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Post by nils on Dec 29, 2015 5:37:27 GMT -6
Who killed the death penalty? Many suspects are implicated in capital punishment’s ongoing demise. But one stands out
EXHIBIT A is the corpses. Or rather, the curious paucity of them: like the dog that didn’t bark in Sherlock Holmes, the bodies are increasingly failing to materialise. Only 28 prisoners have been executed in America in 2015, the lowest number since 1991. Next, consider the dwindling rate of death sentences—most striking in Texas, which accounts for more than a third of all executions since (after a hiatus) the Supreme Court reinstated the practice in 1976. A ghoulish web page lists the inmates admitted to Texas’s death row. Only two arrived in 2015, down from 11 the previous year.
There is circumstantial evidence, too: the political kind. Jeb Bush, a Republican presidential candidate—who, as governor of Florida, oversaw 21 executions—has acknowledged feeling “conflicted” about capital punishment. Hillary Clinton, the Democratic frontrunner, said she “would breathe a sigh of relief” if it were scrapped. Contrast that stance with her husband’s return to Arkansas, during his own campaign in 1992, for the controversial execution of a mentally impaired murderer. Bernie Sanders, Mrs Clinton’s main rival, is a confirmed abolitionist. The proof is overwhelming: capital punishment is dying. Statistically and politically, it is already mortally wounded, even as it staggers through an indeterminate—but probably brief—swansong. Fairly soon, someone will be the last person to be executed in America. The reasons for this decline themselves form a suspenseful tale of locked-room intrigue, unexpected twists and unusual suspects. So, whodunnit? Who killed the death penalty?
Where politicians follow, voters often lead. Capital punishment is no longer a litmus test of political machismo because public enthusiasm for it is waning. Most Americans still favour retaining it, but that majority is narrowing. And one critical constituency—the mystery’s first prime suspect—is especially sceptical: juries. Take the case of Eric Mickelson. In 2011 a jury in Louisiana sentenced him to death for murdering and dismembering an elderly man. Problems with the original trial led to a rerun this year: the new jury gave him life without the possibility of parole. According to a tally by the Death Penalty Information Centre (DPIC), a lobby group, overall only 49 people were sentenced to death in America in 2015, the lowest total in modern records. This despite the fact that, to serve in a capital trial, a juror has to be willing in principle to hand down a death sentence. (Actually doing so can be traumatic: Stewart Dotts “had always considered myself a reasonably tough guy”, but serving on a jury that passed a death sentence in New Jersey gave him many sleepless nights. “It’s an unfair burden to place on ordinary citizens,” Mr Dotts concludes.) The widely available alternative of life without parole—which offers the certainty that a defendant can never be released—helps to explain that trend. So does the growing willingness of jurors, in their private deliberations, to weigh murderers’ backgrounds and mental illnesses; ditto the greater skill with which defence lawyers, generally better resourced and trained than in the past, muster that mitigating evidence. But the biggest reason, says Richard Dieter of the DPIC, is juries’ nervousness about imposing an irrevocable punishment. Behind that anxiety stands another, unwilling participant in the death-penalty story: the swelling, well-publicised cadre of death-row exonerees. People like Harold Wilson, who served over 16 years for a ghastly triple homicide in Philadelphia before being exonerated in 2005. A decade later he is still fighting for compensation, as well as campaigning with Witness to Innocence, an exonerees’ organisation. He has “walked through hell”, Mr Wilson says. Ironically he thinks he might still be inside, doing life, if prosecutors hadn’t overreached in their quest to kill him. It’s a “broken-down system”, he believes. In 2015 alone, six more prisoners have been freed from death row. Those mistakes implicate another suspect in the death penalty’s demise: prosecutors. The renegades who have botched capital cases—by suppressing evidence, rigging juries or concentrating on black defendants—have dragged it into disrepute. But some responsible prosecutors have also contributed, by declining to seek death in the first place. They have been abetted by another unlikely group: victims’ relatives.
Bethany Webb’s sister was among eight people killed in a Californian hair salon in 2011; her mother was shot, but survived. She wants the culprit to die “alone and unnoticed”, rather than being euthanised in an execution-night circus. The way prosecutors messed up the case—by needlessly deploying a jailhouse informant—has alerted her to the risks of injustices in others. Then there is the attritional legal rigmarole: the killer would smile at the victims’ families at court appearances, Ms Webb says; her mother is obliged to relive the trauma at each fresh hearing. A life sentence would have meant that “next time we see his face in the paper, it would be for his obituary”. To avoid that protracted agony, says James Farren, district attorney of Randall County in Texas, “a healthy percentage” of families now ask prosecutors to eschew capital punishment. Mr Farren also fingers another key player in the death-penalty drama: the American taxpayer. Capital cases are “a huge drain on resources”, spiralling costs that—especially given juries’ growing reluctance to pass a death sentence anyway—have helped to change the calculus about when to pursue one, Mr Farren says. In 2011 a Californian study estimated that death-penalty trials cost the taxpayer an extra $1m a pop. Guilty verdicts mean lengthy and pricey appeals; death-row prisoners are often incarcerated in expensive isolation. Prosecutors are sometimes explicit about the trade-off between punishment and payment: in Arizona one withdrew his bid for a death sentence, court documents show, to help the county “meet its fiscal responsibilities”. Defence lawyers can be equally frank. Katherine Scardino says that, on being appointed in Texas, “the first thing I do is, I go start spending the state’s money”—on psychologists, investigators, the lavish cast of capital trials. Ms Scardino included an estimate of the cost of going to trial in a recent plea bargain.
The mystery of the empty vial Even in vengeful Texas, she thinks, voters will eventually say of egregious villains, “Let him rot” in prison instead. Like exonerations, says Cassandra Stubbs of the American Civil Liberties Union, the exorbitant costs are a flaw that attracts widespread disapproval. They create an extra injustice: just as it was once unfair for death sentences to be reserved for the poorest criminals with the worst lawyers, so it is equally unjust for some to be spared on account of being tried in poor jurisdictions. A further upshot is an average delay between sentencing and executions that, at the last count, had risen to 16 years. The experience of Dale Cox, a prosecutor in Caddo Parish, Louisiana, is emblematic. He has been characterised as a juridical angel of death because of his outspoken advocacy of the ultimate punishment. Nobody prosecuted by Mr Cox has ever been executed. Even when the appeals are exhausted, enacting a death sentence has become almost insuperably difficult—because of an outlandish cameo by the pharmaceutical industry. Obtaining small quantities of drugs for lethal injection, long the standard method, might seem an easy task in the world’s richest country; but export bans in Europe, American import rules and the decision by domestic firms to discontinue what were less-than-lucrative sales lines has strangled the supply. Arizona’s latest chemical misadventure is typical of the resulting travails. As Dale Baich, a public defender there, puts it, with several others the state was recently caught in “a drug deal gone bad”, after it tried to buy a deadly compound from a middleman in India; the batch was impounded by federal officials at Phoenix airport. This squeeze has obliged states to experiment with new concoctions and suppliers, not all of which are reputable. Those manoeuvres have given rise to gruesomely protracted executions—and still more litigation.
Lethal injection was intended to be reassuringly bloodless, almost medicinal (as, once, was electrocution). Should it become impractical, it is unclear whether Americans will stomach a reversion to gorier methods such as gassing and shooting: they are much less popular, according to polls. The death penalty’s coup de grace may come in the form of an empty vial. Or it may be judicial rather than pharmaceutical: performed in the Supreme Court, the most obvious suspect of all. In an opinion issued in June, one of the left-leaning justices, Stephen Breyer, voiced his hunch that the death penalty’s time was up. He cited many longstanding failings: arbitrariness (its use varying widely by geography and defendants’ profiles); the delays; the questionable deterrent and retributive value; all those exonerations (Mr Breyer speculated that wrongful convictions were especially likely in capital cases, because of the pressure to solve them). He concluded that the system could be fair or purposeful, but not both. Meanwhile Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, recently said he would not be surprised to see the court strike capital punishment down.
Cue much lawyerly soothsaying about that prospect. Yet the legal denouement is already in train: a joint enterprise between state courts, legislatures and governors. Of the 19 states to have repealed the death penalty, seven have done so in the past nine years. Others have imposed moratoriums, formal or de facto, including, in 2015, Arkansas, Ohio, Oklahoma, Montana and Pennsylvania. The number that execute people—six in 2015—is small, and shrinking. (After their legislature repealed the death penalty in May, Nebraskans will vote in 2016 on reinstating it; but their state hasn’t executed anyone since 1997.) These machinations may help to provoke a mortal blow from the Supreme Court. After all, the fewer states that apply the punishment, the more “unusual”, and therefore unconstitutional, it becomes.
Juries; exonerees; prosecutors, both incompetent and pragmatic; improving defence lawyers; stingy taxpayers; exhausted victims; media-savvy drugmakers: in the strange case of the death penalty, there is a superabundance of suspects. And, rather as in “Murder on the Orient Express”, in a way, they all did it. But in a deeper sense, all these are merely accomplices. In truth capital punishment is expiring because of its own contradictions. As decades of litigation attest—and as the rest of the Western world has resolved—killing prisoners is fundamentally inconsistent with the precepts of a law-governed, civilised society. In the final verdict, America’s death penalty has killed itself.
Economist.com From the print edition: United States
Happy Holidays from Sweden Nils
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Post by Donnie on Dec 30, 2015 14:34:38 GMT -6
The actual answer is: people who are well-protected and want to put criminals, including murderers, back on the street as soon as possible.
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Post by bernard on Jan 2, 2016 21:48:01 GMT -6
Welcome back to the board Nils. Nice to see you again.
I think we can add one more to that list. A dearth of skilled pro-death penalty advocates. The arguments in favor of execution on this forum, for example, are alarmingly bad, and the people who give those arguments seem to struggle with basic argumentation.
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Post by nils on Jan 3, 2016 3:18:42 GMT -6
Hello and thanks Bernard. The apetite for executions has been fading for a long time now. The traffic on this board is only a fraction as compared to what it was 15 years ago. And I wonder why this change of mood. Is America finally on its way to leave the DP for the history books? Or shall we see a rebound?
Best wishes for 2016
Nils :-)
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Post by nils on Jan 3, 2016 3:36:42 GMT -6
... and how distant dont these quotes feel from about 15 years ago from this board: … If the child can be rehabilitated and become productive in society, then he should be given the chance. If he cannot, what purpose on earth would there be to kehep him alive?
For me death row inmates are sub humans. they are the sewer of society. They are dirty laundry and they deserve to be treated as animals. I believe that a harsh treatment a death row imates receives while waiting for his liquidation, is one aspect of his entire punishment for his deed until he goes for his appointment with the death chamber.
McGuinn is dead------Pop the Cork and time for High Fives They finally snuffed the low life piece of crap.
THIS IS THE DAY, THIS IS THE DAY, IN TEXAS, JAMES MORELAND WILL DIE--ANOTHERONE FOR THE BOOKS, FOLKS---
NO MERCY, NO COMPASSION, NO FORGIVENESS to this type of animal. I hope this guys rots in hell and every millimeter of his soul burns for eternity.
I really can't wait anymore before that low life scum, Ricky McGinn gets straped to the gurney and receives the needle. For someone who sexually assaulted and murdered his 12-years-old step-daughter, I really think he has already lived for too long. It's just time that justice arrives for him and that he would finelly pay for his deed. I hope that after his death he would simply burn in hell forever.
I hope tomorrow will be on the earth one murder less and in hell one animal more. Hey ....listen i c..o..u..l..d..n't care less of this bull*** im waiting for the next execution and imenjoying it soo much. Do you wana call it revenge? Man,I'd put the neddle in the vein of the next dude (or maybe the rope in his neck since someone has invented the ''short drop method''). Pretty cool huh?
Texas "death machine" keeps turning out the numbers, doesn't it folks? They keep those juices flowing right into the veins of cold blooded killers---turning them into a cold corpse.
Q. How do we make sure that criminals after release do not impose danger to others? A. Don’t release them, execute them. Q. Well ... what sentence do we give violent criminals? A. Death by lethal injection Q. We don't want LWOP for all violent crime - do we? A. No, we don’t want LWOP for any violent crime. We want death by lethal injection and sooner rather than later. The death penalty needs to be extended to many more violent criminals than it is now.
TOMORROW, TOMORROW, THERE'S TWO FOR TOMORROW IT'S ONLY A DAY AWAY...... cases and status of Michael Goodwin of Ohio and Earl Heiselbetz, Jr. of Texas.. both to be executed tomorrow for their crimes. Nils
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Post by bernard on Jan 3, 2016 17:40:20 GMT -6
... and how distant dont these quotes feel from about 15 years ago from this board: … If the child can be rehabilitated and become productive in society, then he should be given the chance. If he cannot, what purpose on earth would there be to kehep him alive?
For me death row inmates are sub humans. they are the sewer of society. They are dirty laundry and they deserve to be treated as animals. I believe that a harsh treatment a death row imates receives while waiting for his liquidation, is one aspect of his entire punishment for his deed until he goes for his appointment with the death chamber.
McGuinn is dead------Pop the Cork and time for High Fives They finally snuffed the low life piece of crap.
THIS IS THE DAY, THIS IS THE DAY, IN TEXAS, JAMES MORELAND WILL DIE--ANOTHERONE FOR THE BOOKS, FOLKS---
NO MERCY, NO COMPASSION, NO FORGIVENESS to this type of animal. I hope this guys rots in hell and every millimeter of his soul burns for eternity.
I really can't wait anymore before that low life scum, Ricky McGinn gets straped to the gurney and receives the needle. For someone who sexually assaulted and murdered his 12-years-old step-daughter, I really think he has already lived for too long. It's just time that justice arrives for him and that he would finelly pay for his deed. I hope that after his death he would simply burn in hell forever.
I hope tomorrow will be on the earth one murder less and in hell one animal more. Hey ....listen i c..o..u..l..d..n't care less of this bull*** im waiting for the next execution and imenjoying it soo much. Do you wana call it revenge? Man,I'd put the neddle in the vein of the next dude (or maybe the rope in his neck since someone has invented the ''short drop method''). Pretty cool huh?
Texas "death machine" keeps turning out the numbers, doesn't it folks? They keep those juices flowing right into the veins of cold blooded killers---turning them into a cold corpse.
Q. How do we make sure that criminals after release do not impose danger to others? A. Don’t release them, execute them. Q. Well ... what sentence do we give violent criminals? A. Death by lethal injection Q. We don't want LWOP for all violent crime - do we? A. No, we don’t want LWOP for any violent crime. We want death by lethal injection and sooner rather than later. The death penalty needs to be extended to many more violent criminals than it is now.
TOMORROW, TOMORROW, THERE'S TWO FOR TOMORROW IT'S ONLY A DAY AWAY...... cases and status of Michael Goodwin of Ohio and Earl Heiselbetz, Jr. of Texas.. both to be executed tomorrow for their crimes. Nils I wouldn't put all of those comments in the same category. Some of them are outrageous proposals. (Death for all violent crimes? What? Death for punching an as$hole in a bar???) Others seem excited for all the wrong reasons. But some of the comments seem okay to me. The language is a bit colorful, but they're just healthy expressions of anger. And anger towards the crime of murder is appropriate. In fact anything short of bloody red fury seems inappropriate to me. But just because I WANT murderers to die doesn't give me the right to start killing folks that, to the best of my knowledge, are murderers. I might have the wrong guy. And if I take such risks against innocent life just to get what I WANT, then I end up behaving just like the murderer.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 3, 2016 18:13:45 GMT -6
... and how distant dont these quotes feel from about 15 years ago from this board: … If the child can be rehabilitated and become productive in society, then he should be given the chance. If he cannot, what purpose on earth would there be to kehep him alive?
For me death row inmates are sub humans. they are the sewer of society. They are dirty laundry and they deserve to be treated as animals. I believe that a harsh treatment a death row imates receives while waiting for his liquidation, is one aspect of his entire punishment for his deed until he goes for his appointment with the death chamber.
McGuinn is dead------Pop the Cork and time for High Fives They finally snuffed the low life piece of crap.
THIS IS THE DAY, THIS IS THE DAY, IN TEXAS, JAMES MORELAND WILL DIE--ANOTHERONE FOR THE BOOKS, FOLKS---
NO MERCY, NO COMPASSION, NO FORGIVENESS to this type of animal. I hope this guys rots in hell and every millimeter of his soul burns for eternity.
I really can't wait anymore before that low life scum, Ricky McGinn gets straped to the gurney and receives the needle. For someone who sexually assaulted and murdered his 12-years-old step-daughter, I really think he has already lived for too long. It's just time that justice arrives for him and that he would finelly pay for his deed. I hope that after his death he would simply burn in hell forever.
I hope tomorrow will be on the earth one murder less and in hell one animal more. Hey ....listen i c..o..u..l..d..n't care less of this bull*** im waiting for the next execution and imenjoying it soo much. Do you wana call it revenge? Man,I'd put the neddle in the vein of the next dude (or maybe the rope in his neck since someone has invented the ''short drop method''). Pretty cool huh?
Texas "death machine" keeps turning out the numbers, doesn't it folks? They keep those juices flowing right into the veins of cold blooded killers---turning them into a cold corpse.
Q. How do we make sure that criminals after release do not impose danger to others? A. Don’t release them, execute them. Q. Well ... what sentence do we give violent criminals? A. Death by lethal injection Q. We don't want LWOP for all violent crime - do we? A. No, we don’t want LWOP for any violent crime. We want death by lethal injection and sooner rather than later. The death penalty needs to be extended to many more violent criminals than it is now.
TOMORROW, TOMORROW, THERE'S TWO FOR TOMORROW IT'S ONLY A DAY AWAY...... cases and status of Michael Goodwin of Ohio and Earl Heiselbetz, Jr. of Texas.. both to be executed tomorrow for their crimes. Nils I wouldn't put all of those comments in the same category. Some of them are outrageous proposals. (Death for all violent crimes? What? Death for punching an as$hole in a bar???) Others seem excited for all the wrong reasons. But some of the comments seem okay to me. The language is a bit colorful, but they're just healthy expressions of anger. And anger towards the crime of murder is appropriate. In fact anything short of bloody red fury seems inappropriate to me. But just because I WANT murderers to die doesn't give me the right to start killing folks that, to the best of my knowledge, are murderers. I might have the wrong guy. And if I take such risks against innocent life just to get what I WANT, then I end up behaving just like the murderer. Once in a while I like your post, this is one of them, Bernard..
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Post by nils on Jan 4, 2016 10:54:37 GMT -6
The actual answer is: people who are well-protected and want to put criminals, including murderers, back on the street as soon as possible. Hello Donnie. Nobody wants to put murderers back on the streets as soon as possible, that would be absurd. You cannot be serious. So why is it then that DP is going out of fashion? Nils
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 4, 2016 11:03:35 GMT -6
The actual answer is: people who are well-protected and want to put criminals, including murderers, back on the street as soon as possible. Hello Donnie. Nobody wants to put murderers back on the streets as soon as possible, that would be absurd. You cannot be serious. So why is it then that DP is going out of fashion? Nils Wrong Nils, at least speaking from the US. Murderers are released back onto the streets. As well as rapist & peds. Serious.
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Post by nils on Jan 4, 2016 11:05:17 GMT -6
... and how distant dont these quotes feel from about 15 years ago from this board: … If the child can be rehabilitated and become productive in society, then he should be given the chance. If he cannot, what purpose on earth would there be to kehep him alive?
For me death row inmates are sub humans. they are the sewer of society. They are dirty laundry and they deserve to be treated as animals. I believe that a harsh treatment a death row imates receives while waiting for his liquidation, is one aspect of his entire punishment for his deed until he goes for his appointment with the death chamber.
McGuinn is dead------Pop the Cork and time for High Fives They finally snuffed the low life piece of crap.
THIS IS THE DAY, THIS IS THE DAY, IN TEXAS, JAMES MORELAND WILL DIE--ANOTHERONE FOR THE BOOKS, FOLKS---
NO MERCY, NO COMPASSION, NO FORGIVENESS to this type of animal. I hope this guys rots in hell and every millimeter of his soul burns for eternity.
I really can't wait anymore before that low life scum, Ricky McGinn gets straped to the gurney and receives the needle. For someone who sexually assaulted and murdered his 12-years-old step-daughter, I really think he has already lived for too long. It's just time that justice arrives for him and that he would finelly pay for his deed. I hope that after his death he would simply burn in hell forever.
I hope tomorrow will be on the earth one murder less and in hell one animal more. Hey ....listen i c..o..u..l..d..n't care less of this bull*** im waiting for the next execution and imenjoying it soo much. Do you wana call it revenge? Man,I'd put the neddle in the vein of the next dude (or maybe the rope in his neck since someone has invented the ''short drop method''). Pretty cool huh?
Texas "death machine" keeps turning out the numbers, doesn't it folks? They keep those juices flowing right into the veins of cold blooded killers---turning them into a cold corpse.
Q. How do we make sure that criminals after release do not impose danger to others? A. Don’t release them, execute them. Q. Well ... what sentence do we give violent criminals? A. Death by lethal injection Q. We don't want LWOP for all violent crime - do we? A. No, we don’t want LWOP for any violent crime. We want death by lethal injection and sooner rather than later. The death penalty needs to be extended to many more violent criminals than it is now.
TOMORROW, TOMORROW, THERE'S TWO FOR TOMORROW IT'S ONLY A DAY AWAY...... cases and status of Michael Goodwin of Ohio and Earl Heiselbetz, Jr. of Texas.. both to be executed tomorrow for their crimes. Nils I wouldn't put all of those comments in the same category. Some of them are outrageous proposals. (Death for all violent crimes? What? Death for punching an as$hole in a bar???) Others seem excited for all the wrong reasons. But some of the comments seem okay to me. The language is a bit colorful, but they're just healthy expressions of anger. And anger towards the crime of murder is appropriate. In fact anything short of bloody red fury seems inappropriate to me. But just because I WANT murderers to die doesn't give me the right to start killing folks that, to the best of my knowledge, are murderers. I might have the wrong guy. And if I take such risks against innocent life just to get what I WANT, then I end up behaving just like the murderer. Well, I find the comments a bit hard do digest. Anyway, they are few and far betwen today. 15 years ago I could pick a couple each and every day. So something is indeed happening. What do you think it is? Are we seing the beginning of the end of DP? What do you think? Nils
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Post by nils on Jan 4, 2016 11:07:49 GMT -6
Hello Donnie. Nobody wants to put murderers back on the streets as soon as possible, that would be absurd. You cannot be serious. So why is it then that DP is going out of fashion? Nils Wrong Nils, at least speaking from the US. Murderers are released back onto the streets. As well as rapist & peds. Serious. Murderers, rapists and peds are released after served term - are they not? And the averag time is, as fas as i know 10-15 years for murder. Correct? Nils:)
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 4, 2016 11:12:29 GMT -6
But some of the comments seem okay to me. The language is a bit colorful, but they're just healthy expressions of anger. And anger towards the crime of murder is appropriate. In fact anything short of bloody red fury seems inappropriate to me. Once in a while I like your post, this is one of them, Bernard.. The anger itself is appropriate even if colorful. I hope people never become so passive. If so, then mankind is surely doomed as a whole.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 4, 2016 11:15:22 GMT -6
Wrong Nils, at least speaking from the US. Murderers are released back onto the streets. As well as rapist & peds. Serious. Murderers, rapists and peds are released after served term - are they not? And the averag time is, as fas as i know 10-15 years for murder. Correct? Nils:) No, many only serve in actual time 5 to 8 yrs which is insane. In some cases it may say 10-15.
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nate
Old Hand
momento mori.
Posts: 544
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Post by nate on Jan 4, 2016 15:09:38 GMT -6
Fanatics!
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 4, 2016 16:42:42 GMT -6
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Post by bernard on Jan 5, 2016 16:12:29 GMT -6
I wouldn't put all of those comments in the same category. Some of them are outrageous proposals. (Death for all violent crimes? What? Death for punching an as$hole in a bar???) Others seem excited for all the wrong reasons. But some of the comments seem okay to me. The language is a bit colorful, but they're just healthy expressions of anger. And anger towards the crime of murder is appropriate. In fact anything short of bloody red fury seems inappropriate to me. But just because I WANT murderers to die doesn't give me the right to start killing folks that, to the best of my knowledge, are murderers. I might have the wrong guy. And if I take such risks against innocent life just to get what I WANT, then I end up behaving just like the murderer. Well, I find the comments a bit hard do digest. Anyway, they are few and far betwen today. 15 years ago I could pick a couple each and every day. So something is indeed happening. What do you think it is? Are we seing the beginning of the end of DP? I think we are well past the beginning of the end. We're well into act 2. I might add that, having been here so long, you have certainly earned your right to gloat.
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Post by nils on Jan 6, 2016 4:38:44 GMT -6
Does this mean you seriously belive we are seeing the end of DP in America?
Nils
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 6, 2016 11:48:06 GMT -6
DP's been killed. Oops breaking news..N Korea
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Post by bernard on Jan 10, 2016 1:50:39 GMT -6
Does this mean you seriously belive we are seeing the end of DP in America? Nils Of course.
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nate
Old Hand
momento mori.
Posts: 544
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Post by nate on Jan 11, 2016 17:04:41 GMT -6
Its simply not the thing to do...too many mistakes and you can't un-execute someone.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 11, 2016 17:44:52 GMT -6
Yeah, we need to make movies about them instead, EL Chapo.
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nate
Old Hand
momento mori.
Posts: 544
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Post by nate on Jan 12, 2016 17:43:22 GMT -6
You lost me.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 12, 2016 21:22:16 GMT -6
Its simply not the thing to do...too many mistakes and you can't un-execute someone. What about the ones found guilty without a doubt? Do away with the DP completely? It is so creepy to me many movies come out on the obviously guilty crimes & the criminals name like they are super stars, but not ok for them to face a DP. I am sure a movie will come out & book on EL Chapo too, he qualifies & his crimes for stardom. Exactly what these murderers love. Why does the public find that NOT disgusting? While making big $$$ off of it.
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Post by bernard on Jan 13, 2016 4:24:06 GMT -6
Its simply not the thing to do...too many mistakes and you can't un-execute someone. What about the ones found guilty without a doubt? They're ALL supposed to be found guilty without a doubt. What your comment shows is that, deep down, we know that that standard is rarely attained.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 13, 2016 10:29:53 GMT -6
What about the ones found guilty without a doubt? They're ALL supposed to be found guilty without a doubt. What your comment shows is that, deep down, we know that that standard is rarely attained. And what about the Gacys etc etc....I believe in the DP. No defense team can twist that.
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Post by nils on Jan 13, 2016 11:02:35 GMT -6
Does this mean you seriously belive we are seeing the end of DP in America? Nils Of course. I hope you are right Bernard. The apetite for the DP is on a long term low, but what makes you think opinion will not change? Only 10 or 15 years ago sentiments were quite different. Pls explain Nils
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nate
Old Hand
momento mori.
Posts: 544
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Post by nate on Jan 13, 2016 11:47:52 GMT -6
What about the ones found guilty without a doubt? They're ALL supposed to be found guilty without a doubt. What your comment shows is that, deep down, we know that that standard is rarely attained. Yes,thats what I mean LWOP is the right thing.
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Post by bernard on Jan 16, 2016 14:19:31 GMT -6
I hope you are right Bernard. The apetite for the DP is on a long term low, but what makes you think opinion will not change? Only 10 or 15 years ago sentiments were quite different. Pls explain Nils The eighth amendment has been gradually killing the DP for years. It guarantees that once a punishment becomes unusual, you can't go back to using it. It means that changes in sentiment can change the law one way, but never the other.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 17, 2016 11:02:35 GMT -6
The eighth amendment has been gradually killing the DP for years. It guarantees that once a punishment becomes unusual, you can't go back to using it. It means that changes in sentiment can change the law one way, but never the other. Outlawing punishments that are (excessive when related to the crime in question,) as compared to competence of the aggressor. To add: Outlawed public dissecting, burning perpetrator alive, quartering or disemboweling regardless of crime. Wilkerson v Utah, rules death by firing squad is not considered cruel & unusual.
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Post by bernard on Jan 17, 2016 21:17:47 GMT -6
Outlawing punishments that are (excessive when related to the crime in question,) as compared to competence of the aggressor. To add: Outlawed public dissecting, burning perpetrator alive, quartering or disemboweling regardless of crime. That's the "cruel" part. But there is also the "unusual" part. Disemboweling is not obviously excessive for the crime of disemboweling. It seems perfectly proportionate. However, it is impossible to enact these days, even if the states were to want it, since it has become unusual. (And there is no way to make it usual except by first enacting it.) I haven't time to look it up now, but I might guess that their reasoning was that it wasn't unusual for the crime of desertion.
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