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Post by MrCoffee on May 13, 2004 22:05:19 GMT -6
Kelsey Patterson indeed had a pet tiger, and refused to manage it. That tiger was his mental illness. He was aware of what he did at the time, and was found to be knowing of the difference between right and wrong. Kelsey was aware of his actions, and is aware of the consequences.
Kelsey Patterson reflects badly on people with mental health issues. He reflects badly on those who make a real effort to manage their condition, and function decently in society. Michele: Your relative wasn't the only victem of this crime. Kelsey Patterson made a victem out of every person affected by psychiatric and developmental disabilities.
MrCoffee
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Post by Donnie on May 13, 2004 22:05:25 GMT -6
No one wants to see you or your family denied justice. Justice must be served, sure -- but let's get those responsible. So how many people in the Texas state government should we execute and how do we pick them?
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Post by Joel on May 14, 2004 0:15:00 GMT -6
Kelsey Patterson indeed had a pet tiger, and refused to manage it. That tiger was his mental illness. He was aware of what he did at the time, and was found to be knowing of the difference between right and wrong. Kelsey was aware of his actions, and is aware of the consequences. Kelsey Patterson reflects badly on people with mental health issues. He reflects badly on those who make a real effort to manage their condition, and function decently in society. Michele: Your relative wasn't the only victem of this crime. Kelsey Patterson made a victem out of every person affected by psychiatric and developmental disabilities. MrCoffee Yours is fallacious reasoning, to say the least, as well as unethical. To mask your desire to see "justice done" as some kind of cockeyed concern for the mentally ill is grotesquely dishonest, and I think you know that. The fact is, not all people with mental illness can "manage" their disease. To assign moral culpability to any sick person's "failure" to manage illness is only possible to the extent that a mental illness's severity allows self-management. Many illnesses, and not just schizophrenia, reach a stage where patients are unable to care for themselves. Clearly, some severely ill schizophrenics cannot take of themselves. If you understood the illness even slightly better, you would know this already. Most schizophrenics, of course, pose no danger to society, but even if they fail to "self-manage" their illness (and here, you can only really be talking about taking medication responsibly), they rarely kill. Kelsey Patterson belongs to a very small percentage of schizophrenics who are both dangerous to society and beyond self-management. In this, he is not alone. What's different about Patterson comes down to two things: a) he was repeatedly denied care requested by his family and b) the county and state authorities in Texas were negligent in failing to protect Michele's mother and Louis Oates -- and all of us -- from a man with a dangerous, well-documented history of violence and mental illness. Michele and her family ought to be suing Anderson County and the State of Texas Department of Health, not calling for the death of a madman.
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Post by TexasLady on May 14, 2004 7:23:17 GMT -6
If someone own a pet tiger (and there are people in Texas who do!) and through neglect and incompetence, that person allowed the tiger to escape, the tiger would do what tigers do: kill and eat. Would you blame the tiger? Of course not. While I disagree with your analogy, if you insist on using it keep in mind that while you may not "blame" the tiger, the tiger would definitely be destroyed.
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Post by TexasLady on May 14, 2004 7:25:37 GMT -6
Whatever you think but I call it JUSTICELUST and I have waited a long time for it. Michele Michele, Obviously you found a way to say what you needed to say. I really hope you get the closure you need to move away from the horror of your mother's death and toward the happiness she gave you when she was alive. Good luck to you. As I said before, you're in my thoughts.
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Post by Joel on May 14, 2004 9:17:19 GMT -6
While I disagree with your analogy, if you insist on using it keep in mind that while you may not "blame" the tiger, the tiger would definitely be destroyed. Analogies are by definition imperfect comparisons, and it's intellectually dishonest of you to say that I have "insisted" on using one. Actually, there are only a few states -- surprise, Texas again is one -- where animals who injure or kill human beings are by statute put to death. So your wrong in even as you try to extend my comparison in a distorted way. Finally, if all human beings who killed unlawfully in the USA were "destroyed," there would have to be thousands of executions every month. Of course, I suppose that's the kind of world you're apparently willing to live with. By the way, your manipulative and totally fake concern for Michele is disgusting. It's horrible to see vulnerable family members of crime victims treated with such grotesque patronization. If you're like any of the other pro-DP advocates I've interviewed, you use people like Michele as a way to mask your own self-hatred. Talk about predatory! I remember once interviewing former Harris County Prosecutor Johnny Holmes -- a man who has sent hundreds of men and women to the death house in Huntsville. He also liked to act all concerned for crime victims and their families. But if you really got to know Johnny, you realized what was really driving him. I did not want to believe it. I tried hard to ignore it, to keep an open mind. But in the end, what I saw in Johnny Holmes can only have only name. It has been called The Enemy or "Satan." It was, in my view, an active force of goodness twisted into something evil, just as the beautiful angel Lucifer became a monster. So before you go expressing your heartfelt concern for Michele, you should know what you're selling her. Not closure. Not peace. Not resolution. But the cold comfort of evil.
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Post by jenniferwa on May 14, 2004 10:32:10 GMT -6
FIRST OF ALL, JOEL, you do not know TexasLady's motivation. nor do you know ANY of ProDP's motivation on this board (unless you specifically interviewed someone and gotten to know them, I'm betting you HAVEN'T). Based on your posts, you think higher of criminals who have killed people out of the evil desire of their heart than you do of the people on this board. why don't you LEAVE if you don't like us? I don't see this board called "AntiDP message board" why don't you go find one of THOSE and leave us alone?
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Post by chele on May 14, 2004 10:58:43 GMT -6
I guess from the beginning I have not understood why anyone that is AntiDP would be on this board. I came here specifically seeking support of people that might understand my point of view and be supportive; not to argue with people that didn't see things the way I do. There are lots of places to go and chat about ANTI DP, this is the only one I have found to be Pro. I appreciate any postings of sympathy and do not feel patronized. For whatever the reason of support I welcome it and I am thankful that they would take the time to respond. I do have another update... The Supreme Court Denied his appeal today. I am keeping my fingers crossed.
Joel: I understand that you want to argue your point of view but I just do not have that kind of energy. I read what you post, but for the most part I don't reply. If I disagree I just ignore and know that no matter what point you make, unless you are having a vote on the Pardons and Parole Board next week it really doesn't matter. The Killer Will Be Executed!
Michele
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Post by jenniferwa on May 14, 2004 11:25:27 GMT -6
. There are lots of places to go and chat about ANTI DP, this is the only one I have found to be Pro. Michele Michele, here's a link to another Pro and it's ONLY Pro's. prodeathpenalty.org/
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Post by TexasLady on May 14, 2004 11:37:55 GMT -6
I guess from the beginning I have not understood why anyone that is AntiDP would be on this board. I came here specifically seeking support of people that might understand my point of view and be supportive; not to argue with people that didn't see things the way I do. There are lots of places to go and chat about ANTI DP, this is the only one I have found to be Pro. I appreciate any postings of sympathy and do not feel patronized. For whatever the reason of support I welcome it and I am thankful that they would take the time to respond. I do have another update... The Supreme Court Denied his appeal today. I am keeping my fingers crossed. Joel: I understand that you want to argue your point of view but I just do not have that kind of energy. I read what you post, but for the most part I don't reply. If I disagree I just ignore and know that no matter what point you make, unless you are having a vote on the Pardons and Parole Board next week it really doesn't matter. The Killer Will Be Executed! Michele Michele, Try the partner site www.murdervictims.com They also have a message board and attacks by antis who know nothing of which they speak are not tolerated.
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Post by TexasLady on May 14, 2004 11:47:30 GMT -6
Analogies are by definition imperfect comparisons, and it's intellectually dishonest of you to say that I have "insisted" on using one. Actually, there are only a few states -- surprise, Texas again is one -- where animals who injure or kill human beings are by statute put to death. So your wrong in even as you try to extend my comparison in a distorted way. Finally, if all human beings who killed unlawfully in the USA were "destroyed," there would have to be thousands of executions every month. Of course, I suppose that's the kind of world you're apparently willing to live with. You're the one who came up with the analogy, not me. And I said, "If you insist", I did not say you insisted. Please list the states and statutes that do not put down animals who injure. I've lived in most states and visited them all. If an animal kills, it's destroyed unless there's a reason for it no to be. What is it you see me getting from my "manipulation" of the "vulnerable" Michele? How am I "using" her and for what purpose? What am I trying to get her to do? Why would my concern be "fake?" Since you don't know me or my situation, you have no idea of which you speak. Fortunately, I have no hate in me. If you'd hung around here long enough, you'd have known that. I think your attack of victims of crime is disgusting. If you try hard enough, maybe you can make some vulnerable MVS feel even worse. [/quote] I remember once interviewing former Harris County Prosecutor Johnny Holmes -- a man who has sent hundreds of men and women to the death house in Huntsville. He also liked to act all concerned for crime victims and their families. But if you really got to know Johnny, you realized what was really driving him. I did not want to believe it. I tried hard to ignore it, to keep an open mind. But in the end, what I saw in Johnny Holmes can only have only name. It has been called The Enemy or "Satan." It was, in my view, an active force of goodness twisted into something evil, just as the beautiful angel Lucifer became a monster. [/quote] AH! There it is. Another zealot. We'll (that would be Lucifer and I) will put you on our ignore list from now on.
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Post by MrCoffee on May 14, 2004 16:50:53 GMT -6
Yours is fallacious reasoning, to say the least, as well as unethical. To mask your desire to see "justice done" as some kind of*deleted*eyed concern for the mentally ill is grotesquely dishonest, and I think you know that. The fact is, not all people with mental illness can "manage" their disease. To assign moral culpability to any sick person's "failure" to manage illness is only possible to the extent that a mental illness's severity allows self-management. Many illnesses, and not just schizophrenia, reach a stage where patients are unable to care for themselves. My reasoning is practical, and ethical. I, for one, can understand what it is like to be a victem of crime. Been there, done that. While there are some people who are not able to manage their illness and must have someone else care for them, Kelsey Patterson is not one of them. Who is to say that his primary motive was not revenge against society for committing him involuntarily? The courts have determined that this man was indeed capable of choosing his own actions when the crime was committed. He stripped himself of all clothing so that the cops could see that he was unarmed. He knew the consequences, but did it anyway! This man was proven to have a callous disrespect for anybody else's life but his own. It is now time for him to pay for his actions. Please refrain from making decisions for Michele, Joel. Michele knows what she wants, and she wants closure for this horrid act. Since you are NOT Michele's guardian, you should not be trying to tell her what you think she needs. As others on this board have said, your treatment of crime victems is reprehensible. The above remarks to TexasLady were both disrespectful and totally uncalled for. Please find some place that is more accomodating to your opinions, thank you. MrCoffee
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Post by TexasLady on May 18, 2004 9:19:31 GMT -6
AUSTIN – Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott offers the following information on 50-year-old Kelsey Patterson, who is scheduled to be executed after 6 p.m. on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 In July 1993, Kelsey Patterson was sentenced to die for fatally shooting Louis Oates and Dorothy Harris in Palestine, TX, the prior year. A summary of the evidence presented at trial follows. FACTS OF THE CRIMEAt about 3 p.m. on September 25, 1992, Patterson walked out of his home in Palestine with a .38-caliber pistol in his hand. He walked to Oates Oil Company about a block away from his home and, without warning, shot its owner, Louis Oates, in the head. Oates fell to the ground in front of the loading dock and Patterson walked away. Oates’ secretary, Dorothy Harris, walked out of her office onto the loading dock, saw Oates’ body lying on the ground, and began screaming. Patterson returned and shot Harris. Then Patterson walked back to his house, put down the gun, removed all his clothing and began walking up and down the street in front of his home. Police arrived a short time late and arrested Patterson for his involvement in the double murder. PROCEDURAL HISTORYSept. 25, 1992 — Patterson arrested for murders of Louis Oates and Dorothy Harris. Oct. 16, 1992 — Patterson indicted for capital murder in Anderson County. June 1993 — An Anderson County jury finds Patterson competent to stand trial. July 1, 1993 — An Anderson County jury finds Patterson guilty of capital murder and assesses a death sentence. Nov. 29, 1995 — Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirms Patterson’s conviction and sentence on direct appeal. Dec. 8-9, 1997 — State habeas trial court, after granting Patterson funds to retain mental health expert, conducts evidentiary hearing concerning several of Patterson’s claims, including claim that he is incompetent to be executed. Mar. 10, 1998 — State habeas trial court issues findings of fact and conclusions of law and recommends denial of habeas corpus relief. May 13, 1998 — Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denies habeas corpus relief.
1998 — Patterson files petition for writ of habeas corpus in federal district court. Federal district court, after appointing independent mental health expert and granting Patterson funds to retain a partisan expert, conducts two evidentiary hearings concerning Patterson’s claim that he is incompetent to be executed. Jan. 22, 2001 — U.S. District Judge Paul Brown denies Patterson’s request for habeas corpus relief. May 23, 2003 — 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals affirms district court’s denial of relief and full briefing and oral argument from the parties. Nov. 10, 2003 — U.S. Supreme Court denies certiorari review. Dec. 23, 2003 — State trial court schedules Patterson’s execution for May 18, 2004 Jan. 28, 2004 — Patterson files motion to determine his competency for execution under Article 46.05 of the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure. Mar. 26, 2004 — State trial court conducts hearing on Patterson’s Article 46.05 motion. Mar. 31, 2004 — State trial court issues order concluding Patterson failed to raise substantial doubt regarding his competency for execution. April 2004 — Patterson files petition for writ of certiorari in the U.S. Supreme Court, which remains pending. April 2004 — Patterson files petition for writ of habeas corpus in U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Texas (Judge T. John Ward). May 11, 2004— A U.S. district court denies Patterson’s request for a stay of execution and a evidentiary hearing.PRIOR CRIMINAL HISTORYOn May 7, 1980, Patterson shot Richard Lane twice without provocation while they were working together at a Dallas hospital; Lane survived the incident. Patterson did not stand trial for the shooting because he was found mentally incompetent. On November 20, 1983, Patterson shot Kevin Hughes in the arm and chest without provocation while they were working together at a Palestine restaurant; Hughes survived the incident. Patterson did not stand trial for the shooting because he was found mentally incompetent. MISCELLANEOUSFor additional information and statistics, please log on the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website, www.tdcj.state.tx.us.
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 12:59:46 GMT -6
Looks like tonight Michele will have closure. I am thankful.
Jen
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 13:51:32 GMT -6
I honestly do not understand how anyone could think that they would get 'closure' by watching someone die... I wish someone could explain that to me. An execution only brings more suffering. You know, Kelsey Patterson has a mom too. I for one will be praying that he gets a last minute stay. This man belongs in a mental hospital, not on a gurney. Michele, I hope you get the closure you want, but I sincerely doubt that 'closure' is at all a possibility when a loved one is murdered. How on earth will I have 'closure' when the state of Texas kills beloved (not Patterson, mind you)...? mvfr.siteinhouse.com/index.jsp
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 13:54:08 GMT -6
I meant to say: "...when the state of Texas kills my beloved?"
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 14:06:33 GMT -6
I meant to say: "...when the state of Texas kills my beloved?" I'm sorry that you have a beloved that did something to have been put on death row, and I'm also sorry that you will lose him. I'm not a cold person, but the one who is to blame for bringing this pain on you is the one you love. I know that will sting, but I am not meaning to bring you more pain, I just believe that the people who should be considered MORE are the victims survivors (family and loved ones).
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 14:16:33 GMT -6
No, no no... There is a perfectly good alternative for the DP with NO extra victims... Life without parole. That way there won't be another family grieving over a lost loved one. If you lost someone to murder, do you wish the same on someone else...?
My loved one is not to blame for the fact that he's going to die. By rights, his case isn't even a capital case, but if it was, I still don't think he is the one is should be blaming. The death penalty is a disgusting methode that belongs in the Middle Ages. Have you even taken a look at what other countries besided the USA have the death penalty? I wouldn't call most of those civilized countries.
Say, if the death penalty is supposed to give closure to victims, and if that's its main purpose, should we not be killing ALL murderers? That fact of the matter is that the DP is applied arbitrarily. It is not the people who committed the most heinous crimes who end up on death row, it is those with the least amount of money or the wrong skin color... This has been proven again and again.
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 14:19:00 GMT -6
By the way, how am I any less a 'victim' if my beloved gets executed?
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 14:29:45 GMT -6
If you lost someone to murder, do you wish the same on someone else...? If I lost someone to murder, I would want to see justice done. I doubt I'd care much about the loved ones of the person who murdered mine. My loved one is not to blame for the fact that he's going to die. By rights, his case isn't even a capital case I don't know who your loved one is so I can't comment on his/her case. Say, if the death penalty is supposed to give closure to victims, and if that's its main purpose, should we not be killing ALL murderers? That fact of the matter is that the DP is applied arbitrarily. When I first joined this board, I didn't think all people who murder in the first degree should be killed, but now I do. If anyone murders someone and does it on PURPOSE, they deserve to die. I'm still sorry you'll lose your loved one, it just doesn't change my thinking on the death penalty.
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 14:32:26 GMT -6
If you lost someone to murder, do you wish the same on someone else...? If I lost someone to murder, I would want to see justice done. I doubt I'd care much about the loved ones of the person who murdered mine. My loved one is not to blame for the fact that he's going to die. By rights, his case isn't even a capital case I don't know who your loved one is so I can't comment on his/her case. Say, if the death penalty is supposed to give closure to victims, and if that's its main purpose, should we not be killing ALL murderers? That fact of the matter is that the DP is applied arbitrarily. When I first joined this board, I didn't think all people who murder in the first degree should be killed, but now I do. If anyone murders someone and does it on PURPOSE, they deserve to die. I'm still sorry you'll lose your loved one, it just doesn't change my thinking on the death penalty.
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 14:33:14 GMT -6
oops, didn't mean to post that twice. sorry
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 14:38:25 GMT -6
That would mean we would have thousands of executions every month. That's insane...
And just how would you ensure, having thousands of executions a month, that no innocent person would ever be killed? Or is that just 'collateral damage'?
Several people who have been executed since the reinstatement of the DP have been proven innocent...
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 14:52:48 GMT -6
I'm not going to get into an argument with you. I expressed sympathy for the fact that you'll go through pain when your loved one dies, but it doesn't change how I feel about the death penalty.
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 14:58:39 GMT -6
I know this is a little mean of me to say, but I'll take it that means you don't really have an answer to my question. There is no way to ensure that, as the past has proven...
God bless you.
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Post by Guest passing through ADP on May 18, 2004 15:00:15 GMT -6
I know this is a little mean of me to say, but I'll take it that means you don't really have an answer to my question. There is no way to ensure that, as the past has proven...
God bless you.
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Post by Chameleon on May 18, 2004 16:12:57 GMT -6
I really hope that Chele gets the closure she's waited so long for but after seeing a recent documentary titled "Dead Kid Walking" I am not sure that will happen. www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s50027.htmIn the press conference that followed the execution Noelle and Lorne Bellofatto didn't look any happier, in actual fact they both appeared even more consumed with hate against the guy who got executed. (Sean Sellers) Lorne Bellofatto, Sean's Stepbrother: "I think it's too humane, it's too easy. They offer you a sedative before they take you in and strap you down to the gurney..sit back, relax, enjoy the ride, close your eyes, when you open them again you're before whatever god you worship. There's no pain to it, there's no punishment to it, all you did was close your eyes and go to sleep."
Noelle Bellofatto, Sean's Stepsister: "Hi, I'm Noelle Bellofatto Terry. That's N-o-e-l-l-e, please. This is my husband Darren Terry, my mother Luli, my brother Lorne Bellofatto, his wife Elizabeth." Q:..how you felt when Sean Sellers addressed you all directly? A: It made me very angry. He took his last dig at us. Q: In what way? A: Well, he basically addressed the fact that we would still feel the same tomorrow as we do today, we would still have the same hatred in his heart and he was presumptuous to think that he knew how we felt. He is still as arrogant as he was in the very beginning.
Lorne Bellofatto, Sean's Stepbrother: "Never apologised, never said he was sorry. Cocky and arrogant all the way to the end. Never mentioned his mother once."that doesn't sound like closure to me.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2004 16:24:21 GMT -6
There is a huge difference, chances are you are a European death row groupie who never knew your belovedexisted before reading about him on some web page where he tells the world how he is innocent, and likes drawing and poetry and wants gullible women to write him letters. The way you are different is that you are the victim of his con at the moment, and if you choose to stick around him till he is executed you will just be another one of his victims. After all he chose to commit the crime after all. My suggestion is run, get away from this beloved of yours, and in the future try and get into relationships with people who haven't killed people. Try dating it just might work. By the way, how am I any less a 'victim' if my beloved gets executed?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2004 17:22:37 GMT -6
State and federal courts have reviewed this case no fewer than 10 times, examining his claims of mental illness and competency, as well as various other legal issues," Perry said in a statement less than an hour before Patterson's scheduled execution time. "In each instance the courts have determined there is no legal bar to his execution."
Statement of Governor Rick Perry. Denied clemency for killer kelsey patterson.
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Post by jenniferwa on May 18, 2004 17:33:33 GMT -6
is it a done deal? anybody heard?
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