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Post by Grey on Dec 18, 2008 13:41:34 GMT -6
No, they deserve the DP, bet let's just skip the part where they are not knocked out first. What the hell is wrong with these people? That baby could have gone to a loving home.
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jbpro
Regular
Member of the Month - 3/09
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Post by jbpro on Dec 18, 2008 13:58:00 GMT -6
Incredibly the terrible injury went unnoticed by social workers AND paediatrician Dr Sabah Al Zayyat. The doctor also failed to notice eight fractured ribs and two missing fingernails.
How in the world could this have not been noticed. I think the social workers and the doctor should be charged with negligence.
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Post by me1 on Dec 18, 2008 14:06:30 GMT -6
This is starting to annoy me. Why all this fuss over this baby P? What about the countless other babies that have been killed by their low life parents? Us British always like to blame someone so we got some social workers and people higher up sacked over it. How the hell was it their fault? They can't be watching what these damn people are doing to their young children every 5 minutes.
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Post by supermax on Dec 18, 2008 14:22:48 GMT -6
ok, Ill play. So, Andy, who's fault is it and how should they be punished and why ? This is starting to annoy me. Why all this fuss over this baby P? What about the countless other babies that have been killed by their low life parents? Us British always like to blame someone so we got some social workers and people higher up sacked over it. How the hell was it their fault? They can't be watching what these damn people are doing to their young children every 5 minutes.
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Dec 19, 2008 11:28:37 GMT -6
I thought they were supposed to be up for sentencing on the 15th of December, yet we have heard nothing in the British Press. I don't even think their sentences will be all that long as they cannot prove who actually killed the child. British Sentencing - what a joke? The best bit will be when they all get out of jail. We Brits will pay through our taxes to ensure they all have new identities so that they can live their live without stigma. That's why I admire the USA and their sentencing structure. When you say life, you mean life.....not a measly 10 years or so that they get in the UK. This 'mother' also had another 4 children - God Almighty, it doesn't bear thinking about.
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Post by Grey on Dec 19, 2008 14:09:46 GMT -6
This is starting to annoy me. Why all this fuss over this baby P? What about the countless other babies that have been killed by their low life parents? Us British always like to blame someone so we got some social workers and people higher up sacked over it. How the hell was it their fault? They can't be watching what these damn people are doing to their young children every 5 minutes. If you recall, the social workers visited this baby and saw his condition and did nothing--I believe one said to "wash his face he looks disgusting." And I bet they over looked the smell of urine and feces, besides the fact that he was malnourished. The social workers and doctors did nothing to give this boy a fighting chance. They helped the father kill him by not taking him away.
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Post by Lauren on Dec 19, 2008 16:23:08 GMT -6
This is starting to annoy me. Why all this fuss over this baby P? What about the countless other babies that have been killed by their low life parents? Us British always like to blame someone so we got some social workers and people higher up sacked over it. How the hell was it their fault? They can't be watching what these damn people are doing to their young children every 5 minutes. The social worker should have noticed that baby P was hurt, that the living conditions were poor. The doctor should have noticed the broken back and ribs along with the sliced finger tips. They did nothing to help this poor baby, who could have been removed from the house. They tortured a baby. Baby P is going to be, hopefully a wake up call for social workers and doctors so it doesn't happen again. The more you post, the more it sounds like you support criminals and people who torture babies.
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Post by moonlight on Dec 20, 2008 6:47:49 GMT -6
The death penalty might be too good if not followed by a very horrible torture. Thats right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2008 7:30:27 GMT -6
This is starting to annoy me. Why all this fuss over this baby P? What about the countless other babies that have been killed by their low life parents? Us British always like to blame someone so we got some social workers and people higher up sacked over it. How the hell was it their fault? They can't be watching what these damn people are doing to their young children every 5 minutes. It seemed they missed some vital, obvious clues that this baby was being abused. What person, knowing that this kid lived in a place like that (at the very least) would allow him to continue living there. While the step father and mother are ultimately responsible for this babies death, it does not mean that others should not be held acountable. It is pricesely for children like this that child protection laws should come into play. Professionals failed to act on triggers that could have saved this kid, and that is reprehensible This was a 17 month old who had no way of asking for help, he was totally reliant on his inadequate, evil POS parents and a totally stuffed up system that failed him miserably. It isn't good enough to say that these things happen. he was a kid who needed and deserved more
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2008 11:22:19 GMT -6
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Post by me1 on Dec 21, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -6
This is starting to annoy me. Why all this fuss over this baby P? What about the countless other babies that have been killed by their low life parents? Us British always like to blame someone so we got some social workers and people higher up sacked over it. How the hell was it their fault? They can't be watching what these damn people are doing to their young children every 5 minutes. It seemed they missed some vital, obvious clues that this baby was being abused. What person, knowing that this kid lived in a place like that (at the very least) would allow him to continue living there. While the step father and mother are ultimately responsible for this babies death, it does not mean that others should not be held acountable. It is pricesely for children like this that child protection laws should come into play. Professionals failed to act on triggers that could have saved this kid, and that is reprehensible This was a 17 month old who had no way of asking for help, he was totally reliant on his inadequate, evil POS parents and a totally stuffed up system that failed him miserably. It isn't good enough to say that these things happen. he was a kid who needed and deserved more Thanks for the info. I've got so used to them sensationalising one story that is similar to thousands of others that never made the press that i never looked into it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 14:36:06 GMT -6
These views make me laugh. How on earth is the DP "too good"?? Give me a reason how (Other than stating it that is). Isn't the DP the ultimate punishment? What more do you want? You can't get any 'worse' than death..
Tell me, I'm intrigued to know...Not only is wishing death on a person barbarous, but maybe it's just me but I was under the impression that death is a bad as it gets
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 16:20:37 GMT -6
**Sigh** Oh dear, someone needs to understand that it costs the TAXPAYER an extortionate amount of money to execute an offender. It's far cheaper to keep them incarcerated. I wish people would either a) admit to being ignorant (it's ok as there is re-education for this) or b) stop bandying about information like it's 'fact'. The death penalty is an expensive answer to 'justice'. Yet again another reason why the DP is simply wrong on all levels.
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Post by Grey on Dec 24, 2008 16:37:08 GMT -6
**Sigh** Oh dear, someone needs to understand that it costs the TAXPAYER an extortionate amount of money to execute an offender. It's far cheaper to keep them incarcerated. I wish people would either a) admit to being ignorant (it's ok as there is re-education for this) or b) stop bandying about information like it's 'fact'. The death penalty is an expensive answer to 'justice'. Yet again another reason why the DP is simply wrong on all levels. **sigh** Yet again, the people who are keeping the DP going are the murderers and the people who decide to murder...why is that so hard to understand?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 16:56:31 GMT -6
You've completely ignored my point and drivelled on about the rights versus wrongs of the DP
I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance
Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated.
What part of that isn't sinking into your brain? Are you willing to argue that? because if so, you'll lose.
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Post by Grey on Dec 24, 2008 17:04:10 GMT -6
Oh I know the DP is expensive, but because the DP is an economic investment and there is a supply(murderers) and a demand(capital punishment) some people don`t really look at the price tag. You've completely ignored my point and drivelled on about the rights versus wrongs of the DP I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated. What part of that isn't sinking into your brain? Are you willing to argue that? because if so, you'll lose.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 17:08:25 GMT -6
Oh I know the DP is expensive, but because the DP is an economic investment and there is a supply(murderers) and a demand(capital punishment) some people don`t really look at the price tag. You've completely ignored my point and drivelled on about the rights versus wrongs of the DP I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated. What part of that isn't sinking into your brain? Are you willing to argue that? because if so, you'll lose. Again another theory (a false one at that). It is again a fact that States WITH the death penalty have no lesser reduction in their crimes than states without. There is numerous concrete evidence that proves this. So another reason not to put another person to death. In fact there are no justifiable reasons..all you're left with is the desire for revenge. This is a rocky basis to kill another person. The DP simply doesn't work
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 17:11:57 GMT -6
You've completely ignored my point and drivelled on about the rights versus wrongs of the DP I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated. What part of that isn't sinking into your brain? Are you willing to argue that? because if so, you'll lose. SO justice should have a price limit? Ok this murder has been in jail for 2 years, and has used up his budget we should just let him out. Yes the dp has a high cost, but so does lwop. The cost comes from the trials and appeals. Once a murderer is worm bait he no longer costs the state a penny. Someone in jail can tie up the courts with endless appeals for the rest of his life.
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Post by mel77 on Dec 24, 2008 17:20:01 GMT -6
Oh I know the DP is expensive, but because the DP is an economic investment and there is a supply(murderers) and a demand(capital punishment) some people don`t really look at the price tag. Again another theory (a false one at that). It is again a fact that States WITH the death penalty have no lesser reduction in their crimes than states without. There is numerous concrete evidence that proves this. So another reason not to put another person to death. In fact there are no justifiable reasons..all you're left with is the desire for revenge. This is a rocky basis to kill another person. The DP simply doesn't work The cost is irrelevant.
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Post by Grey on Dec 24, 2008 17:20:15 GMT -6
Oh I know the DP is expensive, but because the DP is an economic investment and there is a supply(murderers) and a demand(capital punishment) some people don`t really look at the price tag. Again another theory (a false one at that). It is again a fact that States WITH the death penalty have no lesser reduction in their crimes than states without. There is numerous concrete evidence that proves this. So another reason not to put another person to death. In fact there are no justifiable reasons..all you're left with is the desire for revenge. This is a rocky basis to kill another person. The DP simply doesn't work Hence the supply part, if people continue to murder, States may continue to enforce the DP. If you think about it, if a person kills someone knowing that the DP is a consequence then they are pretty much comitting suicide. There killing themselves with their own actions. This is a fact. Some states and countires have the DP This is a fact. If a person is convicted of murder they may recieve capital punishment This is a fact. If a person decide not to murder anyone then they would not be on DR This is a fact. Because they decided to kill someone what ever happens to them is because of THEIR own actions. You say revenge, I say stupidity.
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Post by Californian on Dec 24, 2008 17:48:14 GMT -6
You've completely ignored my point and drivelled on about the rights versus wrongs of the DP I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated. What part of that isn't sinking into your brain? Are you willing to argue that? because if so, you'll lose. The part that isn't sinking into my brain is your lack of understanding that regardless of the cost, some things are worth it. Could you explain why justice, and the will of the people, should be subjected to a cost/benefit analysis?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 21:28:05 GMT -6
**Sigh** Oh dear, someone needs to understand that it costs the TAXPAYER an extortionate amount of money to execute an offender. It's far cheaper to keep them incarcerated. I wish people would either a) admit to being ignorant (it's ok as there is re-education for this) or b) stop bandying about information like it's 'fact'. The death penalty is an expensive answer to 'justice'. Yet again another reason why the DP is simply wrong on all levels. It didn't used to be. And we are going to fix it. The Federal court system is horribly broken. As soon as we streamline the ridiculous appeals process, it will stop being more expensive to execute someone than lock them up for life. There should also be a way to kick liberal activist judges off the bench for failing to uphold the Constitution.
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mst3k4evur
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Post by mst3k4evur on Dec 24, 2008 23:41:34 GMT -6
I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated. Control yourself for a second and realize this is not a fact because the data saying the DP is more expensive than LWOP does not take all costs into account. The antis say that a lifetime of room and board for the average inmate along with the trial is less expensive than the average cost of appeals, room and board and trial of a death row inmate. They leave out several facts that show inmates serving LWOP for murder (the only alternative to the DP) are far more expensive than the average prisoner: 1. LWOP inmates doing life for murder must serve time in maximum security or supermaximum, not medium or minimum security like average prisoners. 2. As they get older, lifers require an inordinate amount of medical care aggravated by the fact that many are obese, live in an unhealthy environment and have long term drug problems. Geriatric care is also extremely expensive, even taking into account the very poor state of it in state prisons. 3. Depending on the level of violence shown in prison, lifers are often guarded by CO's who collect extra hazard pay. 4. Inmates serving LWOP also file appeals which cost the state a great amount. Even taking these into account, there are ways to lower the costs of DP prisoners' appeals. Namely, shorten the time to file appeals. There is no reason for the vast majority of death row inmates to spend more than three to five years appealing their sentences. No appeals need to be eliminated, just the time in between their filings. My state's longest serving death row inmate, Robert Breton, has been on his last appeal since 2003 with no end in sight in a case with no real doubts on any substantive issues. What damage would be done by limiting him to two years for each appeal?
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Dec 25, 2008 1:50:09 GMT -6
I'm speaking about cost in this particular instance Yet again you fail to understand that it's a fact, (not my opinion) that the DP costs the State AND the Taxpayer alike more to execute an individual than it does to keep him or her incarcerated. Control yourself for a second and realize this is not a fact because the data saying the DP is more expensive than LWOP does not take all costs into account. The antis say that a lifetime of room and board for the average inmate along with the trial is less expensive than the average cost of appeals, room and board and trial of a death row inmate. They leave out several facts that show inmates serving LWOP for murder (the only alternative to the DP) are far more expensive than the average prisoner: 1. LWOP inmates doing life for murder must serve time in maximum security or supermaximum, not medium or minimum security like average prisoners. 2. As they get older, lifers require an inordinate amount of medical care aggravated by the fact that many are obese, live in an unhealthy environment and have long term drug problems. Geriatric care is also extremely expensive, even taking into account the very poor state of it in state prisons. 3. Depending on the level of violence shown in prison, lifers are often guarded by CO's who collect extra hazard pay. 4. Inmates serving LWOP also file appeals which cost the state a great amount. Even taking these into account, there are ways to lower the costs of DP prisoners' appeals. Namely, shorten the time to file appeals. There is no reason for the vast majority of death row inmates to spend more than three to five years appealing their sentences. No appeals need to be eliminated, just the time in between their filings. My state's longest serving death row inmate, Robert Breton, has been on his last appeal since 2003 with no end in sight in a case with no real doubts on any substantive issues. What damage would be done by limiting him to two years for each appeal? I could not agree more. Why continue the useless appeals when the POS has admitted his crime??? Why do the lawyers insist on appeals based on stupid technicalities such as 'cruel punishment'? God....I wish my country had the DP, or even a better sentencing structure. The bastards who did this to Baby P will be back on the streets before you know it....and they will be protected from identification by money from my taxes. My only hope is that justice will be served from within the prison system. It is a pity that another inmate may have to suffer longer time due to the injustice of our own system, but at least something might be done. The British press are not allowed to publish the names of these animals - what an effin joke. Let the world know just what walks amongst them. The doctor who 'examined' Baby P and missed a BROKEN BACK has been suspended pending investigation by the General Medical Council - if justice is served she will NEVER practice again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2008 11:34:06 GMT -6
Bulshit and you know it.
Everyone (guilty or innocent) deserves a fair trial amongst a jury of their peers. That is one thing I'm sure we're all in unison on whether we're pro or Anti DP.
Offenders often are from poor backgrounds, hence have little funds to finance a decent defense lawyer. They are often appointted State lawyers who have little or no experience in trying capital cases. This, coupled with the fact that it takes years to exhaust all appeals (to which they have a right to do) runs up an extortionate bill that the taxpayer funds. LWOP does not come close to the cost of the DP. In fact LWOP is mere 'food and water' in comparison.
OJ Simpson being a prime candidate of this fact. He is an African American citizen, a rich one hence he had the funds to finance the best defense team there was...who BOUGHT him his life (a frightening reality considering a similar case involving another offender would end up most likely in a death sentence). Had he had been poor, OJ Simpson would be six feet under by now.
Then you've got the Department of public prosecution who have to be paid, the legalities, the research.
Money in America buys you your life. They want a convintion and they don't care WHO pays as long as someone does. It's an unintelligent, barbaric approach to law and order that serves no purpose other than revenge (quite a selfish approach in fact).
The DP has no place in a civilised society or any society for that fact. It does not work.
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Post by Stormyweather on Dec 25, 2008 11:58:54 GMT -6
Had he had been poor, OJ Simpson would be six feet under by now. I doubt it since they didn't persue the dp to begin with. But had they asked for the dp and he had gotten it, he would probably still be sitting on dr. Goes to show how much you don't know. Oh by the way. OJ's money didn't get him off at his last trial.
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Post by Stormyweather on Dec 25, 2008 12:02:45 GMT -6
Money in America buys you your life. They want a convintion and they don't care WHO pays as long as someone does. Blah Blah Blah. Oh by the way. Money didn't get Erik and Lyle Menendez off. They are currently serving LWOP for the murder of their rich parents.
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mst3k4evur
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Post by mst3k4evur on Dec 25, 2008 15:43:40 GMT -6
In fact LWOP is mere 'food and water' in comparison. Did you even read my last post? Are guards, supermax and appeals for lifers ringing a bell? Then why is he doing 9 to 33 years for armed robbery? Rich people won't get executed? Someone ought to tell that to Clarence Allen and Roy Pippin, both wealthy murderers. Oh wait, you can't now that they're dead. www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/pippin1069.htmwww.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/allen1005.htmNelson Serrano is awaiting execution too. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_SerranoJohn Brooks and Thomas Capano are two other wealthy men facing dp but thy managed to spend their way out of it. But both got LWOP and their money isn't going to change that.
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Post by Californian on Dec 26, 2008 1:53:53 GMT -6
Bulshit and you know it. Everyone (guilty or innocent) deserves a fair trial amongst a jury of their peers. That is one thing I'm sure we're all in unison on whether we're pro or Anti DP. Agreed. That's why every citizen of my nation charged with an offense that can result in jail time is guaranteed the services of an attorney without regard to his or her ability to pay. Can your nation say that? Honey, look. This is the USA. We don't place a price on justice. As I said in another thread, some things are worth paying for. Justice is one of them. This has got to be the lamest anti argument of all. It's so easily refuted, and has been so many times here, that I'm not going to even bother. Use the search function. You dumb ass. OJ was never charged with special circumstances murder, a requirement for the DP in California. His was never a capital case. And in any event, have you read a newspaper lately? Some rough approximation of justice was recently meted out in Nevada. See above. Again, so what? Goddam if you don't sound like the latest of the moralistic Euroweenie socialist ninnies we get here on occasion. Mind your own business. It's not your country. Could you please cite a case in which an executed murderer returned from the grave and killed someone else?
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
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Post by gillypod on Dec 26, 2008 17:01:35 GMT -6
Oh Shin, Shin, Shin.
Are you a parent? If you are then I cannot understand why you feel the need to defend 3 bastards who tortured a child. They did have a fair trial according to the laws of Great Britain; they were found guilty and will hopefully be sentenced soon.
The whole point of my argument was that the sentencing structure in the UK is pants, which is why I admire American Justice including its use of the DP.
These animals (I will not refer to them as Human, but I am sure you will) deliberately tortured a child to DEATH. They did not wag their finger under his nose, nor send him to they naughty step. THEY KILLED HIM!!!!!!
What would YOU want to happen to them if they killed your child? Would it be better to give them a slap on the wrist and hope they would never do it again? Would you prefer to let these three walk amongst decent people while they decide who else to torture? Do you hope they will 'find God' and become useful to society?
My opinion stands. If my country had the DP, then these 3 would have deserved it. Within 5 years (by my guess), they will be back on the streets free to do this again.
I promised myself when I joined this board that I would never be dragged into personal arguments, but when it comes to the death of a child your opinions mean nothing to me.
No child should ever suffer indignity, torture or death. When it comes to this level of crime I will never be swayed on my opinion. There is no reason, IMHO, to show criminals any level of sympathy. I care not for their 'unfortunate backgrounds' or whatever other reasons they come up with to excuse what they have done.
Maybe you cannot understand why I feel this way about the death of a 17 month old child, because I certainly do not understand why you feel the need to attack me for my compassion.
If you are so against the death penalty, then explain to me why you post here? I do not create a login to CCADP and attack the people who post there. If they wish to be so misguided as to SUPPORT child rapists and killers and try to fund their appeals, then the best of luck to them.
The death penalty is there for a reason, and long may it continue
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