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Post by Felix2 on Jan 28, 2010 6:50:08 GMT -6
I understand that this can be a possibility, but can you imagine how often this actually occurs? Of course nobody with an illness is constantly subject to its most debilitating effects, but what they are subject to is their constant potential - which just happens to be my entire point in this undying argument. First of all, I do not provoke inmates into acting out against me. We are all taught this, despite it being a natural thread of common sense. I denied this inmate what he was in no way entitled to, and he simply refused 'no' as a response. I do not offend any incarcerated person by referring to them as an inmate; they know as well as I do that the title is a matter-of-fact and not something I imposed upon them. If I know their last name, I will use it. Felix, please. Homosexuals do not eat people - cannibals do. I am not claiming that every crazy person on the planet does kill or that every killer is crazy. I have never claimed that. I'll say it one last time just for the record: The truly mentally ill can never be trusted, because they are without the natural restraints of conscience, self-control, regard for consequence and fear of punishment. In my opinion, these are the most dangerous kinds of people because they are naturally less than human - but still retain the ability to harm those around them.No Felix, it does not inhibit my ability to hold a position on the subject. You make it very hard for me to believe that you are a professional of any kind. Its factually incorrrect to say that people with serious mental illness do not posess the natural constraints of self control etc, they do. When experiencing and episode this natural control and empathy can fluctuatue depending on the nature of their illness. It returns with recovery. Given that you do not understand facts relating to howe people with mental illness behave etc, it is hardly surprising that you dont also recognise when you are exchanging posts with a professional in that arena. You not only find it hard to believe I am a professional, for Gods sake, you find it hard to believe some folk are human so its all uphill I guess.
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Post by phatkat on Jan 28, 2010 7:26:05 GMT -6
According to this site: www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=3-105&lang=1 - the recollection of psychosis by one sufferer states that at the time of its onset, he/she did not feel like anything was wrong. Then, we have the support of various types of conditions that carry psychosis. Now, I'm not sure which population they are referring to, but they do state that psychosis is a common medical condition. I have a small scenario for you - in defense of my original claim that people with mental illness/disorder cannot be trusted: You are in need of a babysitter; you have one of two choices. Those choices are, of course: A. The mentally competent middle-aged woman, or B. The sitter with a history of mental disorder/illness with our without recorded psychosis. FOR ALL FUTURE REFERENCE, TYPING IN ALL CAPS DOES NOT IMPROVE MY DESIRE TO SWAY TO YOUR ARGUMENT. I'm pretty familiar with what someone experiences while psychotic. I've talked in depth with a number of people who've been there. The site lists various conditions that CAN carry psychosis, including depression. However, many depression sufferers have not experienced psychosis. I'm not sure where that fits in your argument. The site also says it's a common medical condition "affecting 3% of the population". Compare that with 20% of the population that have a diagnosable mental illness in a given year. Hey, you know what? I know plenty of people with a history of severe depression and I would have them babysit my child in a heartbeat. Mental illnesses CAN be controlled and stabilized and I don't run away from mentally ill people making the sign of the cross like some people do. Obviously there's more to consider when selecting a babysitter than age and health history. And FYI, I use caps for emphasis. It's faster than bolding text. I don't do it just for you, sorry.
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Post by mcbox on Jan 28, 2010 20:11:41 GMT -6
Talked in depth with? I have witnessed it first-hand numerous times. You and Felix remind me of a person that's read every book in the world about Egypt, yet have no real clue what Egypt is like, or if it even exists because you study what others tell you from their own trips. Hey, you know what? My sister attempted suicide by downing a mass of pills with her two young children at home. She and her husband had been having a lot of problems, when he called her from work and told her he was leaving for good. How's that for the dangers of depression? You are really going to sit there and tell me that you would opt, in effort prove your point, to put your child in more danger than absolutely necessary? I swear, it's no wonder that the mentally ill excel in your profession - you people are nutjobs yourselves. Of course, you would go for the safe answer in depression; I'll take it as a given that you would leave your child with anyone with a mental disorder. Such a heroine.
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Post by mcbox on Jan 28, 2010 20:13:17 GMT -6
Felix, don't talk to me until you can spell your own name. Please, you're scaring the elders.
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Post by Elric of Melnibone on Jan 28, 2010 20:21:16 GMT -6
What???
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Post by Felix2 on Jan 29, 2010 3:13:55 GMT -6
Felix, don't talk to me until you can spell your own name. Please, you're scaring the elders. I find it hard to take you seriously, here you go bringing red herrings into it, I suspect it is something you do when cornered on an issue or point?
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Post by Felix2 on Jan 29, 2010 3:17:32 GMT -6
Talked in depth with? I have witnessed it first-hand numerous times. You and Felix remind me of a person that's read every book in the world about Egypt, yet have no real clue what Egypt is like, or if it even exists because you study what others tell you from their own trips. Hey, you know what? My sister attempted suicide by downing a mass of pills with her two young children at home. She and her husband had been having a lot of problems, when he called her from work and told her he was leaving for good. How's that for the dangers of depression? You are really going to sit there and tell me that you would opt, in effort prove your point, to put your child in more danger than absolutely necessary? I swear, it's no wonder that the mentally ill excel in your profession - you people are nutjobs yourselves. Of course, you would go for the safe answer in depression; I'll take it as a given that you would leave your child with anyone with a mental disorder. Such a heroine. And I suppose you are a bit like the heart surgery patient who refused the surgery because the surgeon had not had a direct personal experience of having a heart problem? You're beginning to sound silly to my mind and your arguement is fragmenting as you proceed. Regarding your sister, what makes you say it was depression? Sound to me her actions were an impulsive reaction to an event. As for taking an overdose, it hardly solved her main problem, did it? I mean you were still her brother after she came around. ;D
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Post by mcbox on Jan 29, 2010 3:51:54 GMT -6
Follow Brumsong's lead and exit the conversation Felix. You're a moron.
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Post by brumsongs on Jan 29, 2010 6:11:58 GMT -6
Follow Brumsong's lead and exit the conversation Felix. You're a moron. Oh dear. I think the general argument against your point is that mental illness is far more complex than you think. In the case of "family annihilators", for instance, their general demeanour is extremely conformist until their final act. As my Granny used to say "All the world's a little queer except for me and thee, and even thee's a LITTLE queer!"
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Post by phatkat on Jan 29, 2010 7:18:26 GMT -6
Talked in depth with? I have witnessed it first-hand numerous times. As have I. Point?? Actually, it's more like Felix and I both live and work in Egypt. I don't know how you can be aware that we both work intensively with mental illness sufferers all day and then say such a thing. You're silly. Sure, make assumptions and "take it as a given" in order to prove your point. I didn't say a word about putting children in danger or leaving them with "anyone with a mental disorder' including strangers and those who ARE dangerous, but if it's what it takes to help you win the argument and feel better about yourself...*shrug* I used depression as an example of a largely-non-psychotic mental disorder since you were so stuck on equating mental illness with psychosis. Is it worth it that I even try to use complete sentences when I post?? All I see you do is pick out random words and phrases to prove your point. I am well aware of the dangers of depression when someone is in a downward spiral. I also know that someone at their worst is not indicative of someone's functioning, capabilities, or worth as a whole.
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Post by Felix2 on Jan 29, 2010 9:34:42 GMT -6
Follow Brumsong's lead and exit the conversation Felix. You're a moron. In take the point I just made was a little too close to the truth for your comfort then? Dont worry, I am not that bothered continuing to waste information by sending it your direction. You have demonstrated all I need to know and any further effort on my poart would be pointless. Bit like suggesting cognitive behaviour therapy for Morons I suppose, far too copmplicate4d for them to engage in.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Jan 29, 2010 9:56:07 GMT -6
mcbox - some advice -
1. Don't argue with mental health professionals on the definition of mental illness, crazy or any other adjective that describes the human condition.
2. Don't argue with mental health professionals about whether it is just, right or ethical to put one of their patients to death. It is their job to save these people and if they didn't have the hope and faith that they could help then they would not be very good at their profession.
3. When you are in over your head bow out gracefully and never throw out insults when it is obvious your argument has unraveled.
4. Take note of the number of posts under a person's avatar. It doesn't mean they are correct, it does mean they have practiced at defending their points and if they are still here they are very good at it. Bob summed it up early on for the originator of this post. Go back and check his response it applies in this situation as well.
5. The mental health profession is constantly evolving and progressing. Once we blamed mental illness on evil spirits, then we discovered there was a medical component so we started drilling into people's heads and removing parts of their brains. Now, we use medication. Medicine and mental health are called practices for a reason. No professional here will tell you they know everything, but I would hazard a guess that they know a great deal more than you do. I have to agree with Felix that exposure to mental illness either directly or via a family member or friend does not qualify one as an expert in all mental illness. You may be familiar with the specific case, but not all the aspects of mental illness. I can speak from my own experiences; it is terrible to watch someone that you know and love become someone else due to mental illness. I do not understand it; I can learn about it, but I will never know everything.
Finally, your statement that the mentally ill are sub-human really disturbs me. Please elaborate.
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Post by brumsongs on Jan 29, 2010 11:01:43 GMT -6
recent studies have shown that schizophrenics in tribal communities cope much better and recover more quickly than those in modern society. The "possessed by demons" theory still common in these communities gives people a way of understanding the condition as something commonplace. Resultingly, those suffering are kept within the community and helped. The Western practice of separating the mentally ill from society is looking to be counterproductive for the patient (who becomes isolated and disorientated) and the community who lose the collective knowledge of how to treat such people. I'd say McBox is a shining (sorry glaring) example of the latter.
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Post by Californian on Jan 29, 2010 11:06:17 GMT -6
Resultingly, those suffering are kept within the community and helped. The Western practice of separating the mentally ill from society is looking to be counterproductive for the patient (who becomes isolated and disorientated) and the community who lose the collective knowledge of how to treat such people. I'd say McBox is a shining (sorry glaring) example of the latter. Most schizophrenics are not institutionalized. Modern drugs can ameliorate most or all of the signs and symptoms. The problem is, of course, making sure they take their meds. This is difficult with the mentally ill. Also, most tend to "mature out" in their 40s and later. Schizophrenia usually initially manifests in the late teens.
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Post by brumsongs on Jan 29, 2010 11:18:10 GMT -6
Resultingly, those suffering are kept within the community and helped. The Western practice of separating the mentally ill from society is looking to be counterproductive for the patient (who becomes isolated and disorientated) and the community who lose the collective knowledge of how to treat such people. I'd say McBox is a shining (sorry glaring) example of the latter. Most schizophrenics are not institutionalized. Modern drugs can ameliorate most or all of the signs and symptoms. The problem is, of course, making sure they take their meds. This is difficult with the mentally ill. Also, most tend to "mature out" in their 40s and later. Schizophrenia usually initially manifests in the late teens. Agree with all of that. The point these studies make is that treating the mentally ill as "other" and not part of society excacerbates their condition. Institutionalized or not that is the attitude most schizophrenics face. I'm trying to highlight the folly of Mcbox's "subhuman" contention.
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Post by Californian on Jan 29, 2010 12:17:41 GMT -6
Agree with all of that. The point these studies make is that treating the mentally ill as "other" and not part of society excacerbates their condition. Institutionalized or not that is the attitude most schizophrenics face. I'm trying to highlight the folly of Mcbox's "subhuman" contention. Your arguments are well-stated and accurate, in my opinion.
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Post by Felix2 on Jan 29, 2010 16:28:48 GMT -6
Agree with all of that. The point these studies make is that treating the mentally ill as "other" and not part of society excacerbates their condition. Institutionalized or not that is the attitude most schizophrenics face. I'm trying to highlight the folly of Mcbox's "subhuman" contention. Your arguments are well-stated and accurate, in my opinion. Ditto, the irony of Mcwhatisnames position, is that his attitude helps create the conditions he claims to loathe in other people unfortunate enough to have more on thier plate to live with than some. I really find it refreshing the way those who encounter some form of mental illness are so accepting of others and sometimes so less judgemental.
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Post by phatkat on Jan 29, 2010 19:16:23 GMT -6
I feel quite encouraged after reading the last several posts. I agree 100% that isolating, dehumanizing, and stigmatizing the mentally ill only decreases the possibility that they'll ever be contributing members of society. Those who have supportive people who still treat them as human beings are the ones that I've seen function much better.
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Post by mcbox on Jan 29, 2010 20:58:16 GMT -6
Whoahohoho! The bombadeers have come. Even from both sides of the fence!
Felix, you're a moron. I state that you are such not to forfeit my argument, but to help justify your moronic claims. It is my dismissal of any subsequent replies you have on the subject. I'm still listening to phatkat and Brums because they actually make some sense.
Unlike what I have done, I have yet to see one sliver of referenced proof to support any of your claims. Brumsongs believes famous people cannot be dangerous. phatkat thinks that it's cool to leave your child in the care of the mentally ill (versus the mentally competent). Felix thinks he's a moron. Your responses are, at best, dodgy and dismissing.
Sub, you have no place in advising me. You walked into this argument somewhere near the end asking about an issue that got shot in the head a few pages back.
1. I can argue with whom I please, as long as they agree to disagree. 2. I work with many, many, many patients every day that you do, in fact, agree with their execution. What about lil ol' me's rights? Boo hoo. 3. Nobody called you in to referee. 4. The only thing the number of posts means is that people spend more time than others on these boards - or their user is honkybouffant. Who is Bob? 5. What are we going to discover next? - that after 2,000 years of tinkering with the human psyche, we'll discover that, hey, they really were demons after all!
Explain this statement to me, Brums. Are you saying that they are so conformist as to be totally unpredictable at the time of their 'final act'?
Well, look here: Now, that makes 3 of us.
Pick out random words? What in the hell does that mean, really? No, I'm sorry, random words are this: yes what elephant mediocre plasma jump. What I have said is my case defending my opinion, which must mean something to you, or so many of you would not have taken so much of your precious time in attempting to dissolve it. Usually, if something makes no sense to me, I tend to disregard it and move on..
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Post by phatkat on Jan 29, 2010 21:48:35 GMT -6
Whoahohoho! The bombadeers have come. Even from both sides of the fence! And it's funny, because some of us "bombadeers" have never agreed on a single issue that has ever come up on this board. Trust me, Cali would never find a reason to take my side of an issue unless he really and truly happened to fall on the same side of the argument. I wonder why "both sides of the fence" are uniting on the opposing side, and not a single person has stepped up to say that they agree with you? Some of the most incompetent people I know are not mentally ill...and there are people with a mental illness that is well-controlled enough that they are very competent. I also never said I favored one category over the other, but that I'd consider a number of factors. You can't tell me that you'd leave your child in any random person's care just because that person happened to never have been diagnosed by a mental health professional. If someone agrees to disagree, then by nature, wouldn't they have ceased arguing? Yes, but by nature of your job, you haven't had much - if any - training in the pathology of mental illness. Felix and I both have and choose to work specifically with those who deal with mental illness. You deal with it more as a secondary coincidence of your job. Furthermore, you deal with those who are mentally ill, felons, and largely untreated. I (can't speak for Felix; I know he's got a different job title) deal largely with those who are not felons (including my history of working with adults), who make up the larger population of those in the mental health system. I can see where you would have a different view, although I still believe that to call someone less than human because of a mental illness that they did not ask for is ignorant, degrading, and cruel. That you take parts of things that I say, sometimes down to one single word (i.e. "You mentioned depression!") and then argue with a point that is completely outside the context of the point that I actually made. It hasn't been that much time in the grand scheme of things. And yes, it does mean something to me. Obviously I have chosen to devote much of my life, time, energy, and resources to advocating for, understanding, and helping those with mental health issues. Hearing you talk about mental illness in such a derogatory and ignorant way is the sort of thing that makes my hair stand on end. True, you're only one person, but as others have pointed out, stigmatizing mental illness can have a devastating effect on everyone. The more people like you who are out there, the greater chance that people who need help will only get ostracization.
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Post by phatkat on Jan 29, 2010 21:55:29 GMT -6
Most schizophrenics are not institutionalized. Modern drugs can ameliorate most or all of the signs and symptoms. The problem is, of course, making sure they take their meds. This is difficult with the mentally ill. Case managers can be very helpful with that....as can therapists. You can't cure psychosis with talk therapy, but you can help someone to gain insight on their condition, including the need to take meds even when the maladaptive part of their mind tries to convince them that they don't need them or that they enjoy the high of psychosis too much to stabilize it. But yeah....it can be difficult.
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Post by mcbox on Jan 30, 2010 5:02:46 GMT -6
What's even funnier is that you have collectively gained no ground with me as of yet.
Your greatest points to date are that I have either little or no training (which is untrue - I work with these people; do you not think that my agency is going to teach us about them?). Mental illness does not make one unpredictable, rather, my ignorance of them does so. Not every person with a mental illness is a killer or cannibal or harmful to others (I support this claim, and have never denied it.). Black people are special.
People are afraid to say anything because they know that you are educated in the field. That doesn't say much in a professional world that includes the likes of George W. Bush. Do you know how many professionals have made drastically erroneous decisions throughout history? Innumerable.
What context did you intend by stating that you prefer your children to be cared for by the mentally ill? That is a lot like saying that you prefer your kids to play in the road because the yard is just too safe. I know exactly what you meant.
No, you elementary schoolgirl, to agree means to admit a true statement. The fact that we disagree is a true statement.
Do you honestly believe that the inmates who suffer mental illness go untreated? First of all, the object of my position is to provide security. By allowing an inmate with mental illness to go untreated, I have weakened security and failed at my job. If the inmate hurts himself due to lack of treatment, someone is also looking at a negligence lawsuit.
Mentally incompetent! Can you not comprehend English?! Competence in a general statement covers a wide array of human ability. We are not discussing the likes of the flaming idiot, either.
You know what makes my hair stand on end? The fact that you support the livelihood of child killers/rapists and those viciously indifferent toward the value of human life. In fact, it downright sickens me to know this. You think that the sum of two arms, two legs and a head equals a human being. You are, in fact, superficial to the bone.
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Post by mcbox on Jan 30, 2010 5:17:26 GMT -6
recent studies have shown that schizophrenics in tribal communities cope much better and recover more quickly than those in modern society. The "possessed by demons" theory still common in these communities gives people a way of understanding the condition as something commonplace. Resultingly, those suffering are kept within the community and helped. The Western practice of separating the mentally ill from society is looking to be counterproductive for the patient (who becomes isolated and disorientated) and the community who lose the collective knowledge of how to treat such people. I'd say McBox is a shining (sorry glaring) example of the latter. Are we conditionally supporting long-debunked beliefs about psychology now? Are you claiming that modern medicine pales in contrast to ancient medicine? Based on what facts does the West alienate the mentally ill from society (in contrast with the rest of the planet)? Does my opinion really account for that much in the world?
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Post by mcbox on Jan 30, 2010 5:40:37 GMT -6
Let me tell you something about being ostracized. The uncle which I spoke about earlier, a schizophrenic, was constantly ostracized by my whole family when I was much younger. They would tell him things like, "Take your 'friends' and go home - we don't want to hear that - the kids don't need to hear some of the things you say".
Now, I'll take the statements apart. Referring to his illness as having 'friends' was always offensive and coarse to me. I cared about my uncle, and largely did not agree with the way my family treated him. However, the reason he had episodes is because he refused to take his medication; he felt nothing was wrong with him. My aunt had to mix them into his food and drink just to hope that he wouldn't notice. It did not take long to decide when you've heard enough of, "EAT SH!T AND DIE MOTHERFU--ER!! F--K YOU! YOU CAN SUCK MY C--K AND EAT IT B--CH"! He liked to spit after each of these wild exclamations, creating another unwanted effect of his refusal to self-medicate.
They were afraid of him, and in hindsight, rightly so. Someone who is not aware that they are screaming at the top of their lungs, whilst covering their surroundings in saliva is, in my book, dangerous. If you disagree with my position, that is your opinion and right.
My position will not change. You will not convince me otherwise. There is nothing left but mindless repetition to debate.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Jan 30, 2010 6:52:41 GMT -6
Sub, you have no place in advising me. You walked into this argument somewhere near the end asking about an issue that got shot in the head a few pages back. You got it scooter. However, when everyone is against you then you are probably wrong (not advice) and I don't need your permission to jump into any fray I choose. This is not your exclusive domain. Now, continue being an idiot!
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Post by mcbox on Jan 30, 2010 7:11:35 GMT -6
I seem to recall, a handful of centuries ago, that most everyone in the world knew the world was flat. Had it not been for the expeditions of one brash adventurer, we might still today know what is absolutely false.
I really wish you people would make up your minds. Are you or are you not attempting to give me advice?!
Sure, you are certainly free to weasel your way in to the discussion if I allow it. I'm allowing you to continue your responses by responding to them. If I don't put down the food bowl, then you have nothing to sustain you.
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Post by brumsongs on Jan 30, 2010 7:30:59 GMT -6
I seem to recall, a handful of centuries ago, that most everyone in the world knew the world was flat. Had it not been for the expeditions of one brash adventurer, we might still today know what is absolutely false. I really wish you people would make up your minds. Are you or are you not attempting to give me advice?! Sure, you are certainly free to weasel your way in to the discussion if I allow it. I'm allowing you to continue your responses by responding to them. If I don't put down the food bowl, then you have nothing to sustain you. Grandiosity, delusions of power and a need for control, mmmmm.... I think I'm gaining some insight into why this subject riles you up so much.
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Post by mcbox on Jan 30, 2010 7:43:44 GMT -6
Really? What is it indicative of? Their capacity for forgiveness and mercy as they lie on the execution gurney?
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Post by mcbox on Jan 30, 2010 7:54:49 GMT -6
I have as much delusion of power as you do, Brums. Like it or not, as the contributors to a cause fall away, the beneficiary eventually expires.
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Post by Californian on Jan 30, 2010 7:59:39 GMT -6
]Really? What is it indicative of? Their capacity for forgiveness and mercy as they lie on the execution gurney? It's indicative of assuming facts not in evidence. You seem to be assuming that all schizophrenics are violent and murderous. That's simply not true.
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