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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Sept 17, 2010 7:56:25 GMT -6
These days there's a trial going on in Germany. It's got a lot of media attention. It's about the school shooting that took place about a year ago. 15 people died on that day including the murderer who shot himself. The defendant in this trial is the father of the murderer. He's accused of not having stored the gun properly which was used in the crime. In Germany you have to store all weapons in lockers which fulfill criteria of certain safety standards. But he's not only accused of having violated firearms laws, he's also accused of negligent homicide. That he - allegedly - left the gun outside the locker resulted in the deaths of 15 people. It's not really clear whether the son had known the code to the locker anyway but let's assume he hadn't and that he was only able to get hold of the gun because his father left it outside the locker. What do you think? Regardless of the law, do you think one can be held responsible for the act of another? Because that's basically the message of the indictment. I think this is more of a witch-hunt now. How far do we want to go? After all we could say that the mistakes a parent makes in the upbringing of a child led to the child becoming a murderer and thus the parent should be punished for negligent homicide. I think if one decides to kill his intentions are the only decisive driving force. Only if others assist (may it be physically or psychologically) they set another, isolable cause for the crime. Anything else is a mere circumstance. P.S.: I put it in "Legal Topics" because it seems to fit best here. Shouldn't mean a legal discussion is expected. A news article can be found at www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11324888. |
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Post by ltdc on Sept 17, 2010 10:06:10 GMT -6
do you guys hold BMW responsible for drunk drivers?? same thing. it's sad to see what our two societies have become.  |
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Sept 17, 2010 11:03:51 GMT -6
do you guys hold BMW responsible for drunk drivers?? same thing. it's sad to see what our two societies have become. It's not about the weapon's manufacturer. The CEO of Beretta is not the defendant. If daddy left the keys to his BMW accessable to his son who then goes on a killing spree with it, he might just as well be accused of negligent homicide. So, it's not really about guns. |
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Post by reapwysow on Sept 17, 2010 16:49:39 GMT -6
These days there's a trial going on in Germany. It's got a lot of media attention. It's about the school shooting that took place about a year ago. 15 people died on that day including the murderer who shot himself. The defendant in this trial is the father of the murderer. He's accused of not having stored the gun properly which was used in the crime. In Germany you have to store all weapons in lockers which fulfill criteria of certain safety standards. But he's not only accused of having violated firearms laws, he's also accused of negligent homicide. That he - allegedly - left the gun outside the locker resulted in the deaths of 15 people. It's not really clear whether the son had known the code to the locker anyway but let's assume he hadn't and that he was only able to get hold of the gun because his father left it outside the locker. What do you think? Regardless of the law, do you think one can be held responsible for the act of another? Because that's basically the message of the indictment. I think this is more of a witch-hunt now. How far do we want to go? After all we could say that the mistakes a parent makes in the upbringing of a child led to the child becoming a murderer and thus the parent should be punished for negligent homicide. I think if one decides to kill his intentions are the only decisive driving force. Only if others assist (may it be physically or psychologically) they set another, isolable cause for the crime. Anything else is a mere circumstance. P.S.: I put it in "Legal Topics" because it seems to fit best here. Shouldn't mean a legal discussion is expected. A news article can be found at www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11324888. Sounds like they just want someone to blame , and the one they want is dead. The Aztecs did it best , bloodthirsty populace? give them blood. Appease the animal. Makes perfect sense to me. |
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Post by ltdc on Sept 17, 2010 18:31:40 GMT -6
do you guys hold BMW responsible for drunk drivers?? same thing. it's sad to see what our two societies have become. It's not about the weapon's manufacturer. The CEO of Beretta is not the defendant. If daddy left the keys to his BMW accessable to his son who then goes on a killing spree with it, he might just as well be accused of negligent homicide. So, it's not really about guns. I lnow but it's still the same thing, reap is right. they want a fallguy and the right one is dead. my point is our societies are too willing to go after the wrong people |
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Sept 18, 2010 1:40:47 GMT -6
It's not about the weapon's manufacturer. The CEO of Beretta is not the defendant. If daddy left the keys to his BMW accessable to his son who then goes on a killing spree with it, he might just as well be accused of negligent homicide. So, it's not really about guns. I lnow but it's still the same thing, reap is right. they want a fallguy and the right one is dead. my point is our societies are too willing to go after the wrong people I agree. I understand that the relatives of the victims are angry and that they want answers but the fact is that this man isn't the bad guy. His son not only committed suicide, he also murdered. Guess it's not so nice living with this knowledge. He received death threats after the incident, he had to leave the town and have his name changed. He's also very sick since then and had to undergo heart surgery. I don't know what they want him to do. He can't make it unhappen and he won't know why his son did it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2010 5:09:45 GMT -6
I lnow but it's still the same thing, reap is right. they want a fallguy and the right one is dead. my point is our societies are too willing to go after the wrong people I agree. I understand that the relatives of the victims are angry and that they want answers but the fact is that this man isn't the bad guy. His son not only committed suicide, he also murdered. Guess it's not so nice living with this knowledge. He received death threats after the incident, he had to leave the town and have his name changed. He's also very sick since then and had to undergo heart surgery. I don't know what they want him to do. He can't make it unhappen and he won't know why his son did it. 15 people have died just because he did not follow the the rules for securing his weapons properly. The lawmakers require the locker exactly for preventing what has happened. We simply want him to be punished for the absolutely unnecessary and avoidable death of 15 people- |
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Sept 19, 2010 6:58:46 GMT -6
15 people have died just because he did not follow the the rules for securing his weapons properly. The lawmakers require the locker exactly for preventing what has happened. We simply want him to be punished for the absolutely unnecessary and avoidable death of 15 people- I understand your point. I simply think the father was only one element in a chain of causations. If you only look at causations you end up blaming the mother for having given birth to the perp. It took the intent of the son to make a catastrophe out of this. I don't want to double check every action I do to find out whether someone could intentionally abuse it. If the father had left the pistol outside the locker, his five year old son had taken it and people had died then we could blame the father. But you cannot blame someone for not having thought about how a fully competent person could abuse his mistake. It's not his responsibility. For the mistake he has made, namely that he violated the gun law, there are special provisions requiring punishment. To me that's it. |
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Post by reapwysow on Sept 19, 2010 7:52:18 GMT -6
I agree. I understand that the relatives of the victims are angry and that they want answers but the fact is that this man isn't the bad guy. His son not only committed suicide, he also murdered. Guess it's not so nice living with this knowledge. He received death threats after the incident, he had to leave the town and have his name changed. He's also very sick since then and had to undergo heart surgery. I don't know what they want him to do. He can't make it unhappen and he won't know why his son did it. 15 people have died just because he did not follow the the rules for securing his weapons properly. The lawmakers require the locker exactly for preventing what has happened. We simply want him to be punished for the absolutely unnecessary and avoidable death of 15 people- 15 people died because some scumbag killed them , not "Just" because the father did not follow the rules. Yes the father deserves to pay the price for not following the rules on his gun locker , but he is in no way responsible for any of those deaths. |
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Post by ltdc on Sept 27, 2010 12:11:32 GMT -6
I agree. I understand that the relatives of the victims are angry and that they want answers but the fact is that this man isn't the bad guy. His son not only committed suicide, he also murdered. Guess it's not so nice living with this knowledge. He received death threats after the incident, he had to leave the town and have his name changed. He's also very sick since then and had to undergo heart surgery. I don't know what they want him to do. He can't make it unhappen and he won't know why his son did it. 15 people have died just because he did not follow the the rules for securing his weapons properly. The lawmakers require the locker exactly for preventing what has happened. We simply want him to be punished for the absolutely unnecessary and avoidable death of 15 people- 42,000 people die each year over here because we apparantly didn't properly secure alcohol and car keys from those who would abuse it. and this list could go on..... |
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