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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 14:38:22 GMT -6
After seeing bits of this thread yesterday, I decided to see what I could find out about the effects on children when parents are incarcerated offenders. What I found from reading about a dozen sources is that they are not necessarily better off just because they can visit the offender - that Lady is right it can cause more trauma and problems than even the death of that parent would, in a significant number of cases in the studies I read about. If you don't mind, Janet, I'd like to interject a little bit, since I have some personal experience relative to this issue. As you know, my present wife has done time in prison. At no time during her incarceration did she want her family members to visit, particularly her two children. She was too ashamed, no less so than after she turned herself in and went back to prison voluntarily after a parole violation. Now you can say she wanted her kids to stay away out of fear -- specifically the fear of having to explain to them why she was in prison. VSP, however, is a terrible place. She would have loved to see her children, if only for a few minutes, while she was there. I prefer to think she prevented the visits because she didn't want her kids to see her in such a place. Can anyone here blame her? I can't question the motives or wisdom of any murderer who wants his/her children to visit. I don't put anything past a murderer. I do question, though, the motives of anyone else would want anyone's kids to visit a murderer. I don't see how that can possibly benefit a child. It sounds to me like your wife was thinking about what she believed was good for her children, Joe. I know I don't blame her. Heck you know I go to speak to kids in juvenile detention; we have talked about that many times. I have been invited to speak at adult prison, and could not even work up the courage to visit a minimum security adult prison - after viewing them on the web and reading about what I would see there, I declined.
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 25, 2009 15:29:39 GMT -6
It sounds to me like your wife was thinking about what she believed was good for her children, Joe. I know I don't blame her. Thanks. To this day she won't talk about those times with her kids. I wish she would. I go to speak to kids in juvenile detention; we have talked about that many times. I have been invited to speak at adult prison, and could not even work up the courage to visit a minimum security adult prison - after viewing them on the web and reading about what I would see there, I declined. I'm not sure most inmates, particularly most murderers, juvenile or otherwise, are ashamed of their criminal acts. Remorse that isn't self-serving is hard to endure, and American culture isn't big on taking the road less traveled. Everyone rationalizes behavior they know, or should know, is wrong. You must be good at what you do, or you wouldn't be doing it. I wonder, however, what it is you say, as a woman, to young men who have an extremely warped masculine image. I also wonder how many of them would just as soon rape you and leave you for dead as listen to what you have to say. I've been to women's prisons and those inmates are stone-cold scary, let me tell you. I can't imagine what you have to go through.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 16:02:19 GMT -6
It sounds to me like your wife was thinking about what she believed was good for her children, Joe. I know I don't blame her. Thanks. To this day she won't talk about those times with her kids. I wish she would. I go to speak to kids in juvenile detention; we have talked about that many times. I have been invited to speak at adult prison, and could not even work up the courage to visit a minimum security adult prison - after viewing them on the web and reading about what I would see there, I declined. I'm not sure most inmates, particularly most murderers, juvenile or otherwise, are ashamed of their criminal acts. Remorse that isn't self-serving is hard to endure, and American culture isn't big on taking the road less traveled. Everyone rationalizes behavior they know, or should know, is wrong. You must be good at what you do, or you wouldn't be doing it. I wonder, however, what it is you say, as a woman, to young men who have an extremely warped masculine image. I also wonder how many of them would just as soon rape you and leave you for dead as listen to what you have to say. I've been to women's prisons and those inmates are stone-cold scary, let me tell you. I can't imagine what you have to go through. They are kids Joe. One or two over the years have looked pretty scary on sight, but there are always multiple guards and 2 or 3 victim assistance personnel there too. Most of them just look like kids. I don't know anything about them on a personal level, other than the first name on their name tag (stick on, no needle allowed ). I don't even know what crime they committed. I do know their behavior has to be rated at one of the better levels to be allowed to attend. I just tell them about Bethena -who she was and what she was like, I pass around a scrapbook I made of pictures of her from baby through school years, and tell them about what we experienced because she was murdered - victim impact. What they do with it is up to them. If the letters that are forwarded to me after I talk with them are any indication, it might make a difference with at least some of them. If it is ever even one tiny part of even one of them turning around, that is reason enough for me.
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 25, 2009 16:18:32 GMT -6
Thanks. To this day she won't talk about those times with her kids. I wish she would. I'm not sure most inmates, particularly most murderers, juvenile or otherwise, are ashamed of their criminal acts. Remorse that isn't self-serving is hard to endure, and American culture isn't big on taking the road less traveled. Everyone rationalizes behavior they know, or should know, is wrong. You must be good at what you do, or you wouldn't be doing it. I wonder, however, what it is you say, as a woman, to young men who have an extremely warped masculine image. I also wonder how many of them would just as soon rape you and leave you for dead as listen to what you have to say. I've been to women's prisons and those inmates are stone-cold scary, let me tell you. I can't imagine what you have to go through. They are kids Joe. One or two over the years have looked pretty scary on sight, but there are always multiple guards and 2 or 3 victim assistance personnel there too. Most of them just look like kids. I don't know anything about them on a personal level, other than the first name on their name tag (stick on, no needle allowed ). I don't even know what crime they committed. I do know their behavior has to be rated at one of the better levels to be allowed to attend. I just tell them about Bethena -who she was and what she was like, I pass around a scrapbook I made of pictures of her from baby through school years, and tell them about what we experienced because she was murdered - victim impact. What they do with it is up to them. If the letters that are forwarded to me after I talk with them are any indication, it might make a difference with at least some of them. If it is ever even one tiny part of even one of them turning around, that is reason enough for me. That's justification enough. I certainly wouldn't want you to stop. I'm thinking the juvenile inmates out here, though, are much more cold-hearted. They're actually proud of their criminality and have resigned themselves to dying young. I wonder if anyone can reach them. I keep coming back to Maria Hicks who was killed just for honking her horn at some taggers. Have you met juveniles like that? HoneyFrostedPeanut or whatever asked me if I would commit murder if it were legal. When I think of Maria Hicks, I'm sure I could.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 25, 2009 16:52:56 GMT -6
HoneyFrostedPeanut or whatever asked me if I would commit murder if it were legal. When I think of Maria Hicks, I'm sure I could. I have a very succinct answer. I have been trained and will use Deadly Force when I deem it necessary. The following link provides the DOD guidance. www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/521056p.pdf
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Lady
Old Hand
Member of the Month - 9/08
I may live in Ohio but my heart belongs to the blue and the gold !
Posts: 659
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Post by Lady on Feb 25, 2009 17:03:41 GMT -6
Thanks. To this day she won't talk about those times with her kids. I wish she would. I'm not sure most inmates, particularly most murderers, juvenile or otherwise, are ashamed of their criminal acts. Remorse that isn't self-serving is hard to endure, and American culture isn't big on taking the road less traveled. Everyone rationalizes behavior they know, or should know, is wrong. You must be good at what you do, or you wouldn't be doing it. I wonder, however, what it is you say, as a woman, to young men who have an extremely warped masculine image. I also wonder how many of them would just as soon rape you and leave you for dead as listen to what you have to say. I've been to women's prisons and those inmates are stone-cold scary, let me tell you. I can't imagine what you have to go through. They are kids Joe. One or two over the years have looked pretty scary on sight, but there are always multiple guards and 2 or 3 victim assistance personnel there too. Most of them just look like kids. I don't know anything about them on a personal level, other than the first name on their name tag (stick on, no needle allowed ). I don't even know what crime they committed. I do know their behavior has to be rated at one of the better levels to be allowed to attend. I just tell them about Bethena -who she was and what she was like, I pass around a scrapbook I made of pictures of her from baby through school years, and tell them about what we experienced because she was murdered - victim impact. What they do with it is up to them. If the letters that are forwarded to me after I talk with them are any indication, it might make a difference with at least some of them. If it is ever even one tiny part of even one of them turning around, that is reason enough for me. I just want to say I think that is a wonderful thing you do Janet . Keep up the good work .
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 25, 2009 17:36:52 GMT -6
I have a very succinct answer. I have been trained and will use Deadly Force when I deem it necessary. Right, and you're a regular guy just like anyone else. You have the same free will and moral capacity as any murderer on death row. The difference is character. Nothing else. You have it. They chose not to have it. That's why murder offends me so, because it's easy to do, and easy to rationalize. It's not the evil of people from whom evil is expected that threatens society. Ordinary people can be just as evil. It only takes a decision.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 25, 2009 17:47:17 GMT -6
That is why I included the link to the DOD directive. It is a decision based on strict guidelines and extensive training. However, you are wrong; I am not a regular guy. The training defines and directs my actions and because of that, I must ensure I have followed it to the letter of the law. I do appreciate the positive appraisal of my character. I am sure there are others on the site that would disagree with you.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 25, 2009 18:01:56 GMT -6
Sorry got side tracked. Still trying to figure out this site.
Anyway, Dude over 27,000 posts; that's like 18 a day for four straight years.
You Rock!
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 25, 2009 18:27:19 GMT -6
Wow, so many well written posts from many. Wish I could give everyone a plus.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 25, 2009 18:31:31 GMT -6
Wow, so many well written posts from many. Wish I could give everyone a plus. Thanks teacher, can I have gold star
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Post by Stormyweather on Feb 25, 2009 18:44:39 GMT -6
Wow, so many well written posts from many. Wish I could give everyone a plus. Thanks teacher, can I have gold star Better yet, I can buy a star and name it after you.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 25, 2009 18:47:03 GMT -6
Thanks teacher, can I have gold star Better yet, I can buy a star and name it after you. I feel really special now!
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 25, 2009 19:16:51 GMT -6
Dude over 27,000 posts; that's like 18 a day for four straight years. You Rock! Thank you, but I rocketh not. I started out posting wa-a-ay too often, that's all. I'm just an old blowhard. Has it really been four years?
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 25, 2009 19:25:10 GMT -6
That is why I included the link to the DOD directive. It is a decision based on strict guidelines and extensive training. However, you are wrong; I am not a regular guy. The training defines and directs my actions and because of that, I must ensure I have followed it to the letter of the law. I do appreciate the positive appraisal of my character. I am sure there are others on the site that would disagree with you. I depend on people like you to defend my country. Whatever your beliefs about capital punishment, for or against, solid or wowie, I shall put you on a deserved pedestal. You, sir, have got my back. I don't say that about many. As such I think of you as still a regular guy, i.e. one of us, as opposed to a psychopath that can't be trained, and follows no moral code but his own, and therefore can't be trusted with a weapon. That is what I was trying to say.
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Feb 25, 2009 20:00:11 GMT -6
That is why I included the link to the DOD directive. It is a decision based on strict guidelines and extensive training. However, you are wrong; I am not a regular guy. The training defines and directs my actions and because of that, I must ensure I have followed it to the letter of the law. I do appreciate the positive appraisal of my character. I am sure there are others on the site that would disagree with you. I depend on people like you to defend my country. Whatever your beliefs about capital punishment, for or against, solid or wowie, I shall put you on a deserved pedestal. You, sir, have got my back. I don't say that about many. As such I think of you as still a regular guy, i.e. one of us, as opposed to a psychopath that can't be trained, and follows no moral code but his own, and therefore can't be trusted with a weapon. That is what I was trying to say. I am armed, but not dangerous - unless you are a bagel then watch out! And I understand what you were trying to say and will gladly watch your back. I don't say that to many.
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Post by Felix2 on Feb 26, 2009 4:15:33 GMT -6
After seeing bits of this thread yesterday, I decided to see what I could find out about the effects on children when parents are incarcerated offenders. What I found from reading about a dozen sources is that they are not necessarily better off just because they can visit the offender - that Lady is right it can cause more trauma and problems than even the death of that parent would, in a significant number of cases in the studies I read about. If you don't mind, Janet, I'd like to interject a little bit, since I have some personal experience relative to this issue. As you know, my present wife has done time in prison. At no time during her incarceration did she want her family members to visit, particularly her two children. She was too ashamed, no less so than after she turned herself in and went back to prison voluntarily after a parole violation. Now you can say she wanted her kids to stay away out of fear -- specifically the fear of having to explain to them why she was in prison. VSP, however, is a terrible place. She would have loved to see her children, if only for a few minutes, while she was there. I prefer to think she prevented the visits because she didn't want her kids to see her in such a place. Can anyone here blame her? I can't question the motives or wisdom of any murderer who wants his/her children to visit. I don't put anything past a murderer. I do question, though, the motives of anyone else would want anyone's kids to visit a murderer. I don't see how that can possibly benefit a child. Interesting considering you want to reduce the age of protection for children from potential sexual predators. I have always struggled with you in terms of consistency, its all over the place.
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Post by Kay on Feb 26, 2009 6:55:03 GMT -6
After seeing bits of this thread yesterday, I decided to see what I could find out about the effects on children when parents are incarcerated offenders. What I found from reading about a dozen sources is that they are not necessarily better off just because they can visit the offender - that Lady is right it can cause more trauma and problems than even the death of that parent would, in a significant number of cases in the studies I read about. A universal consensus seemed to be that the child who has the most stable and loving and supportive environment in their everyday life is less likely to have behavior problems, delinquency, falling grades, trauma issues, etc. - but there are a significant number who still do. So, to me at least, no one can automatically assume that the child is better off seeing the parent in prison. Is this really a surprise to anyone? I don't think it would be a surprise to most. The caregiver they have, that considers the child's needs first and foremost - that is the person that will help them to overcome the horrible experience of having a parent incarcerated, and still have a rewarding life. I wouldn't want any child to be prevented from seeing that parent if they want to. I would hope and pray their caregiver is allowing it for the right reasons - what the child needs, which may have nothing at all to do with what the offender wants. I do wish the scumpals and activists who are merely using them in their political agenda would leave them alone, and out of their arguments. That is what I find most disgusting of all - the way they will use them as political pawns. This isn't the first time we've witnessed that on this site, and on the murderer supporter websites as well. If only we did not have to miss our loved ones. If only the murderer's children that there may be never had to visit them in jail or know they were executed. If only the proven brutal vicious murderer had never done that in the first place - it is all on the murderer - no fault of the sentence that the law has imposed. That is an excellent post JBS. I remember when I first came to this site, Richard Cartwright was about to be executed. Pictures of he and his little girl were plastered all over the web. I thought at that time, how shameful it was to use her in that manner. As you stated, she was nothing but a pawn.
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Post by phatkat on Feb 26, 2009 7:48:09 GMT -6
Thanks. To this day she won't talk about those times with her kids. I wish she would. I'm not sure most inmates, particularly most murderers, juvenile or otherwise, are ashamed of their criminal acts. Remorse that isn't self-serving is hard to endure, and American culture isn't big on taking the road less traveled. Everyone rationalizes behavior they know, or should know, is wrong. You must be good at what you do, or you wouldn't be doing it. I wonder, however, what it is you say, as a woman, to young men who have an extremely warped masculine image. I also wonder how many of them would just as soon rape you and leave you for dead as listen to what you have to say. I've been to women's prisons and those inmates are stone-cold scary, let me tell you. I can't imagine what you have to go through. They are kids Joe. One or two over the years have looked pretty scary on sight, but there are always multiple guards and 2 or 3 victim assistance personnel there too. Most of them just look like kids. I don't know anything about them on a personal level, other than the first name on their name tag (stick on, no needle allowed ). I don't even know what crime they committed. I do know their behavior has to be rated at one of the better levels to be allowed to attend. I just tell them about Bethena -who she was and what she was like, I pass around a scrapbook I made of pictures of her from baby through school years, and tell them about what we experienced because she was murdered - victim impact. What they do with it is up to them. If the letters that are forwarded to me after I talk with them are any indication, it might make a difference with at least some of them. If it is ever even one tiny part of even one of them turning around, that is reason enough for me. I'm working right now with two teenagers who are on parole. Both have enormous rap sheets and were most recently locked up for violent offenses. I wish you could come talk to them!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 17:15:47 GMT -6
They are kids Joe. One or two over the years have looked pretty scary on sight, but there are always multiple guards and 2 or 3 victim assistance personnel there too. Most of them just look like kids. I don't know anything about them on a personal level, other than the first name on their name tag (stick on, no needle allowed ). I don't even know what crime they committed. I do know their behavior has to be rated at one of the better levels to be allowed to attend. I just tell them about Bethena -who she was and what she was like, I pass around a scrapbook I made of pictures of her from baby through school years, and tell them about what we experienced because she was murdered - victim impact. What they do with it is up to them. If the letters that are forwarded to me after I talk with them are any indication, it might make a difference with at least some of them. If it is ever even one tiny part of even one of them turning around, that is reason enough for me. I'm working right now with two teenagers who are on parole. Both have enormous rap sheets and were most recently locked up for violent offenses. I wish you could come talk to them! I keep finding myself saying the same thing here lately - I can't tell you how much that means to me. Thank you, Phatkat. I don't know if any of the facilities in your area are doing victim impact panels or not. But if you ever know of anyone who is trying to get that program started, I will be happy to look up the contacts for that TX program here. As recently as a couple of years ago, I know they were still sharing information on their experiences in running the programs to other jurisdictions - to help them get their own programs started.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2009 7:48:21 GMT -6
Wish I could have been there. I happen to know this woman. Her name is SueZann Bossler. I have meet her. She has suffered much, she has been in a coma for weeks, was stabbed in her head by her father's murderer. After all she has been through she is still very friendly and kind. Kind regards, Somebody PROOF. If you know this woman than you know of MVFFR. They are mentioned on this program time after time after time and members of this group are sitting beside her, hugging her, and giving her support, throughout the hearing and the whole TV program.
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Post by PIP on Feb 28, 2009 11:21:47 GMT -6
That is why I included the link to the DOD directive. It is a decision based on strict guidelines and extensive training. However, you are wrong; I am not a regular guy. The training defines and directs my actions and because of that, I must ensure I have followed it to the letter of the law. I do appreciate the positive appraisal of my character. I am sure there are others on the site that would disagree with you. Please indicate why "others" on this site would have a different assessment of your character than JoeDP, so that I can get a head start on hating you. Thanks, ~Pip
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 1, 2009 6:13:15 GMT -6
Please indicate why "others" on this site would have a different assessment of your character than JoeDP, so that I can get a head start on hating you. Thanks, ~Pip Feel free to go ahead and start your hatefest without me.
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Post by PIP on Mar 1, 2009 9:29:44 GMT -6
Please indicate why "others" on this site would have a different assessment of your character than JoeDP, so that I can get a head start on hating you. Thanks, ~Pip Feel free to go ahead and start your hatefest without me. Awe, that's no fun! I hate you! (totally kidding, if you can't tell yet)
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Post by SubSurfCPO(ret) on Mar 1, 2009 14:30:38 GMT -6
Feel free to go ahead and start your hatefest without me. Awe, that's no fun! I hate you! (totally kidding, if you can't tell yet) It's like being asked, "do I look fat in this?" It's a trap or a set-up for an argument. I have learned just to avoid it all together.
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Post by PIP on Mar 1, 2009 17:52:26 GMT -6
Awe, that's no fun! I hate you! (totally kidding, if you can't tell yet) It's like being asked, "do I look fat in this?" It's a trap or a set-up for an argument. I have learned just to avoid it all together. Do these pants make my a$$ look fat? ;D
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Post by Felix2 on Mar 2, 2009 6:28:40 GMT -6
It's like being asked, "do I look fat in this?" It's a trap or a set-up for an argument. I have learned just to avoid it all together. Do these pants make my a$$ look fat? ;D A bit like the two Muslim women coming out of the clotes shop when one asks the other "does my bomb look big in this"? ;D
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