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Post by nils on Jan 8, 2015 6:55:12 GMT -6
Hi In order to design a judicial system able to deal with violence, crime and anti-social behavior in more productive ways, we need far deeper understandings of our psyche, our biochemistry and our biology than we currently have. Why we act the way we do is a difficult problem that has kept scientists and philosophers busy so long as they have been around. What we perceive as “reality” is indeed a function of what goes on in your brain and nervous system at any given moment. What we (most of us) perceive as pleasurable, painful or frightening is a result of millions of years of evolution, and those feelings have served us well as a guide in the evolution of us and our ancestors. However, Man has now created a world for which he is (biologically and mentally) somewhat ill equipped. That is simply because our societies have evolved much quicker than biological evolution could do. And that is why much of our psyche and biology are somewhat out of sync with the world as we have made it. Our appetite for calories is one obvious example where we would be much better served with an appetite less focused on energy intake and more focused on a balanced diet. Our often misdirected feelings of stress and anger are other examples of evolutionary history playing important and problematic games with us. That most of us are quite capable of horrible acts has been well demonstrated by Philip Zimbardo in his classic “Stanford prison experiment” and in his later research and book “The Lucifer Effect” This is what Zimbardo has to say; “The Lucifer Effect raises a fundamental question about the nature of human nature: How is it possible for ordinary, average, even good people to become perpetrators of evil? In trying to understand unusual, or aberrant behavior, we often err in focusing exclusively on the inner determinants of genes, personality, and character, as we also tend to ignore what may be the critical catalyst for behavior change in the external Situation or in the System that creates and maintains such situations. I challenge readers to reflect on how well they really know themselves, and how much confidence they have in what they would or would not ever do when put into new behavioral settings.“ ““Zimbardo's interest in understanding the dynamics of human aggression and violence stems from early personal experiences growing up amid the violence of the South Bronx ghetto where Zimbardo was born and raised. He has specifically focused, however, on how 'good' people are seduced or induced to engage in violent, or "evil" deeds by situational forces by which they find themselves surrounded, and psychological justifications and interpretations. “” Read more at; www.lucifereffect.com/about_synopsis.htmAnd lets have a good talk about this without insults. Best wishes from Bangkok Nils.
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 8, 2015 11:44:19 GMT -6
In order to design a judicial system able to deal with violence, crime and anti-social behavior in more productive ways, we need far deeper understandings of our psyche, our biochemistry and our biology than we currently have. No, we don't. What's more productive than putting them in prison?
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Post by bernard on Jan 8, 2015 12:32:13 GMT -6
In order to design a judicial system able to deal with violence, crime and anti-social behavior in more productive ways, we need far deeper understandings of our psyche, our biochemistry and our biology than we currently have. No, we don't. What's more productive than putting them in prison? Sounds like you're making an argument against the dp there Joe.
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Post by bernard on Jan 8, 2015 13:16:11 GMT -6
Nils, am I right in thinking that if there were a treatment program that rehabilitated murderers (let's say it took about 8 months to a year to complete) you'd be happy with releasing those murderers after that short period?
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 8, 2015 13:22:44 GMT -6
Sounds like you're making an argument against the dp there Joe. I don't want all criminals killed. Just the murderers.
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Post by nils on Jan 8, 2015 20:07:08 GMT -6
Nils, am I right in thinking that if there were a treatment program that rehabilitated murderers (let's say it took about 8 months to a year to complete) you'd be happy with releasing those murderers after that short period? Hi No Bernard. To reform the criminal justice system must be a gradual process . But we need to rethink the concept of punishment altogether. We want our prisons to be institutions of rehabilitation. The vast majority of serious offenders will walk our streets after served term and most murderers will be free again within about 15 years behind bars. 75 percent of inmates in the US are revistis and about half of the reoffenders are there for viloence related crimes - it is obvious todyas prison is not effective as a disincentive to offending - but what is? "Research over the past 10 years has consistently demonstrated that the most effective way to reduce offending, and particularly reoffending is through education, particularly literacy training and GED (Steurer, Smith, and Tracy, 2001). An Arizona Department of Adult Probation Study showed that probationers who received literacy training had 35% rearrest rate compared with a control group that had 46% rearrest, and those who received a GED had a rearrest rate of 24% (Siegal, 1997). " "So what are the policy implications of the prison-as-punishment does not deter crime conclusion? First, we need to consider ceasing to use prison as punishment. Incapacitating the most seriously harmful offenders is a different argument. Second, we should draw on the research of what we know works to prevent recidivism, especially literacy programs, skills training and GED, as well as educating prisoners to associates degree level in higher education and restore financial support for these successful practices. Third, we should train corrections officers to be corrections officers rather than guards, and if that means training them to be effective and qualified teachers, then this will be money well spent. Fourth, we should invest the money spent on incarceration on ensuring that the illiteracy rate among the nations population is reduced dramatically. Doing so will ensure that our general population is equipped to make the very kind of rational choice decisions that will enable them to make better choices in the first place. Finally, we should abandon the discourse of punishment as our response to unwanted behavior. It doesnt work for parrots and it doesnt work for people." See: www.is.wayne.edu/StuartHenry/Effectiveness_of_Punishment.htmBest wishes Nils
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Post by bernard on Jan 8, 2015 20:20:12 GMT -6
Nils, am I right in thinking that if there were a treatment program that rehabilitated murderers (let's say it took about 8 months to a year to complete) you'd be happy with releasing those murderers after that short period? Hi No Bernard. To reform the criminal justice system must be a gradual process . But we need to rethink the concept of punishment altogether. We want our prisons to be institutions of rehabilitation. The vast majority of serious offenders will walk our streets after served term and most murderers will be free again within about 15 years behind bars. But if in the future rehabilitation takes only 6 months to a year, would you insist that murderers stay in jail anyway for another 14 years? If so, why?
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Post by nils on Jan 8, 2015 21:10:20 GMT -6
Hi No Bernard. To reform the criminal justice system must be a gradual process . But we need to rethink the concept of punishment altogether. We want our prisons to be institutions of rehabilitation. The vast majority of serious offenders will walk our streets after served term and most murderers will be free again within about 15 years behind bars. But if in the future rehabilitation takes only 6 months to a year, would you insist that murderers stay in jail anyway for another 14 years? If so, why? Reform of this kind can only be gradual, and at a pace that reflects a Change in values in society as a whole. But for the sake of argument lets say it is proven and accepted that murderers can be "cured" and rehabilitated in a short time, there should be little reason to keep them in prison. Such a situation is unlikely in the foresseable future and could only happen after a gradual decline in recidivism and a gradual shortening of time behind bars. If that proves to be successful, i can foresee a radical shortening of sentencing. Best. Nils.
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Post by bernard on Jan 8, 2015 23:02:11 GMT -6
But if in the future rehabilitation takes only 6 months to a year, would you insist that murderers stay in jail anyway for another 14 years? If so, why? Reform of this kind can only be gradual, and at a pace that reflects a Change in values in society as a whole. But for the sake of argument lets say it is proven and accepted that murderers can be "cured" and rehabilitated in a short time, there should be little reason to keep them in prison. Such a situation is unlikely in the foresseable future and could only happen after a gradual decline in recidivism and a gradual shortening of time behind bars. If that proves to be successful, i can foresee a radical shortening of sentencing. Best. Nils. Then you will struggle to communicate with most people here. They want criminals behind bars/dead less because of what they MIGHT do in future, and more for what they HAVE done in the past. Most pros would want the murderer dead even if he could be rehabilitated, because that would be payback for what he has done.
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Post by nils on Jan 9, 2015 2:40:15 GMT -6
I know. Ive been here 15 years. Revenge and lust for blood are important drivers for some but not for all. And after all, we all want a less violent society. If they actually read what I post, they must be admit that finding out the roots and causes of viloence, and possible treatments for violent and dangerous people is a good thing. And if treatmemt can be proven to be effective, Isnt it reasonable to suggest that it ought to have effect on how we look at sentencing? Nils
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Post by bernard on Jan 9, 2015 10:01:44 GMT -6
I know. Ive been here 15 years. Revenge and lust for blood are important drivers for some but not for all. And after all, we all want a less violent society. If they actually read what I post, they must be admit that finding out the roots and causes of viloence, and possible treatments for violent and dangerous people is a good thing. And if treatmemt can be proven to be effective, Isnt it reasonable to suggest that it ought to have effect on how we look at sentencing? Nils Sure, but just because a person is rehabilitated, why does that mean we have to let them go? Why not rehabilitate them for the purposes of making them into better prisoners, before juicing them for the murders they committed?
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 9, 2015 10:08:05 GMT -6
we all want a less violent society. Speak for yourself, Nils. It isn't violence that's the problem, but crime. they must be admit that finding out the roots and causes of viloence, and possible treatments for violent and dangerous people is a good thing. This assumes facts not in evidence. Violent crime is a moral problem, not a social problem. And if treatmemt can be proven to be effective, Isnt it reasonable to suggest that it ought to have effect on how we look at sentencing? You can't "treat" someone who is born evil.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 9, 2015 11:30:51 GMT -6
For preventive reasons that sounds fine.
Psychopaths can fool even the best shrinks, that is what psycho's are experts at. If you want to release murderer's back after they are so called rehabilitated ( after the fact) that is on you & your countries. It is also your responsibllity if a released murderer goes on to murder again. Yet, that fact seems your saying you can live with & sleep at night.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 12:14:37 GMT -6
OMG... Nils, you are brilliant.
Yes, let's cure them of their violence and evil ways and then set them free after a year.
It is the perfect opportunity for many people that want revenge and blood lust. They could sit and wait for them to get out and kill them. Most people, who kill the murderer, in those circumstances could be cured of their violent ways in a matter of weeks and released. These individuals were never violent before and probably won't be ever again. It would be real easy to prove what brought said individuals to violence and now they are cured because the cause of their one time violent behavior is now eliminated.
Let's do it. Let's set them free and make sentences light. 6 months to a year for murder in a rehabilitation facility would be like a nice little vacation. You really are pro DP, nils!!!! You just want the MVSs to do it in order to get the help they need. This was as amusing as the time that someone suggested we should give the convicted on DP cyanide pills so they could choose their own time of death. So, brilliant... Let's give them cyanide to use against anyone else they want to. The genius of some antis is just amazing.
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Post by oslooskar on Jan 9, 2015 12:28:48 GMT -6
What's more productive than putting them in prison? Prisons are too costly! Fence off a large area of farmland and put every habitual criminal inside of it and then inform them that they are officially locked out of the United States. Whether they sink or swim will be up to them.
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 9, 2015 12:53:27 GMT -6
isons are too costly! Fence off a large area of farmland and put every habitual criminal inside of it and then inform them that they are officially locked out of the United States. Whether they sink or swim will be up to them. That's what we do in California already.
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Post by oslooskar on Jan 9, 2015 15:29:13 GMT -6
That's what we do in California already. Apparently you’ve misunderstood me. I’m suggesting that those within the fenced off area are on their own and they eat what they grow or they don’t eat at all.
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Post by nils on Jan 9, 2015 21:14:30 GMT -6
OMG... Nils, you are brilliant. Yes, let's cure them of their violence and evil ways and then set them free after a year. It is the perfect opportunity for many people that want revenge and blood lust. They could sit and wait for them to get out and kill them. Most people, who kill the murderer, in those circumstances could be cured of their violent ways in a matter of weeks and released. These individuals were never violent before and probably won't be ever again. It would be real easy to prove what brought said individuals to violence and now they are cured because the cause of their one time violent behavior is now eliminated. Let's do it. Let's set them free and make sentences light. 6 months to a year for murder in a rehabilitation facility would be like a nice little vacation. You really are pro DP, nils!!!! You just want the MVSs to do it in order to get the help they need. This was as amusing as the time that someone suggested we should give the convicted on DP cyanide pills so they could choose their own time of death. So, brilliant... Let's give them cyanide to use against anyone else they want to. The genius of some antis is just amazing. Hello Greggsmom. Let me first say that I want our cities and towns as safe and free from crime/viloence as you do. And I would never suggest to let murderers out like you seem to think. If you read carefully what I write, you will see that it is a thought experiment. However. It is a fact, that we do let (most) murderes free to walk the streets after 10-15 years behind bars. The effect is that many thousands ex-murderers are today walking our streets and will continue to do so. Along with them many hundreds of thousands of ex-prisoners with dangerous personal profiles. So, however much we dislike ex murderers, the best we can do is to try to make them less dangerous. Is it not? So my post raises an important question. And evidence suggests that rates of recidivism are reduced if inmates are offered meaningful education. And if recidivism is reduced society as a whole will gain. Is it not a good idea then, to work along that path? Best Nils.
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Post by nils on Jan 9, 2015 21:50:49 GMT -6
Hello. As you must be aware, murderers are set free each and every week, all year around in America. It is happening now. And it is not going to stop. Better then to make murderers less dangerous, less likley to reoffend - is to not? Pls reply. Tks. Best Nils
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Post by nils on Jan 9, 2015 21:58:31 GMT -6
Hello. BUT. If education can be proven to reduce recidivism - dont you think education should be used? I have seen no evidence that criminals are BORN evil. Have you? Best. Nils.
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Post by oslooskar on Jan 9, 2015 22:08:25 GMT -6
Better then to make murderers less dangerous, less likley to reoffend A bullet in the back of a murderer's head will do the trick!
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 10, 2015 9:02:42 GMT -6
If education can be proven to reduce recidivism - dont you think education should be used? No, I don't. I don't care if they reoffend. That's on them. I have seen no evidence that criminals are BORN evil. Have you? No one has proven otherwise. I am therefore compelled to consider the possibility. Why aren't you?
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 10, 2015 9:07:27 GMT -6
I’m suggesting that those within the fenced off area are on their own and they eat what they grow or they don’t eat at all. I suppose, but the cost of incarceration isn't really important to me. At the very least, I want all murders permanently immured, and we can't stomach killing them outright. That sort of punishment is expensive, but the cost of feeding inmates is negligible.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 10, 2015 10:56:44 GMT -6
Hello. As you must be aware, murderers are set free each and every week, all year around in America. It is happening now. And it is not going to stop. Better then to make murderers less dangerous, less likley to reoffend - is to not? Pls reply. Tks. Best Nils Oh yes, I am very aware murderers are set free each & every week, even in America. There is also a list of murderers released & murder again. Rough estimate 15% of the released do so again. I am also aware of those who are incarcerated commit murders inside. Should I place the " long list" which still does not cover all who have been released or even inside murdered again for you too?
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 10, 2015 11:39:50 GMT -6
Hello. As you must be aware, murderers are set free each and every week, all year around in America. It is happening now. And it is not going to stop. Best Nils Yes it can stop with LWOP or DP. When an inmate is incarcerated for murder & commits murder again ( factually) happens then they should be elevated to DR. Not just more sentencing time added.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 10, 2015 11:41:37 GMT -6
Hello. As you must be aware, murderers are set free each and every week, all year around in America. It is happening now. And it is not going to stop. Best Nils Yes it can stop with LWOP or DP. When an inmate is incarcerated for murder & commits murder again ( factually) happens then they should be elevated to DR. Not just more sentencing time added. Inmates also have access to higher education already while inside. It is their personal responsiblity to use or discard that advantage. To add: Nil's you make it seem you believe most of the problems stem from those who are not educated. The vast majority of the uneducated just work hard & never harm anyone. Federal prisons are full of smart guys. Those with many degree's commit murder. A pyschopath is a psychopath.
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Post by oslooskar on Jan 10, 2015 13:48:10 GMT -6
Inmates also have access to higher education already while inside. It is their personal responsiblity to use or discard that advantage. Everybody has access to higher education in this country no matter where they are. That's what public libraries are for.
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Post by whitediamonds on Jan 10, 2015 14:00:08 GMT -6
Inmates also have access to higher education already while inside. It is their personal responsiblity to use or discard that advantage. Everybody has access to higher education in this country no matter where they are. That's what public libraries are for. Yup ...
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Post by bernard on Jan 10, 2015 15:48:49 GMT -6
If education can be proven to reduce recidivism - dont you think education should be used? No, I don't. I don't care if they reoffend. That's on them. You don't care if they murder again? Then you don't care about murder.
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 12, 2015 7:59:31 GMT -6
You don't care if they murder again? Then you don't care about murder. Rehabilitation of a murderer is impossible. There is no atonement for murder. The purpose of punishment isn't rehabilitation. Crime is not a social problem. It's a moral problem. Recidivism among murderers is not a problem if they are never released in the first place.
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