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Post by furoraceltica on Dec 31, 2008 17:14:36 GMT -6
This is an intertesting story from a DP point of view. Two Iraqi insurgents murdered two British soldiers, and were then captured by the British army and detained. The Iraqi government asked for them to be handed over, and of course they could face execution (rightly so). The European Union "Human Rights" court in Strasbourg demanded that everything be done to protect the "human rights" of the terrorist killers. Thats not news, the EU always sides with terrorists and killers. What is news, is that, for once, the British Army ignored the EU courts demand and handed them over anyway. Full story at the link below uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20081231/tuk-murder-accused-handed-to-iraqi-autho-dba1618.htmlThoughts?
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Post by Lisa on Dec 31, 2008 17:19:20 GMT -6
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Post by Californian on Dec 31, 2008 17:23:02 GMT -6
Bet all the troopers have a pretty decent beer blast when the miscreants get their heads lopped off at the Mosque Friday noon. ;D
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Post by Lisa on Dec 31, 2008 17:41:48 GMT -6
Bet all the troopers have a pretty decent beer blast when the miscreants get their heads lopped off at the Mosque Friday noon. ;D We call 'em beer busts where I come from.
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Post by wrench on Dec 31, 2008 17:49:38 GMT -6
right on british army. i hope this sets a precedence. the EU has an inflated self importance.
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Post by furoraceltica on Jan 1, 2009 5:54:56 GMT -6
right on british army. i hope this sets a precedence. the EU has an inflated self importance. I too hope this sets a precedent. The EU constantly comes galloping to the rescue of rapists, terrorists and serial killers under the camouflage of "human rights". The British Army quite rightly ignored its orders. You know the court ordered the British army that if it captured Bin Laden, it should only hand over Bin Laden to the US if it agreed to "respect his human rights" and not execute him.
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Jan 1, 2009 17:39:07 GMT -6
Thats not news, the EU always sides with terrorists and killers. What is news, is that, for once, the British Army ignored the EU courts demand and handed them over anyway. The EU sides with terrorists, ya... Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Lybia etc. side with terrorists, the EU simply doesn't kill them. There's a slight difference. And that the British army handed them over is very, very poor of them. Did the (still) current US administration find the ruling of the Supreme Court granting the inmates at Guantanamo more rights good? No, but it was a court ruling they had to accept because that's how it works in a civilized society and a good government accepts that there are limits to its power. I understand the reasons of the British forces but it's still wrong. They could have negotiated a treaty with Iraq that noone in British custody who is handed over to Iraq gets the DP. They knew this problem and seemed to have ignored it. Their personal opinions about that problem don't matter. And, please, get your information right. The European Human Rights Court is not an organ of the EU. It is a court founded to enforce the European Human Rights Charta which was passed by the Council of Europe which is not an organ of the EU as well. You're EU-bashing doesn't make sense here.
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Jan 1, 2009 17:55:24 GMT -6
The European Union is rubbish and nearly all Europeans agree. I consider myself British not European. I live on an island and am quite happy to do so. I remember butter mountains and beef mountains sanctioned by the EU in order to keep the prices high to the consumer. I also remember stupid edicts like we should have straight bananas...WTF? ? The Common Market as it used to be called is pants. It is run solely in the interests of the French farmers who make and enforce most of the decisions. The whole thing is a money pit fuelling mostly corrupt ministers who do little for their representative countries. In the words of Blott (a character from 'Blott on the Landscape' by Tom Sharpe) - we as British should not be asking what we can do for the EU, we should be asking what the feck they do for us. Will Britain ever adopt the Euro as its currency? If put to the vote I can almost guarantee not. I admit we are a selfish nation. We used to rule half the world and there are some who still think we do. But we are a proud people. Proud of our heritage, proud of our island, and proud of our natural reserve. Do we want to be classed as European - I think not. Would Americans sanction being goverened from another country? Would the people accept a ruling made in say, Argentina, that told them they had to support the production of corned beef to the tune of billions of dollars? I very much doubt it. They would be up in arms, and rightly so. I am sure the EU has its uses, but I can think of none that make my life better.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2009 18:47:02 GMT -6
We extradited an accused double murderer by the name of Tony Mokbel back from Greece last year before his appeal to the European Commission on Human Rights could be heard. He is now trying to use that to get the two murder charges dropped.
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Jan 2, 2009 3:28:34 GMT -6
The European Union is rubbish and nearly all Europeans agree. I consider myself British not European. I live on an island and am quite happy to do so. I remember butter mountains and beef mountains sanctioned by the EU in order to keep the prices high to the consumer. I also remember stupid edicts like we should have straight bananas...WTF? ? The Common Market as it used to be called is pants. It is run solely in the interests of the French farmers who make and enforce most of the decisions. The whole thing is a money pit fuelling mostly corrupt ministers who do little for their representative countries. In the words of Blott (a character from 'Blott on the Landscape' by Tom Sharpe) - we as British should not be asking what we can do for the EU, we should be asking what the feck they do for us. Will Britain ever adopt the Euro as its currency? If put to the vote I can almost guarantee not. I admit we are a selfish nation. We used to rule half the world and there are some who still think we do. But we are a proud people. Proud of our heritage, proud of our island, and proud of our natural reserve. Do we want to be classed as European - I think not. Would Americans sanction being goverened from another country? Would the people accept a ruling made in say, Argentina, that told them they had to support the production of corned beef to the tune of billions of dollars? I very much doubt it. They would be up in arms, and rightly so. I am sure the EU has its uses, but I can think of none that make my life better. I don't know why the British complain. They pay much less than any other nation in the EU. As long as it is that way they should not get too loud about money. The ones who pay most per capita are the Dutch.
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Jan 2, 2009 3:44:25 GMT -6
At one time we paid the most. Maggie Thatcher negotiated the refund we receive every year way back in the 80's, probably because we get sod all out of it. I think the farmers get subsidies, but that is about it.
The Dutch people should get their leaders to tell the EU to start giving some money back to them. If Britain can do then other countries can too.
We are a very insular people Honey, we voted to join the EU in the 70's, but we were told there would be benefits. Maybe there are, but I personally see none.
Maybe I should be a farmer.......
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Jan 2, 2009 5:44:14 GMT -6
No doubt farmers get most out of the EU budget but it lead to stable and cheap prices for food. The British discount was negotiated because Britain has a smaller agricultural sector than most European countries. So actually Britain doesn't give subsidies to French farmers because their contribution to the EU approximately reflects their profit. I don't doubt as well that maybe Britain is less dependend on a common market since the British economy is not that export ortientated as the German one is for example. But still it has got advantages for the British. Britain has a big financial sector and because of the common market it is pretty easy for every EU-European to open an account in Great Britain without red tape caused by customs etc. And the EU has lead to the longest era of peace within Europe. This is not meant to be offensive but I think the EU bashing in Britain really has to do with the self picture of the people there. Many don't have realized or don't want to realize that Britain alone is not a world power anymore. It's still a strong country, especially militarily, but the age of "Britannia rule the waves" is over. I guess it's hard for the people to accept it but that's how it has always been. Superpowers rise and fall so it's a logical consequence to stick together and to make some compromises so the common goals can be achieved. Sometimes it's hard, especially now as Israel fights the Hamas and our Chancellor said that it's the Hamas' fault that Israel reacted like this (which is my opinion as well) but the EU says both sides have to return to negotiations and cease fire (which is wrong, I think, since Israel has to weaken the Hamas first). I don't like everything done by the EU as well but I appreciate the benefits of it which are great. The EU needs reforms to make it more democratic but those reforms are always blocked by those who criticize the EU as undemocratic. The Parliament needs more power which would cost influence of the individual governments though which is not wanted by EU skeptical countries. But that's the only way to make it democratic since I don't have an influence on the French government but I have influence on the European Parliament because I can vote. As I said it was not meant to be offensive and I hope it's not taken like that. Have a nice day!
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Tim S
Old Hand
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Post by Tim S on Jan 2, 2009 6:12:14 GMT -6
The European Union is rubbish and nearly all Europeans agree. I consider myself British not European. I live on an island and am quite happy to do so. I remember butter mountains and beef mountains sanctioned by the EU in order to keep the prices high to the consumer. I also remember stupid edicts like we should have straight bananas...WTF? ? The Common Market as it used to be called is pants. It is run solely in the interests of the French farmers who make and enforce most of the decisions. The whole thing is a money pit fuelling mostly corrupt ministers who do little for their representative countries. In the words of Blott (a character from 'Blott on the Landscape' by Tom Sharpe) - we as British should not be asking what we can do for the EU, we should be asking what the feck they do for us. Will Britain ever adopt the Euro as its currency? If put to the vote I can almost guarantee not. I admit we are a selfish nation. We used to rule half the world and there are some who still think we do. But we are a proud people. Proud of our heritage, proud of our island, and proud of our natural reserve. Do we want to be classed as European - I think not. Would Americans sanction being goverened from another country? Would the people accept a ruling made in say, Argentina, that told them they had to support the production of corned beef to the tune of billions of dollars? I very much doubt it. They would be up in arms, and rightly so. I am sure the EU has its uses, but I can think of none that make my life better. After the turmoil of the past few months the USA is the most state run capitalist country in the world. Well live in the past and the rest of us will try and do something about the future.
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Jan 2, 2009 11:05:35 GMT -6
No doubt farmers get most out of the EU budget but it lead to stable and cheap prices for food. The British discount was negotiated because Britain has a smaller agricultural sector than most European countries. So actually Britain doesn't give subsidies to French farmers because their contribution to the EU approximately reflects their profit. I don't doubt as well that maybe Britain is less dependend on a common market since the British economy is not that export ortientated as the German one is for example. But still it has got advantages for the British. Britain has a big financial sector and because of the common market it is pretty easy for every EU-European to open an account in Great Britain without red tape caused by customs etc. And the EU has lead to the longest era of peace within Europe. This is not meant to be offensive but I think the EU bashing in Britain really has to do with the self picture of the people there. Many don't have realized or don't want to realize that Britain alone is not a world power anymore. It's still a strong country, especially militarily, but the age of "Britannia rule the waves" is over. I guess it's hard for the people to accept it but that's how it has always been. Superpowers rise and fall so it's a logical consequence to stick together and to make some compromises so the common goals can be achieved. Sometimes it's hard, especially now as Israel fights the Hamas and our Chancellor said that it's the Hamas' fault that Israel reacted like this (which is my opinion as well) but the EU says both sides have to return to negotiations and cease fire (which is wrong, I think, since Israel has to weaken the Hamas first). I don't like everything done by the EU as well but I appreciate the benefits of it which are great. The EU needs reforms to make it more democratic but those reforms are always blocked by those who criticize the EU as undemocratic. The Parliament needs more power which would cost influence of the individual governments though which is not wanted by EU skeptical countries. But that's the only way to make it democratic since I don't have an influence on the French government but I have influence on the European Parliament because I can vote. As I said it was not meant to be offensive and I hope it's not taken like that. Have a nice day! Honey, I don't take offence at all. I actually agree with most of what you said. If you read an earlier post of mine you will see that I stated that we are an insular nation who do still believe we rule half the world. We consist of 4 countries who are actually breaking away from one another. Scotland has its own parliament and its own laws. The Welsh are the same. Ireland is another matter entirely and I will not comment on that. In fact there are many Scots who refuse to even acknowledge Great Britain as a nation and will not give up their identity. I call myself British, my best friend will only acknowledge herself as Scottish. I do not feel European and I doubt I ever will. Maybe the EU has kept peace in Europe for almost 70 years, but can we be sure that peace would not have happened anyway? If you support the EU, then fair enough. I personally do not. Let's not fall out about it ; we will just agree to differ on this point.
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Post by ltdc on Jan 2, 2009 11:39:59 GMT -6
Would Americans sanction being goverened from another country? Would the people accept a ruling made in say, Argentina, that told them they had to support the production of corned beef to the tune of billions of dollars? I very much doubt it. They would be up in arms, and rightly so. precisely the reason normal, thinking Americans have NO use for the United Nations. but President Hussein?.........we'll see. up in arms? also we'll see, as that is the first thing the United Nations wants to do to Americans
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Jan 2, 2009 11:45:04 GMT -6
Honey, I don't take offence at all. I actually agree with most of what you said. If you read an earlier post of mine you will see that I stated that we are an insular nation who do still believe we rule half the world. We consist of 4 countries who are actually breaking away from one another. Scotland has its own parliament and its own laws. The Welsh are the same. Ireland is another matter entirely and I will not comment on that. In fact there are many Scots who refuse to even acknowledge Great Britain as a nation and will not give up their identity. I call myself British, my best friend will only acknowledge herself as Scottish. I do not feel European and I doubt I ever will. Maybe the EU has kept peace in Europe for almost 70 years, but can we be sure that peace would not have happened anyway? If you support the EU, then fair enough. I personally do not. Let's not fall out about it ; we will just agree to differ on this point. When a good friend of mine was in Scotland England played against Germany and everybody there supported Germany and boohed at every English action. ;D But since New Year's I have some problems with Scotland. Mr. Glenfiddich was very mean to me.
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Jan 2, 2009 11:48:10 GMT -6
it was that nasty russian Mr Smirnoff who hated me this year
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Jan 2, 2009 13:01:23 GMT -6
it was that nasty russian Mr Smirnoff who hated me this year Yeah, thank God hang overs just last one day. I got a good advice today that I should go to the pharmacy and buy some pills that you take when you have a stomach flu. There are many minerals in that to prevent dehydration when people have diarrhea. I was told if you take one of those before going to bed and one the next morning you're clear. But I'm not going to test it that soon.
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Post by Matt on Jan 2, 2009 16:17:51 GMT -6
We are a very insular people Honey, we voted to join the EU in the 70's, but we were told there would be benefits. Maybe there are, but I personally see none. Maybe I should be a farmer....... Well, American farmers are very well subsidized in their own right, so we can't really complain about anything going in the EU relative to agricultural protectionism...but I'm sure we try anyway. ;D Still, taking one area of EU economics, it's hard to argue that the euro has been anything other than a tremendous success. It is now the second choice currency reserve behind the dollar, and its appeal continues to grow. While I believe the EU remains deeply flawed, whenever I hear this assertion I have to think back to all of the British pundits who predicted it would live a very short and miserable life. People may not like it, but it's probably here to stay. Maybe that's the unfortunate part.
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gillypod
Old Hand
PRO-DP Scot. PTO hates me - I am blessed
Posts: 596
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Post by gillypod on Jan 2, 2009 16:25:46 GMT -6
Actually Matt, I do not disagree. However the Brits are a people who believe they are autonomous and will never accept the Euro.
With the state of the British economy at present, the time may come when we HAVE to adopt the euro, but as a Brit I can tell you that we will fight it all the way.
We will do this for no other reason than we are bloody-minded.
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Post by furoraceltica on Jan 3, 2009 17:19:19 GMT -6
No doubt farmers get most out of the EU budget but it lead to stable and cheap prices for food. Actually we don't get cheap food. We pay £20 more per week than we should on food because of EU subsidies to farmers.
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Post by Matt on Jan 3, 2009 18:56:53 GMT -6
Actually Matt, I do not disagree. However the Brits are a people who believe they are autonomous and will never accept the Euro. Don't worry, Gilly, I'm sure there's another French king in Britain's future someday! ;D
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Post by furoraceltica on Jan 7, 2009 6:16:22 GMT -6
Thats not news, the EU always sides with terrorists and killers. What is news, is that, for once, the British Army ignored the EU courts demand and handed them over anyway. And, please, get your information right. The European Human Rights Court is not an organ of the EU. It is a court founded to enforce the European Human Rights Charta which was passed by the Council of Europe which is not an organ of the EU as well. You're EU-bashing doesn't make sense here. The Council of Europe is mostly composed of EU members. Hence the charter the ECHR enforces is an EU document.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2009 6:18:51 GMT -6
Europe don´t protect us from terrorists, but protect terrorists from justice. Europe will be a terrible terrorist nest or it is already.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 3, 2009 6:50:51 GMT -6
Just spoke to a mate of mine from Hereford Garrison and he said that the terrorists were caught fighting in a military theatre. Basically the EU directive has absolutely no authority over such military operations and the Army can do as it please. He did mention that we are covered by various other treaties etc such as the Geneva convention but he said the Iraqies were iraqies and even though caught by the British Army they are Iraqies and therefore the Army had no choice but to turn them over to Iraqi authorities. So Peanuts, With all due respect mate , up yours Like i've said a thousand times before the EU to the Brits is a plague on out culture and we will be out of it or on the fringes within ten years. he did also add, Hard F***ing luck too.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 3, 2009 7:00:11 GMT -6
TimS, Peanuts, please, if you want your European Utopia, please by all means have it, Gilly pond has said it all. Watch this years European elections and see how many BNP members win seats, My friend with us you are losing a battle you can not win. We joined an economic union way back not a social union that has crept upon us through many back doors and signed for by various governments who promised us a referendum. None of these referendums came because they all know that they would lose.
We British are Insular and Matt i don't agree, even in todays financial climate, we will never agree to the Euro. If we do, make room because i will be emigrating to America or Canada, Australia or New Zealand. I love Europe and its diversity and cultures but i do not and never will agree to a social union. Too many different languages, too many different cultures and to much protectionism. Also i might add, we pay only less then Germany actually. We pay more then France too.
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Post by honeyroastedpeanut on Mar 3, 2009 10:08:30 GMT -6
TimS, Peanuts, please, if you want your European Utopia, please by all means have it, Gilly pond has said it all. Watch this years European elections and see how many BNP members win seats, My friend with us you are losing a battle you can not win. We joined an economic union way back not a social union that has crept upon us through many back doors and signed for by various governments who promised us a referendum. None of these referendums came because they all know that they would lose. We British are Insular and Matt i don't agree, even in todays financial climate, we will never agree to the Euro. If we do, make room because i will be emigrating to America or Canada, Australia or New Zealand. I love Europe and its diversity and cultures but i do not and never will agree to a social union. Too many different languages, too many different cultures and to much protectionism. Also i might add, we pay only less then Germany actually. We pay more then France too. Nobody should be forced to stay inside. If some don't want it, they should be able to leave. BTW this was an essential part of the treaty of Lisboa, an exit-clause. I don't want a full social union as well; social security and criminal law should remain with the individual member states. I want a European army though because it would save money. A model that allows each signing state an army of their own of around 50.000-100.000 soldiers to keep up their military traditions but the rest should be a common force; the language should be English then because it's easier than French or German. This would bring things forward but again, nobody should be forced. If the Brits want the Norwegian or Swiss model for them, that's OK with me. Although the argument of the economic union is not fully valid since the ECs have always been a communities with the perspective of a stronger unification. The EU is now just a transition stage in between, a - to some extent - flawed compromise. Furthermore the British have signed the Maastricht treaty. I do understand your point though, Lawrence. The wish to stay independent is an argument I respect. It's just this Anti-EU blabla in which the EU is mixed up with the European Council, the European Court for Human Rights with the European Court of Justice etc that I dislike. If people criticize the EU, they will find good reasons for that (like you did) without making stupid propaganda (like some people do). Still I would bet that if the EU was an easier and more transparent construct, the criticism wouldn't be that huge in some countries after all.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 6, 2009 2:16:16 GMT -6
Peanuts, We joined a Economic Union not a social union and time after time various UK governments have promised us a referendum, including this bloody maastrict treaty. They lied. The Labour Government promised us a referendum and they didnt give us it because they knew they would loose. I cant wait for the next general Election here, labour have gone to far over the edge of reason for them to be re elected. When they go (soon i hope) we will get the Tories in and they will give the people the referendum.
As for a European Army. NO WAY DUDE. Not unless we are in command of it. You guys are to afraid to use weapons in any conflict, why i dont know, get over the war please and get back on the horse. France, apart from their Foreigne Legion i wouldnt give their Army the time of day. The Italians are a joke as are the Spanish, the Dutch Marines are pretty good other then that their Army is none existent. Name me an Army in Europe other then ours with experience in War on a winning level consistently. Our own Army is only 140,000 total, we have an AirForce of 60,000 and a Navy of 90,000. So our strength is less then 300,000. That is not enough in my eyes for our own defence let alone Europes.
The point is Europe have tried and succeeded to an extent in changing the political landscape through backhanded tactics saying its not a treaty etc etc. I dont like being told what to do by unelected burocrats who have no idea about our history, culture and people. Were fiercely independent and we dont like being told what to do or pushed around. We dont bend over to anyone no matter who they are. We never will, Europe is fine economically, it does benefits us all, social union is a utopia that will never come about with us in it. Not a hope. As for the Euro currency, Not a chance. Let any government try and see how long they last.
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Post by lawrence on Mar 6, 2009 2:19:42 GMT -6
Going back to the debate, the brits were correct in handing over these scummers. terrorists are terrorists and have no leagal protection what so ever just like mercenaries, they should be treated accordingly. The Human Rights act has not durestriction at all in a warzone. None and it shouldnt.
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Tim S
Old Hand
Posts: 567
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Post by Tim S on Mar 6, 2009 3:14:03 GMT -6
Lawrence remember my country still has the Skr ( Svenska kronor ) and not the euro. However it is the £ and the skr which are taking the greatest bashing in Europe at the present time.
I voted no to us joining the EU and no to the Euro, like you I see more money going out and less coming in. What we have got is a huge and uncontrolable mass of " civil servants" wasting money. So I'm with you on this one.
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