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Post by nils on Nov 3, 2014 3:32:19 GMT -6
A Plea for Change - American JusticeAmerican prosecutors have too much power. Hand some of it to judgesANTHONY YARBOUGH was convicted of a triple stabbing in 1992, although not a speck of blood was found on his clothes and the DNA under one victim’s fingernails did not match his. He was found guilty because his petrified 15-year-old co-defendant, Sharrif Wilson, pleaded guilty and testified against him in exchange for a lighter sentence. (He later recanted.) The same DNA was found on the corpse of another stabbed woman while Mr Yarbough and Mr Wilson were in prison. Yet they were not exonerated and freed until this year. More than 95% of convictions in America are reached through plea bargains, in which the defendant agrees to plead guilty in return for leniency. Many convictions also depend on the testimony of a “co-operating witness”, who snitches for the same reason. Defenders of the system argue that it is efficient. By avoiding long, costly trials, America can lock up lots of villains. Without plea deals, the courts would be swamped. Alas, the process is open to abuse (see article). Prosecutors hold all the cards. If a defence lawyer offers a witness $100 for a false alibi, he is guilty of bribery. But if a prosecutor offers a co-operating witness something far more valuable—the chance to avoid several years in a cell—that is just fine. With so much at stake, snitches sometimes tell prosecutors what they want to hear. One study found that nearly half of the cases in which people have been wrongfully sentenced to death hinged on false testimony by informants, typically criminals who were rewarded with lighter punishments. Over the past generation, two things have given prosecutors more muscle. One is the proliferation of incomprehensible laws, which mean that in complex white-collar cases a prosecutor can usually find some technical rule his target has broken. The other is the spread of mandatory minimum sentences, which transfer power from judges to prosecutors. In Florida, the minimum sentence for possessing 4-14g of heroin is three years; for 28g or more, it is 25 years. Thus, it makes a huge difference whether a dealer’s girlfriend is charged just for the drugs in her handbag or also for the stash in her boyfriend’s safe. Likewise, a white-collar defendant may face one count of fraud or a separate charge for every e-mail sent in pursuit of it. In both cases, it is up to the prosecutor to decide. Eric Holder, the attorney-general, who announced his retirement on September 25th (seearticle), has urged federal prosecutors not to seek such harsh sentences in some drug cases. But only some; and state prosecutors are still free to threaten defendants with terrifying punishments if they fail to plead guilty or implicate others. A federal judge recently guessed that thousands of innocent Americans could be stuck behind bars because of coercive plea bargaining. Let judges judgeMany other countries ban plea bargains or limit them stringently. Ideally America should ban them too. If it cannot face the thought, it should at least reform them. Mandatory minimum sentences should be scrapped, and judges should judge each case on its merits. Prosecutorial control over plea bargaining should be loosened, for instance by bringing in a magistrate judge who could take offers from both sides and act as adjudicator. This would make the negotiation more of a give-and-take, and could be used to shine light on a process that is currently as murky as it is inequitable. As America’s military dominance declines, its influence will depend more and more on “soft” power: winning friends because of the attractiveness of its ideals. Its justice system makes this difficult. Mr Holder’s successor should try much harder to rein in America’s over-mighty prosecutors. www. economost.com From the print edition: Leaders www.economist.com/news/leaders/21621784-american-prosecutors-have-too-much-power-hand-some-it-judges-plea-change Best wishes from Europe Nils
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 3, 2014 11:16:21 GMT -6
I agree with this, change is needed as article states.
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Post by ltdc on Nov 3, 2014 12:43:36 GMT -6
Nils, as you know and the article implies, you cannot execute an innocent man without first convicting an innocent man. so you've posted this on the wrong site. you should post it on some kind of "prosecution" site.
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Post by Stormyweather on Nov 5, 2014 11:59:57 GMT -6
I'm always curious why Nils is worried about an innocent being executed in American when it's probably happening all the time in nations like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, China, North Korea etc. Why don't you go plead with them and then come back and help the "bad" old USA work on their injustices.
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Post by ltdc on Nov 5, 2014 13:51:10 GMT -6
I'm always curious why Nils is worried about an innocent being executed in American nils is not the least bit worried about American executions, innocent or otherwise, and never has been. he's just the kid who feels the need to poke at the dog on a ten foot leash from eleven feet away.
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Post by nils on Nov 7, 2014 0:53:01 GMT -6
I'm always curious why Nils is worried about an innocent being executed in American when it's probably happening all the time in nations like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, China, North Korea etc. Why don't you go plead with them and then come back and help the "bad" old USA work on their injustices. Hello America is a democratic nation with values similar or identical to European values. America is also the remaining global power . And even if Americas standing in The world is in question (due to rapid growth of China and others and failures such as Iraq/Afghanistan etc) Americas behavioir and continued strength is of vital importance for all of us. Of equal importance is that America stands by her democratic values. From nations such as Sudan, Pakistan, China and Russia we cannot expect systems of justice as we define it in the democratic world. I have hands on experience from Russia since we have an office there since 15 years. For almost ten years we have seen coming what is now obvious for the entire world. These nations and many others execute justice as they wish. So when democratic bastions such as America fails it hurts. Best wishes from Sweden Nils
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Post by ltdc on Nov 7, 2014 9:40:23 GMT -6
I'm always curious why Nils is worried about an innocent being executed in American when it's probably happening all the time in nations like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, China, North Korea etc. Why don't you go plead with them and then come back and help the "bad" old USA work on their injustices. Hello These nations and many others execute justice as they wish. does YOUR country/system/citizens NOT execute justice as it wishes? a bit arrogant and hypocritical then to tell us or others how to do it don't you think? in fact, how does YOUR country define justice and by what authority do they define it? maybe our idea of justice is better and YOU guys are fubar.
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 7, 2014 10:48:17 GMT -6
Though I do agree change is needed with some of our laws & sentencing, I do NOT agree this has any merit towards NOT having a DP at all. You handle your justice in Sweden, as far as the U.S goes on the DP" go back to your cloistered world of crumpets & tea @ 4 & knitting on the veranda . Sorry we shock your delicate sensibilities. Best Wishes WD. U.S.A
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Post by nils on Nov 8, 2014 0:59:14 GMT -6
does YOUR country/system/citizens NOT execute justice as it wishes? a bit arrogant and hypocritical then to tell us or others how to do it don't you think? in fact, how does YOUR country define justice and by what authority do they define it? maybe our idea of justice is better and YOU guys are fubar.
Though I do agree change is needed with some of our laws & sentencing, I do NOT agree this has any merit towards NOT having a DP at all. You handle your justice in Sweden, as far as the U.S goes on the DP" go back to your cloistered world of crumpets & tea @ 4 & knitting on the veranda . Sorry we shock your delicate sensibilities. Best Wishes WD. U.S. ]Hello ltdc and Whitediamond Have I ever said Swedish justice is near to Perfect? No i have not. And it is not. But thats not the subject of this board, let me remind you. The subject of this board is The DP. And plea bargains do present difficult problems. It is argued that capital punishment is a bargaining chip prosecutors need in order to secure life without parole pleas. And it is obvious that this tactic reveals profound ethical dilemmas as the threat of a death sentence can be used coercively, only increasing the risk of wrongful convictions. This is what I highlighted from the article in The Economist: Prosecutors hold all the cards. If a defence lawyer offers a witness $100 for a false alibi, he is guilty of bribery. But if a prosecutor offers a co-operating witness something far more valuable—the chance to avoid several years in a cell—that is just fine. With so much at stake, snitches sometimes tell prosecutors what they want to hear. One study found that nearly half of the cases in which people have been wrongfully sentenced to death hinged on false testimony by informants, typically criminals who were rewarded with lighter punishments. Isnt this an important problem? Best Euro wishes. Nils.
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 8, 2014 7:38:25 GMT -6
does YOUR country/system/citizens NOT execute justice as it wishes? a bit arrogant and hypocritical then to tell us or others how to do it don't you think? in fact, how does YOUR country define justice and by what authority do they define it? maybe our idea of justice is better and YOU guys are fubar.
Though I do agree change is needed with some of our laws & sentencing, I do NOT agree this has any merit towards NOT having a DP at all. You handle your justice in Sweden, as far as the U.S goes on the DP" go back to your cloistered world of crumpets & tea @ 4 & knitting on the veranda . Sorry we shock your delicate sensibilities. Best Wishes WD. U.S. ]Hello ltdc and Whitediamond Have I ever said Swedish justice is near to Perfect? No i have not. And it is not. But thats not the subject of this board, let me remind you. The subject of this board is The DP. And plea bargains do present difficult problems. It is argued that capital punishment is a bargaining chip prosecutors need in order to secure life without parole pleas. And it is obvious that this tactic reveals profound ethical dilemmas as the threat of a death sentence can be used coercively, only increasing the risk of wrongful convictions. This is what I highlighted from the article in The Economist: Prosecutors hold all the cards. If a defence lawyer offers a witness $100 for a false alibi, he is guilty of bribery. But if a prosecutor offers a co-operating witness something far more valuable—the chance to avoid several years in a cell—that is just fine. With so much at stake, snitches sometimes tell prosecutors what they want to hear. One study found that nearly half of the cases in which people have been wrongfully sentenced to death hinged on false testimony by informants, typically criminals who were rewarded with lighter punishments. Isnt this an important problem? Best Euro wishes. Nils. I agree with what is highlighted is not good or working for the good. Still the DP should always remain on the table & used when qualifies..
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Post by josephdphillips on Nov 8, 2014 8:58:12 GMT -6
Hello America is a democratic nation with values similar or identical to European values. That's not the way we see it. Your values are different than ours. America is also the remaining global power. Not by choice. Americans are growing tired of carrying water for the rest of you. You euros need to step up. And even if Americas standing in The world is in question (due to rapid growth of China and others and failures such as Iraq/Afghanistan etc) Americas behavioir and continued strength is of vital importance for all of us. Right, so you can enjoy all the economic benefits of your "western" lifestyle with little of the responsibility. Of equal importance is that America stands by her democratic values. From nations such as Sudan, Pakistan, China and Russia we cannot expect systems of justice as we define it in the democratic world. I have hands on experience from Russia since we have an office there since 15 years. For almost ten years we have seen coming what is now obvious for the entire world. These nations and many others execute justice as they wish. So when democratic bastions such as America fails it hurts. Best wishes from Sweden Nils :) From where I sit the Chinese are much to be admired. I'd rather emulate their system of justice than yours.
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 8, 2014 10:14:06 GMT -6
does YOUR country/system/citizens NOT execute justice as it wishes? a bit arrogant and hypocritical then to tell us or others how to do it don't you think? in fact, how does YOUR country define justice and by what authority do they define it? maybe our idea of justice is better and YOU guys are fubar.
Though I do agree change is needed with some of our laws & sentencing, I do NOT agree this has any merit towards NOT having a DP at all. You handle your justice in Sweden, as far as the U.S goes on the DP" go back to your cloistered world of crumpets & tea @ 4 & knitting on the veranda . Sorry we shock your delicate sensibilities. Best Wishes WD. U.S. ]Hello ltdc and Whitediamond Best Euro wishes. Nils. By the way, I noticed you accidently left out in quoting me" " Best Wishes WD. U.S. leaving out the A... Not U.S , but U.S.A " America" !!!
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lordextinct
Freshman
Pro death penalty - full steam ahead!
Posts: 38
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Post by lordextinct on Nov 9, 2014 14:31:44 GMT -6
does YOUR country/system/citizens NOT execute justice as it wishes? a bit arrogant and hypocritical then to tell us or others how to do it don't you think? in fact, how does YOUR country define justice and by what authority do they define it? maybe our idea of justice is better and YOU guys are fubar.
Though I do agree change is needed with some of our laws & sentencing, I do NOT agree this has any merit towards NOT having a DP at all. You handle your justice in Sweden, as far as the U.S goes on the DP" go back to your cloistered world of crumpets & tea @ 4 & knitting on the veranda . Sorry we shock your delicate sensibilities. Best Wishes WD. U.S. ]Hello ltdc and Whitediamond Have I ever said Swedish justice is near to Perfect? No i have not. And it is not. But thats not the subject of this board, let me remind you. The subject of this board is The DP. And plea bargains do present difficult problems. It is argued that capital punishment is a bargaining chip prosecutors need in order to secure life without parole pleas. And it is obvious that this tactic reveals profound ethical dilemmas as the threat of a death sentence can be used coercively, only increasing the risk of wrongful convictions. This is what I highlighted from the article in The Economist: Prosecutors hold all the cards. If a defence lawyer offers a witness $100 for a false alibi, he is guilty of bribery. But if a prosecutor offers a co-operating witness something far more valuable—the chance to avoid several years in a cell—that is just fine. With so much at stake, snitches sometimes tell prosecutors what they want to hear. One study found that nearly half of the cases in which people have been wrongfully sentenced to death hinged on false testimony by informants, typically criminals who were rewarded with lighter punishments. Isnt this an important problem? Best Euro wishes. Nils. I agree with what is highlighted is not good or working for the good. Still the DP should always remain on the table & used when qualifies..
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lordextinct
Freshman
Pro death penalty - full steam ahead!
Posts: 38
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Post by lordextinct on Nov 9, 2014 15:04:57 GMT -6
Valued Whitediamonds! I cannot but fully embrace Your point of view. Your lines sound plaindealing and fair. However, I must admit that this gentleman Nils knows what he is talking about, regarding certain aspects. He and I are of different opinions concerning death penalties, but he is a man of honour, one can tell. There are definately a lot of matters and routines to improve and reform. I shall always remain a pro DP, but every time I read the Death Penalty News, I am rather annoyed by the obvious inefficiency within the judicial system. Finally, if You permit, I would like to point out that I, personally, have never seen any one drinking tea on their veranda, or knitting for that matter. Sounds rather American to me and quite nice... Your genuinely devoted Lordextinct (sober and seaworthy).
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 9, 2014 15:18:26 GMT -6
I have no ill feelings towards Nils, I believe he is a man of honor too. LOL I thought the tea & knitting on the veranda was just a funny tongue in cheek, not mean't hateful at all. I have a weird sense of humor that comes out at times. ..
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Post by ltdc on Nov 10, 2014 12:31:40 GMT -6
It is argued that capital punishment is a bargaining chip prosecutors need in order to secure life without parole pleas. And it is obvious that this tactic reveals profound ethical dilemmas as the threat of a death sentence can be used coercively, only increasing the risk of wrongful convictions.
"argued' isn't exactly definitive. and is this not exactly what I told you in my response to this article? this is NOT a death penalty problem, it is a prosecution problem. you simply cannot execute an innocent person without first convicting an innocent person, so "IF" there is a problem, take your argument there.
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Post by ltdc on Nov 10, 2014 12:38:21 GMT -6
Have I ever said Swedish justice is near to Perfect? No i have not. And it is not. But thats not the subject of this board, let me remind you.
let me remind you that "your" inferrence was that "we" execute justice as we see fit. I didn't ask if you thought your system was perfect but rather I asked if your country does not also execute justice as it sees fit. it remains unanswered.
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Post by nils on Nov 13, 2014 15:54:16 GMT -6
Hello America is a democratic nation with values similar or identical to European values. That's not the way we see it. Your values are different than ours. America is also the remaining global power. Not by choice. Americans are growing tired of carrying water for the rest of you. You euros need to step up. And even if Americas standing in The world is in question (due to rapid growth of China and others and failures such as Iraq/Afghanistan etc) Americas behavioir and continued strength is of vital importance for all of us. Right, so you can enjoy all the economic benefits of your "western" lifestyle with little of the responsibility. Of equal importance is that America stands by her democratic values. From nations such as Sudan, Pakistan, China and Russia we cannot expect systems of justice as we define it in the democratic world. I have hands on experience from Russia since we have an office there since 15 years. For almost ten years we have seen coming what is now obvious for the entire world. These nations and many others execute justice as they wish. So when democratic bastions such as America fails it hurts. Best wishes from Sweden Nils From where I sit the Chinese are much to be admired. I'd rather emulate their system of justice than yours. [quote author=" nils" source="/post/624193/thread" timestamp="1415343181"]Hello America is a democratic nation with values similar or identical to European values. That's not the way we see it. Your values are different than ours. America is also the remaining global power. Not by choice. Americans are growing tired of carrying water for the rest of you. You euros need to step up. And even if Americas standing in The world is in question (due to rapid growth of China and others and failures such as Iraq/Afghanistan etc) Americas behavioir and continued strength is of vital importance for all of us. Right, so you can enjoy all the economic benefits of your "western" lifestyle with little of the responsibility. Of equal importance is that America stands by her democratic values. From nations such as Sudan, Pakistan, China and Russia we cannot expect systems of justice as we define it in the democratic world. I have hands on experience from Russia since we have an office there since 15 years. For almost ten years we have seen coming what is now obvious for the entire world. These nations and many others execute justice as they wish. So when democratic bastions such as America fails it hurts. Best wishes from Sweden Nils From where I sit the Chinese are much to be admired. I'd rather emulate their system of justice than yours.[/quote] Hello Joseph. 1) in what respect do American values differ to European values? 2) You may be growing tired joseph, but pls remember that America is doing all it can to stay on top. we see very few signs America is eager to give up its leading role. 3) I agree. Europe is not to rely on. 4) you may admire China Joseph, but very likely they will not take the path you would like to see them take. and the Chinese system of justice isnt even near to what you expect it to be. So be careful what you wish for. my best Euro wishes Nils
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 13, 2014 16:23:37 GMT -6
I have to agree, be careful what you wish for. "I for one" certainly do not want to be like China's system of justice !!1
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Post by bernard on Nov 15, 2014 2:14:57 GMT -6
I'm always curious why Nils is worried about an innocent being executed in American when it's probably happening all the time in nations like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, China, North Korea etc. Why don't you go plead with them and then come back and help the "bad" old USA work on their injustices. Why are you so worried about murders in the US when there are so many in the Sudan, Iraq, Pakistan etc?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 14:14:57 GMT -6
The DP is the "plea bargain that prosecutors need in order to secure a LWOP sentence?" Uh, no. The DP is the sentence that prosecutors need to ask for in order to deter murder and in order to demonstrate to the convict that The People mean business when they enact DP laws--they're not making April Fool jokes.
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Post by robmedic on Nov 15, 2014 19:39:39 GMT -6
Hello and good evening everybody, thank you for allowing me to take part in your discussion forum. I have read a lot of the views here for some time now and been fascinated by the range of opinions, varying from sensible, thru moderate and all the way to the downright fascist. I felt I should register here to contribute my own thoughts to what is far from a simple US issue and maybe work out my own undecided ideas on the death penalty. Just a bit of background, I am a UK citizen, aged 44 years and a practising Physician. If you wish to verify my credentials my GMC number is 4413367. I am the father of four children. You will all be aware that my country and the rest of Europe abolished the Death penalty between 1965 and 1990 or so. As a devotee of the principle of the sanctity of life but a natural staunch conservative, the death penalty provides me with massive internal conflict, despite my wish to ensure the safety of me, my family and fellow citizens from violent crime. Just as an aside I NEVER refer women for termination of pregnancy and I have no interest or belief in euthanasia. In the UK, DP was abolished in 1965, largely as a result of two massive miscarriages of justice, in the Evans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans) and Bentley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bentley_case) cases. Pre 1965 UK capital cases proceeded much more quickly to execution than is currently the case in the United States, which could be argued, led to these miscarriages of justice. Nonetheless, I read on this forum that the opinion is to accelerate the process of conviction to execution in order to improve the deterrent effect of the death penalty. In other words, reduce the bureaucracy and legal wrangling in capital cases to clear your death rows and show an example to others. What I can’t reconcile myself with however, is the inevitable situation where an innocent is convicted and sentenced to death. Both the UK and US legal systems have done this and executed people who have later been exonerated. From my reading, the only reason that the current US system has not executed multiple innocent individuals since the lifting of the moratorium is that the legal process in the US is so protracted, inconsistently-applied and unpredictable that individuals have their rightful chance of being cleared during their 10-25 year period on death row. If this is the case, the argument for the death penalty becomes hugely weakened since the deterrent effect of it is diminished the longer an offender is kept alive. The ultimate example of the deterrent effect of capital punishment in my opinion is Saudi Arabia If we want to see a system of deterrence then I believe this is it. Public beheading. Immediate death, no botched lethal injections or electrocutions and the most visible public example of the consequences of murder. Unfortunately however, the Saudis aren’t that concerned with burden of truth, so we go back to the US system of 25 years of unbelievably costly appeals and lack of deterrence. I really WANT to believe in the principle of paying the ultimate price for the most heinous of crimes, but the American justice system en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_State_of_California_vs._Orenthal_James_Simpson is not so much based on what is just, but money, influence and racial stereotypes. And that is dangerous. That is why the whole of the European continent has outlawed judicial execution. None of our legal systems are good enough to always be certain. If you can show me a system in which you can guarantee the accused is 100% guilty and no person who is innocent could ever be executed; then I’d be all for the death penalty. Otherwise, if we’re willing for the occasional innocent to be executed just to keep the death penalty alive, then it seems we’re no better than the murderer. • “It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever” Sir William Blackstone 1765.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 11:04:05 GMT -6
If you can show me a system in which you can guarantee the accused is 100% guilty and no person who is innocent could ever be executed; then I’d be all for the death penalty. Otherwise, if we’re willing for the occasional innocent to be executed just to keep the death penalty alive, then it seems we’re no better than the murderer. This argument makes no sense unless you include imprisonment along with the death penalty. Let's say a person is convicted of murder at age 40 and is locked into a maximum security penitentiary for 40 years. Then someone makes a deathbed confession to the crime, the evidence is examined to be irrefutable, and the wrongfully imprisoned man is released. He lives for 2 more years and dies of natural causes. This innocent man lost 40 years of his life. Yes, he was breathing air and was technically alive, but life as he knew it was destroyed. His ability to enjoy living was robbed of him by an imperfect justice system. You can't have it both ways. Either you have to admit that humankind is not capable of any 100% perfect justice system, therefore leaving room for both imprisonment and the death penalty, or you have to abolish them both in the name of fairness. Claiming that prison is a safety net for wrongful execution is a specious, cruel argument.
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 16, 2014 14:00:21 GMT -6
As a devotee of the principle of the sanctity of life quote] Are you really?
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Post by robmedic on Nov 16, 2014 17:24:46 GMT -6
Very much so! my career is devoted to the preservation of life and relief of suffering. It's what I do. I'm not entirely sure of the point you're getting at there?" This argument makes no sense unless you include imprisonment along with the death penalty. Let's say a person is convicted of murder at age 40 and is locked into a maximum security penitentiary for 40 years. Then someone makes a deathbed confession to the crime, the evidence is examined to be irrefutable, and the wrongfully imprisoned man is released. He lives for 2 more years and dies of natural causes. This innocent man lost 40 years of his life. Yes, he was breathing air and was technically alive, but life as he knew it was destroyed. His ability to enjoy living was robbed of him by an imperfect justice system.
You can't have it both ways. Either you have to admit that humankind is not capable of any 100% perfect justice system, therefore leaving room for both imprisonment and the death penalty, or you have to abolish them both in the name of fairness. Claiming that prison is a safety net for wrongful execution is a specious, cruel argument."I accept the imperfection of all justice systems and emphasised in my post that no human judicial (or any other) process is perfect. Hence the multiple miscarriages of justice we all know about. But to say that we should stop imprisoning people in case we get it wrong if we were to abolish the death penalty on that basis, is about as specious as it gets! Whilst you provide a good example of a significant LWOP miscarriage of justice, there is one huge and undeniable difference. The death penalty is irreversible. So, to continue your example, the innocent person released after 40 years of incarceration has every reason to be undeniably p**sed-off to high Heaven but he at least would be there to see his pardon. What good is a Presidential pardon when your ashes have been scattered to the four winds? In addition it seems just a tiny bit hypocritical to me to say Prison's too good and 'enjoyable' for murderers when arguing against LWoP in favour of the death penalty, then make the total opposite point that prison is a total misery experience when talking about LWoP miscarriages of justice. We all agree and accept that there is little possibility of any Judicial system getting it right all the time. We will always miss the guilty and inculpate the innocent. So we have to make sure there's a mechanism for putting things right when we inevitably get it wrong. Forgive me, but I'm not sure how that can be done when the exonerated individual is dead.Best Wishes,Rob
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 16, 2014 19:39:06 GMT -6
Very much so! my career is devoted to the preservation of life and relief of suffering. It's what I do. I'm not entirely sure of the point you're getting at there?" Preservation of life & relief of the suffering, that is what you do. If that is what you do, then go after the medical field on all the abortions going on, for thousands of years the medical wislom has known abortion is a barbaric act of violence the kills innocent human beings. Human embryos & fetus are nothing less than tiny human beings. That is your profession seems all those innocents should be of your first & foremost concern. Abortions rip off arms & heads.
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Post by robmedic on Nov 17, 2014 1:20:18 GMT -6
Your point is valid as an example of society's hypocrisy but not as an ad-hominem criticism of myself as a physician nor my profession. I do not take part in any termination of pregnancy proceedings despite my role as a community physician placing me in a front line role. I also debate the pros and cons of ToP with my colleagues both face to face and online.
The whole point of my post was that as a person of naturally conservative opinions and politics, the Death Penalty stretches my ethical stance to its limits. This thread is entitled "A Plea for Change - (American) Justice. " -my parentheses; since the issue is far from solely American. The reason after much thought about this that I concluded I could not agree with the idea Capital punishment, is that I don't believe we are good enough as societies to get it right all the time. If we get it wrong once, we are cheapening the very lives we seek to defend and are just as culpable as the murderer who went free.
Lee Rigby Murder is the closest much of the UK has come in many years to calling for the reinstatement of capital punishment. These individuals were videoed in the street hacking an unarmed serviceman to death. How could there be any argument against executing these two? My own thoughts were that if you execute one, you have to execute them all and we know in that case we will inevitably execute innocents.
Regards,
Rob.
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 17, 2014 9:57:03 GMT -6
Your point is valid as an example of society's hypocrisy but not as an ad-hominem criticism of myself as a physician nor my profession. I do not take part in any termination of pregnancy proceedings despite my role as a community physician placing me in a front line role. I also debate the pros and cons of ToP with my colleagues both face to face and online.
The whole point of my post was that as a person of naturally conservative opinions and politics, the Death Penalty stretches my ethical stance to its limits. This thread is entitled "A Plea for Change - (American) Justice. " -my parentheses; since the issue is far from solely American. The reason after much thought about this that I concluded I could not agree with the idea Capital punishment, is that I don't believe we are good enough as societies to get it right all the time. If we get it wrong once, we are cheapening the very lives we seek to defend and are just as culpable as the murderer who went free.
Lee Rigby Murder is the closest much of the UK has come in many years to calling for the reinstatement of capital punishment. These individuals were videoed in the street hacking an unarmed serviceman to death. How could there be any argument against executing these two? My own thoughts were that if you execute one, you have to execute them all and we know in that case we will inevitably execute innocents.
Regards,
Rob.
I was not critical personally of you, I am confused on why "your" in the profession you are, your not irrate (protesting) that the " Oath" is thrown out the window for abortions on "demand", yet at the same time anti's use the Oath to say the medical profession is not to be involved in DP's. That just seems it should be your first start before concerns of the "US" having a DP. "Your thoughts are if you execute one , you have to execute them all & we know in that case we will inevitabley execute innocents? Like abortion we are aborting innocent "on demand". Where as abortion to save a mothers life, or due to rape, etc are serious rational reasons for an abortion which still is taking a innocent life (violently. There are always exceptions, reality of life. With the DP we do not execute all murderers, & we never will. DP" no reason to do away with the DP anymore than totally do away with abortions. Society speaks volumes it's ok we will tolerate abortion "on demand" though. Yet, do not execute those who are raping & murdering our children/babies even. I am greatful we have a DP. Also it is insanity when someone incarcerated for murder (not on DR), murder's again inside those walls gets another 20 yrs or so added to their sentence.
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Post by ltdc on Nov 17, 2014 9:58:49 GMT -6
• “It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; Sir William Blackstone 1765. first, welcome. this can be a fun site. then this should be a bit of a conundrum. how do you feel about the "guilty" being released and then continuing to kill and sometimes going on to become serial killers? since "innocence" is ONE BIG pool of grey, which one is more tragic? the occassional, as yet non-existant, (post furhman) DP "innocent" or the easily confirmed deaths of innocents from released killers? you can look look them up on this site. 100% perfection is unattainable on this planet, desireable I suppose but unattainable. soooooo, what to do? do we then risk "caging" an innocent for life?
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Post by whitediamonds on Nov 17, 2014 14:52:10 GMT -6
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