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Post by fuglyville on May 28, 2016 10:34:39 GMT -6
Cons: The death penalty doesn't deter further murders It's a huge drain on limited public funds Innocent people have been executed before and will be executed again It's a huge toll on those involved in the process. It's incredibly biased against African-Americans and the poor.
Pros: Apparently, watching other people die makes some people happy
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Post by kma367 on May 28, 2016 21:52:10 GMT -6
"The death penalty doesn't deter further murders" It's not meant to deter further murders. It's a punishment for the crime of murder. "It's a huge drain on limited public funds" That is a result of the appellate process and is equally applicable to any criminal conviction. "Innocent people have been executed before and will be executed again" This is typical anti-DP propaganda. The anti-DP movement has never conclusively proven that any innocent has ever been executed since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976. "It's a huge toll on those involved in the process." That is a result of the appellate process. "It's incredibly biased against African-Americans and the poor." This is also typical anti-DP propaganda. In 2016, the majority of those executed have been white males. www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2016
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 8:43:11 GMT -6
The bias in the death penalty is actually against white males.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 8:45:08 GMT -6
The toll on people involved in the judicial process is higher when there is no death penalty for murder. That is because they still face the same negative consequences during the initial trial and then have to face it again at every parole hearing.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 8:47:36 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!!! The most important benefit of the death penalty is that it demonstrates a quest (however weak) for justice.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 8:49:06 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!!
An important advantage of the death penalty is that it prevents murderers from killing again.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 8:56:08 GMT -6
The drain on public funds caused by the devotion to murderers is not reduced by eliminating the death penalty. Almost all resources currently expended on preventing the just execution of murderers would immediately be transferred to getting convicted murderers back on the street as quickly as possible. Even before the abolition of the DP, anti-DP crusaders are deeply involved in the elimination of life without parole, referring to LWOP as "the other death penalty." At least one anti-DP crusader has admitted that LWOP was always a fraud, intended only to ease the transition from the DP to early release of murderers.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 9:01:28 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. An important advantage of the death penalty is that is that it helps murderers recognized the significance of their crimes and helps them to focus on their need to save their souls. Even anti-DP crusader Helen Prejean recognized this advantage. Murderers about to be executed have sometimes alluded to that benefit.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 9:04:10 GMT -6
The anti-DP movement has never conclusively proven that any innocent has ever been executed since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976. Excellent point. On the other hand hundreds of innocent people have been killed by murderers who were not executed after their first murder conviction.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 9:07:49 GMT -6
Pros: Apparently, watching other people die makes some people happy False. The people who are happy to watch other people die are murderers, especially those who know that they won't face the death penalty. The people who are happy to see murderers get additional chances to kill are DP opponents.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 6, 2016 9:26:54 GMT -6
Cons: It's incredibly biased against African-Americans and the poor. As the black genius, Dr. Thomas Sowell has pointed out, there are natural numerical variations in all random processes. For example if a fair coin is flipped ten times it is not unusual for a numerical variation in favor of heads over tails of 7 to 3 or even 8 to 2. But the most thorough analysis possible of each of the ten coin flips will not reveal any prejudice or bias against tails. There are also many numerical variations in the effects of homicide on the members of various races. For those who thrive on racial division, three such variations can be found among the effects of homicide on various races. I don’t like to address every social problem as a racial problem. But anti-DP folk are willing to use any deception available to force their personal preferences onto everyone else. Thus, racist hate mongers like to refer to the statistical variations associated with homicide as “racial disparities”. Homicide is the most personal and individualized of all crimes. But the racial hate mongers don’t want to evaluate individual cases, because they don’t ever want to miss an opportunity to play the race card. In playing the race card the racial hate mongers only refer to one “racial disparity” respecting homicide; when, in fact, there are three numerical variations associated with interracial homicide. One numerical variation is quite large. One is small. One “racial disparity” is tiny. The large disparity is that between 1976 and 2000, individual homicidal blacks have killed 15,443 more innocent whites than the number of innocent blacks that have been killed by individual homicidal whites. So, on average, the “racial disparity” in interracial homicide is about 640 per year. The small disparity is that about 20 more white murderers are executed each year than would be expected if murderers were executed in proportion to the racial participation of whites in homicides. That is a result of the sad fact that black murderers kill at an annual rate of about 7 to 8 times higher than white murderers. The tiny disparity is the number of black murderers executed for killing whites compared to the number of white murderers executed for killing blacks. That is about 2 per year. It is interesting that anti-DP folk are more interested in the disparity of 2 executed murderers each year than they are in a disparity of 2 homicides of innocent people each DAY. Of course it is only murderers who choose who they will murder. That tiny racial disparity could be corrected by executing two more white murderers each year. That would be a simple and effective racial Affirmative Action program. Much simpler and much more effective than most of the Affirmative Action programs imposed in the United States to address other racial numerical variations. Compare that tiny number (2) to the 643 excess whites killed by individual homicidal blacks each year, on average. As a white male, living in a racially mixed neighborhood in a state with the death penalty, I am all for executing a few more white murderers of blacks. In fact I would heartily approve of every white murderer of black folk being executed. As those who favor Black Power sometimes like to say, the solution to this problem is simple: "Kill whitey."
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:42:00 GMT -6
The toll on people involved in the judicial process is higher when there is no death penalty for murder. That is because they still face the same negative consequences during the initial trial and then have to face it again at every parole hearing. As long as LWOP is an alternative, there's no parole hearings - and without the death penalty, you're free from the very real suffering the execution causes for those directly involved in it; guards, executioners and the friends and relatives of the inmate.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:45:33 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!!! The most important benefit of the death penalty is that it demonstrates a quest (however weak) for justice. Justice is not fixed and decided - it could mean whatever you want it to mean, and your definition of justice is no more valid than anyone elses. The opinion that the death penalty equals justice is still merely an opinion. Even if it does give you the feeling of justice, that's not necessarily a valid reason - justice for the sake of justice alone is not a worthy goal.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:48:02 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!! An important advantage of the death penalty is that it prevents murderers from killing again. The U.S. has a disgusting rate of reoffending, despite being true fans of the DP. Statistics from other countries are significant evidence that avoiding reoffending without the death penalty is perfectly possible.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:50:48 GMT -6
The drain on public funds caused by the devotion to murderers is not reduced by eliminating the death penalty. Almost all resources currently expended on preventing the just execution of murderers would immediately be transferred to getting convicted murderers back on the street as quickly as possible. Even before the abolition of the DP, anti-DP crusaders are deeply involved in the elimination of life without parole, referring to LWOP as "the other death penalty." At least one anti-DP crusader has admitted that LWOP was always a fraud, intended only to ease the transition from the DP to early release of murderers. An unattributed quote from an anti-DP crusader is hardly evidence for anything - and the slippery slope argument is an awful one.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 7, 2016 8:53:53 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. An important advantage of the death penalty is that is that it helps murderers recognized the significance of their crimes and helps them to focus on their need to save their souls. Even anti-DP crusader Helen Prejean recognized this advantage. Murderers about to be executed have sometimes alluded to that benefit. The fact that people who are about to die reconsider their way of life and their actions are a well-known fact, but hardly evidence in favour of killing them. If rehabilitation was the goal, this would be of paramount importance - but as long as people like you wants them to die, I fail to see how this matters.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 7, 2016 9:59:04 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!!! Justice is not fixed and decided - it could mean whatever you want it to mean. If that is so, than no laws or justice should be applied to any crime or sentencing. Again you left out the important pro's of the DP position, not a surprise.
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Post by fuglyville on Jun 8, 2016 5:29:47 GMT -6
If that is so, than no laws or justice should be applied to any crime or sentencing. Again you left out the important pro's of the DP position, not a surprise. But seeing as you have ignored the equally important cons of the DP position, I guess that makes us equals
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 8:46:48 GMT -6
But seeing as you have ignored the equally important cons of the DP position, I guess that makes us equals You and Whitediamonds are not even close to equal. After all she didn't enter this forum to argue her point with a lie, as you did and what a horrendous lie you arrived with. That's right fugly, you have clouded your whole debate from the very beginning with a terrible terrible lie. Not just one lie but many many lies. Now go away. You are totally irrelevant.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 8, 2016 9:48:50 GMT -6
But seeing as you have ignored the equally important cons of the DP position, I guess that makes us equals Actually fuglyville I did not ignore the con's position you posted. By likes shown I agree with Kma367 & Donnie's posting on this thread, so do I need to say more?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 8, 2016 12:28:29 GMT -6
[quote timestamp="1465315144" source="/post/627866/thread" author "]But seeing as you have ignored the equally important cons of the DP position Actually again, it makes me laugh the term/word you used the "importance of the con's position". Clearly you do love con's, like to see them murder people, even allow the opportunity to murder again. Kinda like someone who gets off by watching others have sex??
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Post by Donnie on Jun 10, 2016 4:40:03 GMT -6
The drain on public funds caused by the devotion to murderers is not reduced by eliminating the death penalty. Almost all resources currently expended on preventing the just execution of murderers would immediately be transferred to getting convicted murderers back on the street as quickly as possible. Even before the abolition of the DP, anti-DP crusaders are deeply involved in the elimination of life without parole, referring to LWOP as "the other death penalty." At least one anti-DP crusader has admitted that LWOP was always a fraud, intended only to ease the transition from the DP to early release of murderers. An unattributed quote from an anti-DP crusader is hardly evidence for anything - and the slippery slope argument is an awful one. There was no "slippery slope argument". As noted in my initial comment, the anti-DP crusaders have already shifted some resources to attacking LWOP. Those attacks have been in progress for more than 5 years. There is even an organization dedicated to eliminating LWOP called "The Other Death Penalty Project". As for the unattributed quote; "This [replacing the DP with LWOP] was always a strategy, not a principle," an interesting question is why the quote was unattributed. But the fact that the quote is unattributed is a minor issue given the thrust of the article that includes the quote. The quote is consistent with the context of the article in the October 2011 issue of The Progressive magazine. The article, by Louis J. Rodriguez, is titled "Don't Throw Away the Key, Why Life Without Parole is Cruel and Unusual." The entire article is dedicated to expounding a justification for eliminating LWOP. A later quote, attributed to Sam Quinones of the Los Angeles Times, is equally telling: "Like many anti-death penalty adherents, I once thought that life without the possibility of parole was a good alternative to the death penalty. . . . All too many of those working to end the death penalty share the misconceptions and faulty reasoning I once used." So the evidence is the entire article and the actual body of work by anti-LWOP crusaders.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 10, 2016 4:49:48 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. An important advantage of the death penalty is that is that it helps murderers recognized the significance of their crimes and helps them to focus on their need to save their souls. Even anti-DP crusader Helen Prejean recognized this advantage. Murderers about to be executed have sometimes alluded to that benefit. The fact that people who are about to die reconsider their way of life and their actions are a well-known fact, but hardly evidence in favour of killing them. If rehabilitation was the goal, this would be of paramount importance - but as long as people like you wants them to die, I fail to see how this matters. Eternal salvation is not evidence for killing anyone, it is a benefit for convicted murderers. Convicted murderers have already provided adequate evidence in favor of killing them. If you could comprehend what Sister Prejean wrote you could see that the death-row murderers she worked with initially had little interest in reconsidering their way of life or actions. I remain fully in favor of rehabilitating murderers; once we have discovered a way to rehabilitate their victims.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 10, 2016 5:02:37 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!!! The most important benefit of the death penalty is that it demonstrates a quest (however weak) for justice. Justice is not fixed and decided - it could mean whatever you want it to mean, and your definition of justice is no more valid than anyone elses. The opinion that the death penalty equals justice is still merely an opinion. Even if it does give you the feeling of justice, that's not necessarily a valid reason - justice for the sake of justice alone is not a worthy goal. Your claims here are gibberish. The definition of justice that I rely on is the most widely accepted: fair and equal treatment. It isn't my definition, rather is the definition that has been developed through centuries of wise refinement. Also, I have never claimed that "the death penalty equals justice". That is because murderers and murder victims are never treated fairly or equally. Even when murderers are executed, the murderers are always treated much better than their victims were treated. In the cases of most executed murderers, the better treatment of the murderers is so great that it is astonishing.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 10, 2016 5:07:00 GMT -6
The toll on people involved in the judicial process is higher when there is no death penalty for murder. That is because they still face the same negative consequences during the initial trial and then have to face it again at every parole hearing. As long as LWOP is an alternative, there's no parole hearings - and without the death penalty, you're free from the very real suffering the execution causes for those directly involved in it; guards, executioners and the friends and relatives of the inmate. Murderers sentenced to LWOP have already been released. Also, as "The Other Death Penalty" organization has pointed out, any one involved in the LWOP process also suffer, and for a longer time; that includes the friends and relatives of the murderers.
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Post by Donnie on Jun 10, 2016 5:09:49 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!! An important advantage of the death penalty is that it prevents murderers from killing again. The U.S. has a disgusting rate of reoffending, despite being true fans of the DP. Statistics from other countries are significant evidence that avoiding reoffending without the death penalty is perfectly possible. No executed murderers reoffend. Without execution, there is no perfection anywhere in the avoidance of reoffending.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 14, 2016 7:24:55 GMT -6
This recent slaughter in the Orlando nightclub, brought only one good thing. This serial killer is dead, we will not have to debate over the use of the DP.
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Post by bernard on Jun 16, 2016 15:58:19 GMT -6
The bias in the death penalty is actually against white males. Then it should be ended, no? Or is a bias against white males ok?
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Post by bernard on Jun 16, 2016 15:59:25 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!! An important advantage of the death penalty is that it prevents murderers from killing again. Then let's execute those who kill through drunk driving. Same reasoning.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jun 16, 2016 16:10:07 GMT -6
The important pros of the death penalty have been left out. What a surprise!! An important advantage of the death penalty is that it prevents murderers from killing again. Then let's execute those who kill through drunk driving. Same reasoning. Not premeditated, manslaughter. Never heard of a drunk facing the DP. No matter how many casualties.
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