but cops and soldiers are vigorously trained and they still die. oh wait, do you think you have to be "trained" NOT to commit mass shootings? outlaw AR-15's, you mean like the way we have outlawed and prevented murder in general? you know, we did essentially outlaw and severely restrict full-auto weapons (you do know the difference right?) and today nobody is shooting up schools with them, buuuut schools are still being shot up. and will still be shot up when you outlaw AR-15'S. here's an idea you can get behind. a school district in pennsylvania is now stocking classrooms with rocks to fight school shooters. is it truly possible that people can be this incredibly stupid?? oh yeah, we elected obama and almost elected hillary. yeah, this country is becoming that stupid. I'll bet they won't let them use a slingshot with those rocks though, as that might be considered an assault weapon and therefore not fair.
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 24, 2018 10:21:59 GMT -6
Rocks? At first I thought this has to be fake news?
That Super actually has a PhD. Some kind of stupid . Well, I will give him some credit, his choice of rocks is a good one. River Rocks.
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 24, 2018 12:31:38 GMT -6
This makes sense. WWW. ShelterInPlace.com.
"Bullet Proof safe rooms". Have back up power, camera's to see what is going on outside. Hurricane Proof, tornado proof etc.
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Post by hawg on Mar 24, 2018 14:04:58 GMT -6
This makes sense. WWW. ShelterInPlace.com. "Bullet Proof safe rooms". Have back up power, camera's to see what is going on outside. Hurricane Proof, tornado proof etc. Well we used to crawl under our desks to protect us from nuclear attack, so I guess whatever makes you "think" you're safe.
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Post by bernard on Mar 24, 2018 14:22:42 GMT -6
What is your evidence for believing this? History. Human nature. You bring your stick and I'll bring my hand-full of rocks... you send your attack planes, we'll drop an atomic bomb.... I don't understand. If you believe that sensible gun control laws would stop the creep from getting a gun, you must surely believe that our rocket launcher control laws currently work to stop him getting a rocket launcher. Hence there is already a ceiling on what weaponry he can reasonably acquire. He cannot forever one-up his victims. I would assume that while the active shooter is gunning down Mr Pearson, taking advantage of his slow loading technique, he is neglecting to account for Ms Penowski, who is loading her gun down the corridor, Mr Jeeps, who is loading his gun over in the gym, and Ms Benson who has locked and loaded and is approaching from behind. He cannot gun them all down before they load. A sensible policy for arming teachers, however, would not focus on training the teachers to engage with the active shooter. It would center on training them to control the space. Cover the doors to wherever the shooter is and lay down fire should he try to exit. Keep him contained until the cops arrive. We once had a credible threat on the campus where I worked. They brought the cops in to debrief us. Their advice was, "put our number on your speed dial". When I asked what their response time was, they said approximately eight minutes. These were the campus cops, who are paid to exist on campus, telling me that it takes them eight minutes to get to the part of campus where the active shooter is. It goes without saying that guns are not allowed on campus. So the students and staff would be at the mercy of the gunman for eight whole minutes. He would probably have time to empty all his clips. There has to be a better solution.
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Post by bernard on Mar 24, 2018 14:27:54 GMT -6
Why put fire extinguishers in school? After all, a fire is going to do whatever it feels like. It's their nature. Why expect teachers to fight it? Thats what firefighters are for......whenever they get there. Guess I should have been clearer. Do you really suppose a lunatic who's out to kill a lot of people is going to bother with a gun if the teachers are armed? Nah. He'll do a Mc Veigh. By the same logic, do you suppose a lunatic who's out to kill a lot of people is going to abandon his mission if sensible gun control laws prevent him from getting a gun? Nah. He'll do a McVeigh.
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Post by bernard on Mar 24, 2018 14:29:21 GMT -6
they'll just do something "different" so why try? that's your plan? If I was in charge, I'd change gun laws. I'd make the age of owning a gun 21. I'd make it mandatory to be vigorously trained in gun safety and use to own a gun. I'd outlaw the sale of semi-automatic weapons like AR-15s. Would you outlaw all semi-automatics, or just the ones that have the cosmetic appearance of military hardware?
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 24, 2018 15:24:58 GMT -6
This makes sense. WWW. ShelterInPlace.com. "Bullet Proof safe rooms". Have back up power, camera's to see what is going on outside. Hurricane Proof, tornado proof etc. Well we used to crawl under our desks to protect us from nuclear attack, so I guess whatever makes you "think" you're safe. Yeah they still have only desk. Bullet proof & serious weather conditions for safety makes that idea a win win. Desk did not help back then at all nor are they today. Seems with your comment you want a gun battle. I don't just "think" this idea a safety zone"it is". Until the police can get there, 8 to 10 mins makes a great difference when some madman opens fire. As far as the nukes & crawling under your desk was nonsense, just like the throw rocks moronic ideal.
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Post by hawg on Mar 24, 2018 20:06:13 GMT -6
History. Human nature. You bring your stick and I'll bring my hand-full of rocks... you send your attack planes, we'll drop an atomic bomb.... I don't understand. If you believe that sensible gun control laws would stop the creep from getting a gun, you must surely believe that our rocket launcher control laws currently work to stop him getting a rocket launcher. Hence there is already a ceiling on what weaponry he can reasonably acquire. He cannot forever one-up his victims. I would assume that while the active shooter is gunning down Mr Pearson, taking advantage of his slow loading technique, he is neglecting to account for Ms Penowski, who is loading her gun down the corridor, Mr Jeeps, who is loading his gun over in the gym, and Ms Benson who has locked and loaded and is approaching from behind. He cannot gun them all down before they load. A sensible policy for arming teachers, however, would not focus on training the teachers to engage with the active shooter. It would center on training them to control the space. Cover the doors to wherever the shooter is and lay down fire should he try to exit. Keep him contained until the cops arrive. We once had a credible threat on the campus where I worked. They brought the cops in to debrief us. Their advice was, "put our number on your speed dial". When I asked what their response time was, they said approximately eight minutes. These were the campus cops, who are paid to exist on campus, telling me that it takes them eight minutes to get to the part of campus where the active shooter is. It goes without saying that guns are not allowed on campus. So the students and staff would be at the mercy of the gunman for eight whole minutes. He would probably have time to empty all his clips. There has to be a better solution. I agree with cover, control and protect your space. perhaps better, stronger classroom doors would be a good start and if breached fill THAT space full of lead. I disagree with trying to keep the shooter inside till the police arrive. if he wants to leave, let him. anything that puts distance between him and students I consider good. let the cops catch him on their own time. (and I'm not bad mouthing cops, I was one for 34 years)
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Post by hawg on Mar 24, 2018 20:12:22 GMT -6
Well we used to crawl under our desks to protect us from nuclear attack, so I guess whatever makes you "think" you're safe. Yeah they still have only desk. Bullet proof & serious weather conditions for safety makes that idea a win win. Desk did not help back then at all nor are they today. Seems with your comment you want a gun battle. I don't just "think" this idea a safety zone"it is". Until the police can get there, 8 to 10 mins makes a great difference when some madman opens fire. As far as the nukes & crawling under your desk was nonsense, just like the throw rocks moronic ideal. I couldn't get your link to pull up so I don't know what it says. if each classroom is better built for security (security; kind of a myth actually) then "in place" may have value. if it's talking about a stand alone safe room I don't see how we're going to marshal several hundred kids to it. what does it say? (no, I'm not looking for a gun battle)
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Post by hawg on Mar 24, 2018 20:31:15 GMT -6
all things considered I'm actually kind of on the fence about arming teachers. while guns are by no means a guarantee of safety, I simply cannot see telling an adult he has no business defending himself. could it make things worse? maybe. define "worse". but overall I doubt it. I had a friend who, with his family, took a vacation to mexico. during a bus tour they were hijacked and robbed at gunpoint. they killed his brother, laid them all out prone and put guns to their heads in execution mode. then they just left. he asked me if he would have had a gun would it have been better or make it worse. he is a bit of an anti armed citizenry kind of guy. (OK, democrat). I said I couldn't answer that, it's just not all that black and white. first off it's a moot point being in Mexico. but here in the United States I am absolutely amazed when an adult doesn't take advantage of our CCW laws. I asked him if after they killed his brother and laid everybody out prone with a gun to their head, did he fully believe he was about to die? he said yes. then at that point how could you having a gun make it worse? so, that is where I "lean" to either arming teachers or having weapons available to them, like fire extinquishers. with some training of course.
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 24, 2018 20:47:45 GMT -6
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 24, 2018 20:56:07 GMT -6
Remember they said this guy shot at the window, it was hurricane glass it did him no good. Guess he thought he could shoot outside from the third floor.
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 24, 2018 21:23:16 GMT -6
I don't understand. If you believe that sensible gun control laws would stop the creep from getting a gun, you must surely believe that our rocket launcher control laws currently work to stop him getting a rocket launcher. Hence there is already a ceiling on what weaponry he can reasonably acquire. He cannot forever one-up his victims. I would assume that while the active shooter is gunning down Mr Pearson, taking advantage of his slow loading technique, he is neglecting to account for Ms Penowski, who is loading her gun down the corridor, Mr Jeeps, who is loading his gun over in the gym, and Ms Benson who has locked and loaded and is approaching from behind. He cannot gun them all down before they load. A sensible policy for arming teachers, however, would not focus on training the teachers to engage with the active shooter. It would center on training them to control the space. Cover the doors to wherever the shooter is and lay down fire should he try to exit. Keep him contained until the cops arrive. We once had a credible threat on the campus where I worked. They brought the cops in to debrief us. Their advice was, "put our number on your speed dial". When I asked what their response time was, they said approximately eight minutes. These were the campus cops, who are paid to exist on campus, telling me that it takes them eight minutes to get to the part of campus where the active shooter is. It goes without saying that guns are not allowed on campus. So the students and staff would be at the mercy of the gunman for eight whole minutes. He would probably have time to empty all his clips. There has to be a better solution. I agree with cover, control and protect your space. perhaps better, stronger classroom doors would be a good start and if breached fill THAT space full of lead. I disagree with trying to keep the shooter inside till the police arrive. if he wants to leave, let him. anything that puts distance between him and students I consider good. let the cops catch him on their own time. (and I'm not bad mouthing cops, I was one for 34 years) My hubby who passed away in 2000,was a cop too.
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Post by bernard on Mar 25, 2018 0:00:37 GMT -6
I agree with cover, control and protect your space. perhaps better, stronger classroom doors would be a good start and if breached fill THAT space full of lead. I disagree with trying to keep the shooter inside till the police arrive. if he wants to leave, let him. anything that puts distance between him and students I consider good. let the cops catch him on their own time. (and I'm not bad mouthing cops, I was one for 34 years) Fair enough. I defer to your superior knowledge.
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Post by bernard on Mar 25, 2018 0:02:09 GMT -6
I agree with cover, control and protect your space. perhaps better, stronger classroom doors would be a good start and if breached fill THAT space full of lead. I disagree with trying to keep the shooter inside till the police arrive. if he wants to leave, let him. anything that puts distance between him and students I consider good. let the cops catch him on their own time. (and I'm not bad mouthing cops, I was one for 34 years) Incidentally, how would you say the average cop felt about more gun control?
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Post by hawg on Mar 25, 2018 10:44:31 GMT -6
I agree with cover, control and protect your space. perhaps better, stronger classroom doors would be a good start and if breached fill THAT space full of lead. I disagree with trying to keep the shooter inside till the police arrive. if he wants to leave, let him. anything that puts distance between him and students I consider good. let the cops catch him on their own time. (and I'm not bad mouthing cops, I was one for 34 years) My hubby who passed away in 2000,was a cop too. i'm sorry to hear that.
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Post by hawg on Mar 25, 2018 10:57:52 GMT -6
I agree with cover, control and protect your space. perhaps better, stronger classroom doors would be a good start and if breached fill THAT space full of lead. I disagree with trying to keep the shooter inside till the police arrive. if he wants to leave, let him. anything that puts distance between him and students I consider good. let the cops catch him on their own time. (and I'm not bad mouthing cops, I was one for 34 years) Incidentally, how would you say the average cop felt about more gun control? "gun control" is not the best terminology as it is as vague as the color grey. cops understand laws do not effectively prevent anything. they only give society a guideline and the authority to take action when violated. it's the action or punishment that needs to be effective. and cops are extremely frustrated at the lack of punishment or even good action. I can almost guarantee that every street cop, if allowed to be honest, fully understands that he CANNOT guarantee your safety and that your safety and defense is entirely up to you. at least in my neck of the woods they fully support concealed carry laws. you don't see cops saying, "hey, take my AR-15 and high capacity semi-auto handgun". it would be the absolute height of hypocrisy for a cop to say he deserves the right to carry but you don't. and just to be clear on my position, I have said for many, many years that I do not / didn't want my job to be made easier at the expenses of your rights. any of them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 14:45:56 GMT -6
If I was in charge, I'd change gun laws. I'd make the age of owning a gun 21. I'd make it mandatory to be vigorously trained in gun safety and use to own a gun. I'd outlaw the sale of semi-automatic weapons like AR-15s. let's see, age to own at 21, yeah, because NOBODY over 21 has ever committed a mass shooting. (wait, we let 18 year olds go to war and shoot guns, hhmmm) vigorously trained, seems good but cops and soldiers are vigorously trained and they still die. oh wait, do you think you have to be "trained" NOT to commit mass shootings? outlaw AR-15's, you mean like the way we have outlawed and prevented murder in general? you know, we did essentially outlaw and severely restrict full-auto weapons (you do know the difference right?) and today nobody is shooting up schools with them, buuuut schools are still being shot up. and will still be shot up when you outlaw AR-15'S. here's an idea you can get behind. a school district in pennsylvania is now stocking classrooms with rocks to fight school shooters. is it truly possible that people can be this incredibly stupid?? oh yeah, we elected obama and almost elected hillary. yeah, this country is becoming that stupid. I'll bet they won't let them use a slingshot with those rocks though, as that might be considered an assault weapon and therefore not fair. So, your solution is to do nothing because it might not help. Sounds similar to what you accused me of. LOL Way to take what I say and say what I didn't say. Never said that my thoughts on what to do were a perfect solution. Most school shootings are committed by children (under 18) are committed by someone who got a weapon from home. IMO, parents should be charged when that happens. They either disregarded the training on gun safety or didn't get any training. Ya can't charge them if training isn't required. Regardless, in that world I run, 18 year-olds wouldn't be going to war, either. Many years ago, we decided that you had to be 21 to drink/buy alcohol and smoke/buy cigarettes because 18 year-olds aren't mature enough. I figure a person is either an adult under all circumstances ~ or not. Arming kids with rocks. Hmm. Well, in that case they oughta train them in the art of precise throwing. I don't actually think it's a stupid idea. Better than cowering under desks while their teacher is out trying to remember the combination to the lock-box his gun is in.
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Post by whitediamonds on Mar 26, 2018 14:57:35 GMT -6
To add to that we do not have the draft anymore for sometime, if an 18 yr old elects to join he will not be out shooting up kids in school or anyone. By the time he gets out he would be 21 yrs old.
Hawg said my link did not work, about shelter in place Oklahoma is thinking of doing. I placed aanother post with the link, stating this link does now work. No comment for that idea either. So, yes I agree he does not provide or like any solutions at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 15:04:17 GMT -6
History. Human nature. You bring your stick and I'll bring my hand-full of rocks... you send your attack planes, we'll drop an atomic bomb.... I don't understand. If you believe that sensible gun control laws would stop the creep from getting a gun, you must surely believe that our rocket launcher control laws currently work to stop him getting a rocket launcher. Hence there is already a ceiling on what weaponry he can reasonably acquire. He cannot forever one-up his victims. Well, unless his victim is forever ready to one-up the attacker, then, yes, he sure can. Gunning down Mr Pearson and his room full of kids. Seems to me stones being thrown from every direction would be equally ~ or more ~ effective. This makes sense. Our granddaughters are armed with door-stops, as many are. I know. But I simply don't think armed teachers is it. Maybe we have to pay for better security, more campus cops.
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