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Post by beej76 on Jan 30, 2009 16:10:53 GMT -6
Now, I know pros will say "they should do both" - and maybe there is some truth to that - but I think this general concept/argument is interesting when we look at how we're spending money/resources: From DPIC: A bill is being introduced in Colorado to end the state’s death penalty and to use the resultant savings to investigate the state's more than 1,300 unsolved crimes. More than 500 residents who have lost friends and family to unsolved murders are pushing for the bill, which is expected to be introduced by House Majority Leader Paul Weissmann. The proponents estimate that 3 in 10 killers in the state walk free, and catching more killers would be a more effective deterrent than capital punishment and a better use of state funds. Weissman says abolishing capital punishment could save the state $2 million a year and local authorities another $2.5 million. “Any other program that cost that much and was used so little would be the first to go,” said Weissman, whose 2007 version of the bill died narrowly on the House floor. Howard Morton, of Families of Homicide Victims and Missing Persons, said, "Our position is very simple. Why talk about penalties when we haven't even caught [them]? Let's do first things first. These murderers are living in our neighborhoods." The last execution in Colorado was in 1997, and was the only execution in more than four decades. (J. Fender, “Bill targets Colorado’s death penalty,” The Denver Post, January 29, 2009). www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/victims-families-ask-state-end-death-penalty-and-solve-cold-cases-instead
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Post by ltdc on Jan 30, 2009 19:11:42 GMT -6
so Beej, do you really believe that all those appeals and scrutiny that you've said DP cases get, and which rises their costs, will go away and be denied to those on LWOP?? really, do you truly believe that? and if not, then where are the savings?
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Post by beej76 on Jan 30, 2009 19:51:19 GMT -6
so Beej, do you really believe that all those appeals and scrutiny that you've said DP cases get, and which rises their costs, will go away and be denied to those on LWOP?? really, do you truly believe that? and if not, then where are the savings? Mr it dc - I didn't introduce the bill - this is a DP board, and that's DP legislation - are you saying these folks are unfounded in their opinion?
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Post by kingsindanger on Jan 30, 2009 22:55:11 GMT -6
All of these conversations about cost of the dp is making my head hurt.
I don't see how repealing the DP will solve more cases. I haven't heard anything about NJ being able to solve more cases after they repealed the DP. Have you?
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Post by Grey on Jan 30, 2009 22:57:57 GMT -6
There are still unsolved crimes in states with LWOP....
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Jan 31, 2009 0:05:17 GMT -6
So if they solve these crimes and bring the scum to justice, what will the ultimate punishment be?
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Post by beej76 on Jan 31, 2009 12:45:57 GMT -6
So if they solve these crimes and bring the scum to justice, what will the ultimate punishment be? Assuming if the DP is off the books, either life in prison without parole - or they'd make them go to the University of Colorado - either is pretty sucky.
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Post by beej76 on Jan 31, 2009 12:47:15 GMT -6
There are still unsolved crimes in states with LWOP.... Yes, than you - but they do have a good point. Let's say there's three million dollars to play with. Option one is spend three million on a DP trial for a murderer. Option two is spend one million on the trial, and use the other two million for more detectives/resources on another case(s). What's your call?
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Post by beej76 on Jan 31, 2009 12:47:57 GMT -6
so Beej, do you really believe that all those appeals and scrutiny that you've said DP cases get, and which rises their costs, will go away and be denied to those on LWOP?? really, do you truly believe that? and if not, then where are the savings? How many appeals to LWOP folks get compared to DP folks? I suppose that would be the big answer.
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Post by Lisa on Jan 31, 2009 13:07:55 GMT -6
so Beej, do you really believe that all those appeals and scrutiny that you've said DP cases get, and which rises their costs, will go away and be denied to those on LWOP?? really, do you truly believe that? and if not, then where are the savings? How many appeals to LWOP folks get compared to DP folks? I suppose that would be the big answer. According to this article written in 2005, there were 2,225 serving LWOP for crimes committed when they were juveniles, and you can bet all of those were appealed. How many are on death row altogether? Somewhere around 3,300, I think. I imagine the number of appeals (and the cost) filed on behalf of those sentenced to LWOP, adults & juveniles together, would shock us all. www.courttv.com/people/bloom_blog/102505_juveniles_ctv.html
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Post by Lisa on Jan 31, 2009 13:17:06 GMT -6
There are still unsolved crimes in states with LWOP.... Yes, than you - but they do have a good point. Let's say there's three million dollars to play with. Option one is spend three million on a DP trial for a murderer. Option two is spend one million on the trial, and use the other two million for more detectives/resources on another case(s). What's your call? Have you ever seen a cost comparison study that includes the savings incurred by plea bargains in which murderers agree to LWOP, with no trial costs & no appeals, whatsoever? These plea bargains occur frequently in Texas, but I've never seen an estimate of the savings incurred by simply having the death penalty on the books.
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Post by beej76 on Jan 31, 2009 13:30:00 GMT -6
Yes, than you - but they do have a good point. Let's say there's three million dollars to play with. Option one is spend three million on a DP trial for a murderer. Option two is spend one million on the trial, and use the other two million for more detectives/resources on another case(s). What's your call? Have you ever seen a cost comparison study that includes the savings incurred by plea bargains in which murderers agree to LWOP, with no trial costs & no appeals, whatsoever? These plea bargains occur frequently in Texas, but I've never seen an estimate of the savings incurred by simply having the death penalty on the books. Good point - have not seen a study like that. How do pros feel about that though - person who's DP eligible being threatened with it to plead out to a lesser sentence?
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Post by Lisa on Jan 31, 2009 13:40:17 GMT -6
Have you ever seen a cost comparison study that includes the savings incurred by plea bargains in which murderers agree to LWOP, with no trial costs & no appeals, whatsoever? These plea bargains occur frequently in Texas, but I've never seen an estimate of the savings incurred by simply having the death penalty on the books. Good point - have not seen a study like that. How do pros feel about that though - person who's DP eligible being threatened with it to plead out to a lesser sentence? I'm sure some are upset and some are okay with it. Personally, I support the death penalty for all capital murderers, but as a fiscal conservative, I can also appreciate the savings. What I can't tolerate is capital murderers being released back into society.
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Post by Rev. Agave on Jan 31, 2009 14:09:09 GMT -6
As I have said before, one must think outside of the box. The costs associated with executing murderers could be easily offset through pay-per-view TV and/or corporate sponsorship. Charge people $20 to watch the execution from their living rooms and you'd pay for the cost of the trial and appeals.
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mst3k4evur
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Post by mst3k4evur on Jan 31, 2009 17:59:01 GMT -6
There are still unsolved crimes in states with LWOP.... Yes, than you - but they do have a good point. Let's say there's three million dollars to play with. Option one is spend three million on a DP trial for a murderer. Option two is spend one million on the trial, and use the other two million for more detectives/resources on another case(s). What's your call? And if they kill again, like Colorado inmates Edward Montour and Alejandro Perez? Both have prior murder convictions.
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Post by beej76 on Jan 31, 2009 21:04:08 GMT -6
Yes, than you - but they do have a good point. Let's say there's three million dollars to play with. Option one is spend three million on a DP trial for a murderer. Option two is spend one million on the trial, and use the other two million for more detectives/resources on another case(s). What's your call? And if they kill again, like Colorado inmates Edward Montour and Alejandro Perez? Both have prior murder convictions. Excellent point - or spend that two million on better prison systems so that there's less risks to guards. Wonderful anti point.
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Post by mst3k4evur on Jan 31, 2009 22:00:12 GMT -6
And if they kill again, like Colorado inmates Edward Montour and Alejandro Perez? Both have prior murder convictions. Excellent point - or spend that two million on better prison systems so that there's less risks to guards. Wonderful anti point. ADX Florence, a federal prison located in Colorado, is probably the most expensive and high tech prison in America and numerous murders have been committed or ordered from behind their walls.
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Post by ltdc on Feb 2, 2009 12:44:51 GMT -6
so Beej, do you really believe that all those appeals and scrutiny that you've said DP cases get, and which rises their costs, will go away and be denied to those on LWOP?? really, do you truly believe that? and if not, then where are the savings? Mr it dc - I didn't introduce the bill - this is a DP board, and that's DP legislation - are you saying these folks are unfounded in their opinion? it's feel good legislation nothing more. cost is not the main issue to continuing investigations, lack of evidence is. read it again, closer this time. don't care what these folks opinions are, the question to you was, do you really believe costs spent on DP apppeals won't go to LWOP appeals when DP is done? so where are the savings?
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Feb 2, 2009 17:09:31 GMT -6
Mr it dc - I didn't introduce the bill - this is a DP board, and that's DP legislation - are you saying these folks are unfounded in their opinion? it's feel good legislation nothing more. cost is not the main issue to continuing investigations, lack of evidence is. read it again, closer this time. don't care what these folks opinions are, the question to you was, do you really believe costs spent on DP apppeals won't go to LWOP appeals when DP is done? so where are the savings? Very good points! lwop inmates have the right to numerous appeals as well to lessen their sentences!
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Post by furoraceltica on Feb 3, 2009 7:36:09 GMT -6
This is a complete straw man argument. "We can execute criminals, or we can investigate unsolved cases". Ever consider you could have both? Also, just because you throw more money at unsolved cases doesn't mean they will be resolved.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 3, 2009 9:10:49 GMT -6
Erick, you are an animal, love the idea though, how would it be regulated to ensure that kids dont watch it. Lisa, excellent post on the comparisons, i too would be interested in that as ive just read a BBC report on the steady rise of murder in the uk. Apparently, on an average day in the UK, two or three people will be murdered. The Uk currently has the homicide rate equivalent to the mid-victorian times but still higher then that on 19997 when the New labour Government came to power. For a more indept look at the figures and report go to WWW.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/12/teen_homicide.htmlWhat a sad indictment of our once peaceful and multi-cultural society. 1050 a year. Shyte, thats shocked me. Right its snowing hard down my way so im off to make snowman for my little girl who dissapeared under the snow when she fell down this morning. , god i would have loved to see that. Take care all, be good, be nice and be safe.
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Post by Donnie on Feb 7, 2009 10:13:43 GMT -6
There will be no savings to apply. All of the resources used now for DP cases will be immediately shifted to life imprisonment cases. The net result will be more unsolved murders because more murderers will be on the street.
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Post by Donnie on Feb 7, 2009 10:18:43 GMT -6
How many appeals to LWOP folks get compared to DP folks? Now, or when there are no DP cases to appeal? The do-gooders just want to have murderers punished as little as possible. As long as there are possible executions they will force money to be spent to save the lives of murderers. When there are no more executions possible, they will force money to be spent to get more murderers back on the street. Since those sentenced to LWOP live longer than those on Death Row, the costs will go up.
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Post by HANGMAN1981 on Feb 8, 2009 3:37:50 GMT -6
How many appeals to LWOP folks get compared to DP folks? Now, or when there are no DP cases to appeal? The do-gooders just want to have murderers punished as little as possible. As long as there are possible executions they will force money to be spent to save the lives of murderers. When there are no more executions possible, they will force money to be spent to get more murderers back on the street. Since those sentenced to LWOP live longer than those on Death Row, the costs will go up. Excellent statement! This bill will do nothing more than chip away at the justice system in Colorado. It is criminal justice; not criminal welfare.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 11:30:17 GMT -6
Colorado might be onto something, although I’m not convinced throwing money at attempting to solve old crimes is it ~ generally unsolved crimes are unsolved because of lack of evidence to begin with. I’d imagine such evidence as there may be (eye witnesses, etc) is also reduced with age. However, the monies could possibly be better spent on catching and prosecuting those present cases than doling death at a few murderers.
It’s interesting to compare New York’s murder rates with Texas, for example.
New York, without use of the death penalty, spent monies on more and better policing, during the same period that TX executed 396 murderers. Between 1996 and 2005, 22 police officers murdered in NY, while in TX (with a population only slightly larger than NY) 48 police officers were murdered. And, New York’s murder rates (4.8 in 06) were decreased over that of Texas (5.9 in 06).
Bottom line: more, and better, policing means catching more criminals (across the board ~ including murderers, and including some of those ones with a possible past history of violence) AND protecting the very people policing ~ a much more efficient and proactive crime prevention method than ‘maybe, if you're very unlucky, in ten or twenty years, we’ll give you a meal of your choosing, a chance to repent, and an opportunity to tell us to go to hell, along with a humane death'.
IMNHO
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Post by mel77 on Feb 8, 2009 12:47:41 GMT -6
If it is reasonable to say that many of the unsolved crimes could be solved with more ressources, those resources should be spent in addition to what is being spent on carry out death penalty sentences.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 15:04:28 GMT -6
I was curious about the NY example. I found the same expressed in several articles that googled up, and the same kind of analyses on lots of anti-DP websites too. But there were other things that caught my eye too. The last year I could find criminal justices expenditures by state was 2003. In 2003, NY had a per capita criminal justice expenditure of 266 with 14.2% of its budget going to criminal justice TX per capita criminal justice expenditure 192 in 2003, with 12.4 % of its budget going to criminal justice. Criminal justice expenditures includes the total of policing, corrections and court expenditures. www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/jeeus03.pdf Then I looked at murder rates - highest murder rates for NY and TX seemed to be in 1990 and 1991. In 1991 murder rate in NY was 14.2 and TX was 15.3 In 2007 NY was 4.2 (decreased 10%) In 2007 TX was 5.9 (decreased 9.4%, almost as much) Then I asked myself, was it really due to extra money spent on policing that reduced the number of police murders in NY? Or were there other factors that may have contributed about the same time too? I personally believe that it probably had a lot to do with the Federal government having passed the law in 1994 - providing grants for prison construction to states that require inmates to serve 85 percent of their terms. So 1994 was about the beginning of that time when most states began to have more violent offenders serving longer terms. By 1996 or so, it might be that the effects of that were beginning to be felt? Because of that, I don't believe it is valid to say that the cost savings of doing away with the DP had to do with any of it. What did they save? They still spend more per capita on total criminal justice than TX does. I bet they still have appeals courts too - appeals are not limited to DP cases. There was a lot more at play in NY than just ending the DP. And Texas had nearly the equivalent drop in total homicide rates during 1991 to 2007 while, as far as I can tell, spending less per capita on total criminal justice efforts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 15:15:22 GMT -6
It is hard to imagine anything worse than being murdered while neighbors do nothing. But something worse exists. When those same neighbors shrink back from justly punishing the murderer, the victim dies twice. Edward I. Koch on the Death Penalty
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 23:31:15 GMT -6
I was curious about the NY example. I found the same expressed in several articles that googled up, and the same kind of analyses on lots of anti-DP websites too. But there were other things that caught my eye too. The last year I could find criminal justices expenditures by state was 2003. In 2003, NY had a per capita criminal justice expenditure of 266 with 14.2% of its budget going to criminal justice TX per capita criminal justice expenditure 192 in 2003, with 12.4 % of its budget going to criminal justice. Criminal justice expenditures includes the total of policing, corrections and court expenditures. www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/jeeus03.pdf Okay, but what if we look at the breakdown of employees within those expenditure categories: NY spent 49% of that budget on police protection. TX ~ 38%. NY spent 17.3% of it's budget on judicial and legal, TX ~ 15.7%. NY spent 33.7% of it's budget on corrections, TX ~ 45.5%. 9.4% is almost as much as 10%. It’s .6 per 100,000 or 6 per 1,000,000 or a difference of 60 murders per 10,000,000. In 1990 the murder rate in NY was 14.5 and TX was 14.1. Going by this year (and 2007), NY decreased 10.3%, while TX decreased 8.2%, just over a 2% difference. A 2% difference means 2 murders per 100,000, 20 per 1,000,000, 200 per 10,000,000, 400 per 20,000,000. That’s still just the difference in the decrease. If we only look at present murder rates ~ NY with 4.2 and TX with 5.9 murder rates, we’re ‘only’ talking about a difference of 1.7 per 100,000 or 170 more murders per 10,000,000 in TX than in NY in 2007 alone. Quite possibly. Still, better policing likely means more creepazoids caught. That's a reasonable guess. Catch more, prosecute more, incarcerate more. The question I keep asking myself is, 'why, if the death penalty is the deterrent it's purported to be, are more than double the police officers in TX (where they're more likely to get a death sentence) being killed than in NY'? Well, sure. No one thing alone, but rather, a few factors, makes perfect sense. The same would hold true for TX, though, wouldn't it ~ *if* they chose to incarcerate their incarcerated for 85% of the sentences passed? Last I checked, TX inmates (on average) serve less than 50% of their sentence. Is that changed? *IF* so, then TX has that same boast as NY, doesn’t it? ~~ which would make the 85% time served a wash ~ just as if I were comparing NY to CA which has the ‘boast’ of incarcerating perps for 85% of their sentences and offers a death sentence to boot . *If* not, if I were a Texan, I’d be asking ‘why the hell not?’ I wasn't actually suggesting they saved money (or that they don't have appeals courts) ~ that'd be absurd. What I did suggest is that they've put their money where it counts ~ or certainly seems to. Surely we don’t save lives and money. Unfortunately, it’s been my experience that when the two compete ~ lives vs money ~ the latter too often takes precedence. Of course. If the death penalty (and executions) is the thang it's cracked up to be, then surely none of the measures that other states throw at crime ~ including money, including more police, including lengthier sentences, would hold a candle to the great state of TX and it's execution chamber. Yet, there it is. You can use 91 because it better suits your argument and I can use 90 because it better suits mine........... but, I think we can agree that there’s no 'win' until there aren’t murder rates to compare. *sigh*
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 23:39:26 GMT -6
It is hard to imagine anything worse than being murdered while neighbors do nothing. But something worse exists. When those same neighbors shrink back from justly punishing the murderer, the victim dies twice. Edward I. Koch on the Death Penalty Dear Eddie, When neighbors blindly seek what they believe to be 'just' ~ ignoring what may reduce the number of murder victims who'll join that victim, in pursuit of said 'justice' ~ tis then that the victim dies twice.
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